green joblessness

[Albatross]

Text

"little fanfare this month, BP closed a solar-cell factory in Madrid, laying off 480 workers. But wait, aren't "green-collar" jobs the wave of the future -- the kind of employment that will only grow and "can't be outsourced," as President Obama likes to say?

Spain happens to be the country that the President often cites as his role model for the Green Jobs Revolution. It's also the source of an important new study that explains how expensive these jobs are -- and why Spain's renewable-energy business is a bubble waiting to burst. The study, released last month by researchers at Universidad Rey Juan Carlos, uses data from the Spanish government and European Union to demonstrate that each job created in Spain's renewables industry costs as much as 2.2 jobs elsewhere in the economy"

no wonder Sarkozy recently called the prime minister of Spain a moron;a socialist clown ,very suitable for Spain.:laugh:

 

[Strk]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but you're using a quote from Obama about jobs not being able to be outsourced (not saying that's true) and using jobs in Spain as your example?

For starters, you might want to consider Spain's economy. It's not a third-world country, but it is not one of the more wealthy countries in the EU. In fact, until the expansion, it was one of the largest recipients of EU aid.

To put it another way, if the EU was the US, Spain would be like one of our southern states. The 2.2 the cost of the typical job in their economy should be taken with a grain of salt. To a certain extent, it's like comparing pay in Massachusetts to Alabama. Spain didn't have the money in the first place.

Again looking at the US, look at Texas. It's doing fairly well. It's also #1 when it comes to renewable energy (specifically, wind).

 

[Albatross]

well,i dont really know or care about USA.but what this study show is that Spain is better of scraping the whole green parade,at least when it comes to goverment involvment.
adn nobody is really against green energy,but paying up to 10 times the market price is absurd.

 

[Genx87]

We will feel the sting of these green iniatives in the next 2 decades. Withour reluctance to build new nuclear power plants. Our only other options are wind, solar, and hydro. These produce very little energy compared to nuclear or coal.

One thing I dont understand about our green push into wind. Why not push solar? Solar panels on the roof tops of every home in America? Could take millions of homes off the grid freeing up energy for industry.

Instead we have entrenched interests in Wind who want to build a massive wind farm in the middle of the country that will cost billions and raise everybody's electric bill.

The job situation is interesting as well. We talk about creating high paying green jobs. But at what cost to avg America when the factory goes to Mexico due to energy costs?

 

[CADsortaGUY]

Originally posted by: Genx87
We will feel the sting of these green iniatives in the next 2 decades. Withour reluctance to build new nuclear power plants. Our only other options are wind, solar, and hydro. These produce very little energy compared to nuclear or coal.

One thing I dont understand about our green push into wind. Why not push solar? Solar panels on the roof tops of every home in America? Could take millions of homes off the grid freeing up energy for industry.

Instead we have entrenched interests in Wind who want to build a massive wind farm in the middle of the country that will cost billions and raise everybody's electric bill.

The job situation is interesting as well. We talk about creating high paying green jobs. But at what cost to avg America when the factory goes to Mexico due to energy costs?

My electricity hasn't gone up and we've been putting up windmills here in Iowa non-stop for the last 8 years. At the moment we're #2 behind Texas in wind power as we just passed California. MidAmerican Energy (my utility) gets 15% of it's power from Wind now. That's pretty impressive IMO.

I do agree that if people put a couple panels on their roof, it would lessen the deman considerably but costs are prohibitive for small systems due to the converters, Batteries, etc. I looked into it and I could easily cut my electric bill to 0(net for the year) by going solar - but I don't have the thousands and thousands of $ to invest in it at the moment.

 

[Genx87]

I dont know what you are doing in Iowa but MN is mandating 20% renewable by 2020. This will be accomplished by erecting Windmills near pipstone in the SW corner. The state had a an opt out within its proposal if energy costs went up by 30% the mandate could be eased. This was taken out by the legislatures. Which tells me they expect it could reach that level and dont want it getting in the way of progress.

That said are there any subsidies from the state to windfarms to hide the cost? Like ethanol producers who sell their product at the pump near the cost of pure gasoline with a subsidy from the states and feds. So it appears the cost isnt any lower.

If they can actually do it without raising our bills or subsidizing I'll be impressed.

 

[Hacp]

The only "green" source of energy is nuclear energy. Cheap, reliable, and safe nuclear energy. Too bad the democrats scrapped Yucca Mountain.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Strk
Maybe I'm missing something here, but you're using a quote from Obama about jobs not being able to be outsourced (not saying that's true) and using jobs in Spain as your example?

For starters, you might want to consider Spain's economy. It's not a third-world country, but it is not one of the more wealthy countries in the EU. In fact, until the expansion, it was one of the largest recipients of EU aid.

To put it another way, if the EU was the US, Spain would be like one of our southern states. The 2.2 the cost of the typical job in their economy should be taken with a grain of salt. To a certain extent, it's like comparing pay in Massachusetts to Alabama. Spain didn't have the money in the first place.

Again looking at the US, look at Texas. It's doing fairly well. It's also #1 when it comes to renewable energy (specifically, wind).

You are not missing anything.

It's an opinion piece from WSJ-Europe.

Originally posted by: albatross
well,i dont really know or care about USA.but what this study show is that Spain is better of scraping the whole green parade,at least when it comes to goverment involvment..

Oh, really? Perhaps since you know what the study shows you could give us a little more detail. A few links, maybe?

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Strk
Maybe I'm missing something here, but you're using a quote from Obama about jobs not being able to be outsourced (not saying that's true) and using jobs in Spain as your example?

For starters, you might want to consider Spain's economy. It's not a third-world country, but it is not one of the more wealthy countries in the EU. In fact, until the expansion, it was one of the largest recipients of EU aid.

To put it another way, if the EU was the US, Spain would be like one of our southern states. The 2.2 the cost of the typical job in their economy should be taken with a grain of salt. To a certain extent, it's like comparing pay in Massachusetts to Alabama. Spain didn't have the money in the first place.

Again looking at the US, look at Texas. It's doing fairly well. It's also #1 when it comes to renewable energy (specifically, wind).

You are not missing anything.

It's an opinion piece from WSJ-Europe.

Originally posted by: albatross
well,i dont really know or care about USA.but what this study show is that Spain is better of scraping the whole green parade,at least when it comes to goverment involvment..

Oh, really? Perhaps since you know what the study shows you could give us a little more detail. A few links, maybe?

well,why bother..since you know is an opinion piece from the evil WSJ...

 

[BudAshes]

are you anti environment or something? seriously wtf is your point. Jobs wont help us when there is no oil left and the ocean is full of plastic.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: BudAshes
are you anti environment or something? seriously wtf is your point. Jobs wont help us when there is no oil left and the ocean is full of plastic.

It'll be a long time before the ocean is filled with plastic. We have enough land to fill thousands of years worth of plastic and still have farms and housing. Oil isn't even needed. There is an almost unlimited supply of nucelar fuel. Granted, the easy stuff has a 100 year supply limit, but everything else still nets energy. We can easily convert electricity into oil through chemical reactions.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: BudAshes
are you anti environment or something? seriously wtf is your point. Jobs wont help us when there is no oil left and the ocean is full of plastic.

i pointed out a fact:americans here interpret everything through their own internal disputes like this is an attack on Obama or smth.yes we should use green energy when it makes sense

 

[Dari]

Jobs like these are loss-making at first. Hence, it is best that the government funds them. This is true for almost all new technology.

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: albatross ~ ~ ~ ~

well,why bother..since you know is an opinion piece from the evil WSJ...

So.

You got nuthin'. You represent:

what this study show is that Spain is better of scraping the whole green parade,at least when it comes to goverment involvment

And you (apparently) have not read the study, nor are you willing to provide any other additional information or links after starting this thread. You have an opinion on an opinion, neither of which is substantiated in any way, from which you deduce ""gov't involvement"" in ""the whole green parade"" be scrapped.

Gotcha.

 

[Albatross]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: albatross ~ ~ ~ ~

well,why bother..since you know is an opinion piece from the evil WSJ...

So.

You got nuthin'. You represent:

what this study show is that Spain is better of scraping the whole green parade,at least when it comes to goverment involvment

And you (apparently) have not read the study, nor are you willing to provide any other additional information or links after starting this thread. You have an opinion on an opinion, neither of which is substantiated in any way, from which you deduce ""gov't involvement"" in ""the whole green parade"" be scrapped.

Gotcha.

you can find it for yourself. lots of other details,how a big steel conglomerate planned to outsource some of its production facilities because of the increase in electricity price and brownouts,also mentions that in the USA the same scenario might not play in the same way ,etc.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: albatross
you can find it for yourself. lots of other details,how a big steel conglomerate planned to outsource some of its production facilities because of the increase in electricity price and brownouts,also mentions that in the USA the same scenario might not play in the same way ,etc.

From what I have heard its actually takes MORE red tape now to build a coal plant then it does to build a nuclear plant due to all the environmental issues. But the current administration hates both forms of electricity generation (even though they account for 75% of our electricity). And its likely only a very few coal and nuke plants will be built in the next 10 years at which point brownouts and massive prices increases would have to be expected.

There is really only ONE form of "green power" that us even worth mentioning and that is wind. The others like biomass and solar are 2-10 times as expensive as coal and nuclear and i really don't see people beign in favor of their electricity prices quadrupling any time soon. Wind is somewhere betwoo 0%-100% more expensive than conventional power depending on where you live. If you live in north Dakota in might actually make some sense, but only a few places in the USA can produce wind power economically, and many of those places cannot be built on due to environmental laws (like on the top of ridge lines in Smoky Mountain National Park near here). Plus, wind can never be more than 15-20% of generation because you can't depend on it and have to have 100% backing for all wind turbines. In other words if you build 100MW of wind turbines you also have to build a 100MW natural gas plant to run when the wind ain't blowing.

 

[jpeyton]

Screw green jobs. Slash and burn this planet for profit.

:roll:

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: Hacp
The only "green" source of energy is nuclear energy. Cheap, reliable, and safe nuclear energy. Too bad the democrats scrapped Yutica Mountain.

You get points for saying nuclear power is safe and mentioning Yutica mountain in the same paragraph.


Not that I disagree that nuclear is the way to go, but I thought your post was funny when I read it.

 

[glenn1]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Screw green jobs. Slash and burn this planet for profit.

:roll:

Nah, I'd rather close all industry here in the U.S. and send those union jobs to China so that we won't pollute the environment with CO2. That'll also lower demand for energy here in the U.S.

 

[Fear No Evil]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Screw green jobs. Slash and burn this planet for profit.

:roll:

Sounds good to me.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Screw green jobs. Slash and burn this planet for profit.

:roll:

maybe its just me, but I don't give two shits about "the environment" except how it can help man. I would kill every little fluffy bunny and pour oil on every stupid bird if it meant saving one human life.

I dunno, I know some people "find God" looking at a beautiful peaceful lake, or a baby deer playing in the trees or something. but for me what gets me off is driving by an oil refinery, or a nuclear plant, or any sort of construction site and seeing how MAN can dominate the landscape. I mean screw God, hes got superpowers so whats so impressive about what hes created, what really impresses me is when thousands of PEOPLE can accomplish something that can transforms this planet in a good way.

For example, some people get off on pictures like this: click

BrownTowns likes pictures like this: click or this

And the company BrownTown works for builds those sorts of thigns which is pretty cool .

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Screw green jobs. Slash and burn this planet for profit.

:roll:

maybe its just me, but I don't give two shits about "the environment" except how it can help man. I would kill every little fluffy bunny and pour oil on every stupid bird if it meant saving one human life.

I dunno, I know some people "find God" looking at a beautiful peaceful lake, or a baby deer playing in the trees or something. but for me what gets me off is driving by an oil refinery, or a nuclear plant, or any sort of construction site and seeing how MAN can dominate the landscape. I mean screw God, hes got superpowers so whats so impressive about what hes created, what really impresses me is when thousands of PEOPLE can accomplish something that can transforms this planet in a good way.

For example, some people get off on pictures like this: click

BrownTowns likes pictures like this: click or this

And the company BrownTown works for builds those sorts of thigns which is pretty cool .

So, why not try to get the stuff you like in a more sustainable way that helps protect places like Peyto Lake for the people who enjoy that? Win/win for everybody, provided it doesn't cost an excessive amount more to do that.

 

[imported_K3N]

Green energy, a race to the bottom.

 

[Acanthus]

There is nothing wrong with renewable energy, and as research in the field continues it will become more and more efficient.

Like others have said though, we still need a "core grid" of power though, because green energy is not enough.

Right now there are only 2 ways to go; Combustion and Fission.

We still need a great deal of both, and if we switch to full electric vehicles over the course of the next couple of decades electricity demand is going to skyrocket.

So its a debate on the merits of either which is for another thread.

 

[Jadow]

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: jpeyton
Screw green jobs. Slash and burn this planet for profit.

:roll:

maybe its just me, but I don't give two shits about "the environment" except how it can help man. I would kill every little fluffy bunny and pour oil on every stupid bird if it meant saving one human life.

I dunno, I know some people "find God" looking at a beautiful peaceful lake, or a baby deer playing in the trees or something. but for me what gets me off is driving by an oil refinery, or a nuclear plant, or any sort of construction site and seeing how MAN can dominate the landscape. I mean screw God, hes got superpowers so whats so impressive about what hes created, what really impresses me is when thousands of PEOPLE can accomplish something that can transforms this planet in a good way.

For example, some people get off on pictures like this: click

BrownTowns likes pictures like this: click or this

And the company BrownTown works for builds those sorts of thigns which is pretty cool .

Great Post!