Gtx 260 or 4870 1gb ?

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: toyota
yes SlowSpyder the 8.12 drivers came out and once again made the performance awash. I already mentioned that earlier in the thread about looking at old reviews. I seem to be about the only one in this thread that isnt full of crap or being misleading. this thread is full of people making ignorant comments that are baseless.


here are the FACTS

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in performance with CURRENT drivers

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in price

BOTH sides need to stop with the outright lies about performance AND price

I think everything I said completely supports that. I don't see any lies in what I posted. My reply was directed mostly at Wreckage who continues to post things that state the GTX260 is clearly the better card when that is simply not true. He is posting reviews of the GTX260 with it's performance driver vs. the 4870 with it's pre-performacne inhancement driver and basing his conclusions on that. That's why I posted all of the numbers from the AT GTX285 review. If you look at the numbers you can clearly see that the 4870 and GTX260 often perform very near one another, one sometimes faster then the other depending on the res and game. Sometimes the 4870 even pulls ahead of cards that are priced so that they are never meant to compete. The whole point of my above post is to point out that they are two very close card that, depending on the game and res, either could be faster then the next, but then at the next res or game the opposite is true.

 

[AstroManLuca]

So basically get whichever one you can find for cheaper, or if it has a better cooling design that you like or bundles a game you want.

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: toyota
yes SlowSpyder the 8.12 drivers came out and once again made the performance awash. I already mentioned that earlier in the thread about looking at old reviews. I seem to be about the only one in this thread that isnt full of crap or being misleading. this thread is full of people making ignorant comments that are baseless.


here are the FACTS

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in performance with CURRENT drivers

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in price

BOTH sides need to stop with the outright lies about performance AND price

I think everything I said completely supports that. I don't see any lies in what I posted. My reply was directed mostly at Wreckage who continues to post things that state the GTX260 is clearly the better card when that is simply not true. He is posting reviews of the GTX260 with it's performance driver vs. the 4870 with it's pre-performacne inhancement driver and basing his conclusions on that. That's why I posted all of the numbers from the AT GTX285 review. If you look at the numbers you can clearly see that the 4870 and GTX260 often perform very near one another, one sometimes faster then the other depending on the res and game. Sometimes the 4870 even pulls ahead of cards that are priced so that they are never meant to compete. The whole point of my above post is to point out that they are two very close card that, depending on the game and res, either could be faster then the next, but then at the next res or game the opposite is true.

only the first part of my post was directed towards you and you seem to be basically saying the same thing as me. people like LOUISSSSS and dguy6789 are the ones that are deceiving people with their BS about performance and price. comments like theirs are why I do my own research and look at unbiased reviews and current pricing without being deceived.

EDIT: I didnt notice that dguy6789 was referring just to that particular gtx260 card so sorry for that comment.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: toyota
yes SlowSpyder the 8.12 drivers came out and once again made the performance awash. I already mentioned that earlier in the thread about looking at old reviews. I seem to be about the only one in this thread that isnt full of crap or being misleading. this thread is full of people making ignorant comments that are baseless.


here are the FACTS

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in performance with CURRENT drivers

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in price

BOTH sides need to stop with the outright lies about performance AND price

I think everything I said completely supports that. I don't see any lies in what I posted. My reply was directed mostly at Wreckage who continues to post things that state the GTX260 is clearly the better card when that is simply not true. He is posting reviews of the GTX260 with it's performance driver vs. the 4870 with it's pre-performacne inhancement driver and basing his conclusions on that. That's why I posted all of the numbers from the AT GTX285 review. If you look at the numbers you can clearly see that the 4870 and GTX260 often perform very near one another, one sometimes faster then the other depending on the res and game. Sometimes the 4870 even pulls ahead of cards that are priced so that they are never meant to compete. The whole point of my above post is to point out that they are two very close card that, depending on the game and res, either could be faster then the next, but then at the next res or game the opposite is true.

only the first part of my post was directed towards you and you seem to be basically saying the same thing as me. people like dguy6789 are the ones that are deceiving people with their BS about performance and in his case price. comments like his are why I do my own research and look at unbiased reviews and current pricing without be deceived.

I believe what dguy6789 was saying is that the perticular GTX260 overclocked card that was being tested is near $300, not that all GTX260's are. And that they tested that factory overclocked card that costs more vs. a vanilla 4870, and did so with the Nvidia performance driver (180.47) vs. AMD's pre-performance driver (8.11). But I dont' want to talk for him, so I'll let him clear that up. But looking at the BFG overclocked GTX260's they seem to range from ~$250-$300+ on Newegg, so if that's the case he may not be so full of shit as you thought... but I don't see that perticular GTX260 for sale - small core OC, moderate shader OC, and pretty healthy memory oc.

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: toyota
yes SlowSpyder the 8.12 drivers came out and once again made the performance awash. I already mentioned that earlier in the thread about looking at old reviews. I seem to be about the only one in this thread that isnt full of crap or being misleading. this thread is full of people making ignorant comments that are baseless.


here are the FACTS

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in performance with CURRENT drivers

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in price

BOTH sides need to stop with the outright lies about performance AND price

I think everything I said completely supports that. I don't see any lies in what I posted. My reply was directed mostly at Wreckage who continues to post things that state the GTX260 is clearly the better card when that is simply not true. He is posting reviews of the GTX260 with it's performance driver vs. the 4870 with it's pre-performacne inhancement driver and basing his conclusions on that. That's why I posted all of the numbers from the AT GTX285 review. If you look at the numbers you can clearly see that the 4870 and GTX260 often perform very near one another, one sometimes faster then the other depending on the res and game. Sometimes the 4870 even pulls ahead of cards that are priced so that they are never meant to compete. The whole point of my above post is to point out that they are two very close card that, depending on the game and res, either could be faster then the next, but then at the next res or game the opposite is true.

only the first part of my post was directed towards you and you seem to be basically saying the same thing as me. people like dguy6789 are the ones that are deceiving people with their BS about performance and in his case price. comments like his are why I do my own research and look at unbiased reviews and current pricing without be deceived.

I believe what dguy6789 was saying is that the perticular GTX260 overclocked card that was being tested is near $300, not that all GTX260's are. And that they tested that factory overclocked card that costs more vs. a vanilla 4870, and did so with the Nvidia performance driver (180.47) vs. AMD's pre-performance driver (8.11). But I dont' want to talk for him, so I'll let him clear that up. But looking at the BFG overclocked GTX260's they seem to range from ~$250-$300+ on Newegg, so if that's the case he may not be so full of shit as you thought... but I don't see that perticular GTX260 for sale - small core OC, moderate shader OC, and pretty healthy memory oc.

well then I apologize for my comment about him because I didnt notice that he was referring just to that particular gtx260 model.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

I believe what dguy6789 was saying is that the perticular GTX260 overclocked card that was being tested is near $300, not that all GTX260's are. And that they tested that factory overclocked card that costs more vs. a vanilla 4870, and did so with the Nvidia performance driver (180.47) vs. AMD's pre-performance driver (8.11). But I dont' want to talk for him, so I'll let him clear that up. But looking at the BFG overclocked GTX260's they seem to range from ~$250-$300+ on Newegg, so if that's the case he may not be so full of shit as you thought... but I don't see that perticular GTX260 for sale - small core OC, moderate shader OC, and pretty healthy memory oc.

The Xbit labs review I linked used the 8.12 drivers. I also linked to a card clocked higher than the BFG for $199. So that negates both your points I do believe.

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: toyota
yes SlowSpyder the 8.12 drivers came out and once again made the performance awash. I already mentioned that earlier in the thread about looking at old reviews. I seem to be about the only one in this thread that isnt full of crap or being misleading. this thread is full of people making ignorant comments that are baseless.


here are the FACTS

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in performance with CURRENT drivers

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in price

BOTH sides need to stop with the outright lies about performance AND price

I think everything I said completely supports that. I don't see any lies in what I posted. My reply was directed mostly at Wreckage who continues to post things that state the GTX260 is clearly the better card when that is simply not true. He is posting reviews of the GTX260 with it's performance driver vs. the 4870 with it's pre-performacne inhancement driver and basing his conclusions on that. That's why I posted all of the numbers from the AT GTX285 review. If you look at the numbers you can clearly see that the 4870 and GTX260 often perform very near one another, one sometimes faster then the other depending on the res and game. Sometimes the 4870 even pulls ahead of cards that are priced so that they are never meant to compete. The whole point of my above post is to point out that they are two very close card that, depending on the game and res, either could be faster then the next, but then at the next res or game the opposite is true.

only the first part of my post was directed towards you and you seem to be basically saying the same thing as me. people like LOUISSSSS and dguy6789 are the ones that are deceiving people with their BS about performance and price. comments like theirs are why I do my own research and look at unbiased reviews and current pricing without being deceived.

I'm deceiving people? What a joke. Either your reading comprehension or your memory is lacking. I already said earlier on in this thread that the OP should get whichever card is cheaper. All I did was reply(sarcastically) with the same opinionated, biased nonsense that Wreckage keeps posting. You seem to be totally okay with it when he posts it, but when I do it, I'm deceiving people.(Even when I am obviously not serious) He's posted links to reviews, but of course he only posted ones that agree with his opinion. Arguing performance, image quality, drivers, or features for either one of these cards is a waste of time. It's a complete tossup.

A higher clocked GTX 260 Core 216 than the one in the review for $199 is a great purchase.

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: dguy6789

Originally posted by: toyota

Originally posted by: SlowSpyder

Originally posted by: toyota
yes SlowSpyder the 8.12 drivers came out and once again made the performance awash. I already mentioned that earlier in the thread about looking at old reviews. I seem to be about the only one in this thread that isnt full of crap or being misleading. this thread is full of people making ignorant comments that are baseless.


here are the FACTS

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in performance with CURRENT drivers

BOTH the 4870 1gb and gtx260 216sp are about equal in price

BOTH sides need to stop with the outright lies about performance AND price

I think everything I said completely supports that. I don't see any lies in what I posted. My reply was directed mostly at Wreckage who continues to post things that state the GTX260 is clearly the better card when that is simply not true. He is posting reviews of the GTX260 with it's performance driver vs. the 4870 with it's pre-performacne inhancement driver and basing his conclusions on that. That's why I posted all of the numbers from the AT GTX285 review. If you look at the numbers you can clearly see that the 4870 and GTX260 often perform very near one another, one sometimes faster then the other depending on the res and game. Sometimes the 4870 even pulls ahead of cards that are priced so that they are never meant to compete. The whole point of my above post is to point out that they are two very close card that, depending on the game and res, either could be faster then the next, but then at the next res or game the opposite is true.

only the first part of my post was directed towards you and you seem to be basically saying the same thing as me. people like LOUISSSSS and dguy6789 are the ones that are deceiving people with their BS about performance and price. comments like theirs are why I do my own research and look at unbiased reviews and current pricing without being deceived.

I'm deceiving people? What a joke. Either your reading comprehension or your memory is lacking. I already said earlier on in this thread that the OP should get whichever card is cheaper. All I did was reply(sarcastically) with the same opinionated, biased nonsense that Wreckage keeps posting. You seem to be totally okay with it when he posts it, but when I do it, I'm deceiving people.(Even when I am obviously not serious) He's posted links to reviews, but of course he only posted ones that agree with his opinion. Arguing performance, image quality, drivers, or features for either one of these cards is a waste of time. It's a complete tossup.

sorry about that and I was just editing my comment to apologize for that. I didnt realize you were referring to that one particular card when you mentioned price.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: dguy6789

I'm deceiving people? What a joke. Either your reading comprehension or your memory is lacking. I already said earlier on in this thread that the OP should get whichever card is cheaper. All I did was reply(sarcastically) with the same opinionated, biased nonsense that Wreckage keeps posting. You seem to be totally okay with it when he posts it, but when I do it, I'm deceiving people.(Even when I am obviously not serious) He's posted links to reviews, but of course he only posted ones that agree with his opinion. Arguing performance, image quality, drivers, or features for either one of these cards is a waste of time. It's a complete tossup.

I posted 4 separate reviews that give the edge to the 260+ Feel free to link to 4 others that do not. How is arguing features a wasted of time? I suppose only if 1 card lacks features it would not be worth discussing.

So far I have backed up everything I have said, if only my detractors would do the same.

 

[dguy6789]

No worries, I probably could have made it more clear anyway. $199 for the card Wreckage linked is a very good deal, I imagine it would be very hard to find a similar performing AMD card for the money.

 

[dguy6789]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: dguy6789

I'm deceiving people? What a joke. Either your reading comprehension or your memory is lacking. I already said earlier on in this thread that the OP should get whichever card is cheaper. All I did was reply(sarcastically) with the same opinionated, biased nonsense that Wreckage keeps posting. You seem to be totally okay with it when he posts it, but when I do it, I'm deceiving people.(Even when I am obviously not serious) He's posted links to reviews, but of course he only posted ones that agree with his opinion. Arguing performance, image quality, drivers, or features for either one of these cards is a waste of time. It's a complete tossup.

I posted 4 separate reviews that give the edge to the 260+ Feel free to link to 4 others that do not. How is arguing features a wasted of time? I suppose only if 1 card lacks features it would not be worth discussing.

So far I have backed up everything I have said, if only my detractors would do the same.

Until PhysX, DX10.1, Cuda, and other stuff become more widely used, I don't think they are worth discussing. Performance is pretty much the only real difference between the cards and that's not a very big difference in either.(Many would agree with me) Back in the day, people argued for pages on forums about if SM3.0 and HDR of the 6800 cards was worth while. The cards were obsolete before those features really mattered in modern games. I figure the same thing will happen here for the most part. From what I have read, developers are just about ready to skip DX10 and 10.1 and go to 11.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: dguy6789

I'm deceiving people? What a joke. Either your reading comprehension or your memory is lacking. I already said earlier on in this thread that the OP should get whichever card is cheaper. All I did was reply(sarcastically) with the same opinionated, biased nonsense that Wreckage keeps posting. You seem to be totally okay with it when he posts it, but when I do it, I'm deceiving people.(Even when I am obviously not serious) He's posted links to reviews, but of course he only posted ones that agree with his opinion. Arguing performance, image quality, drivers, or features for either one of these cards is a waste of time. It's a complete tossup.

I posted 4 separate reviews that give the edge to the 260+ Feel free to link to 4 others that do not. How is arguing features a wasted of time? I suppose only if 1 card lacks features it would not be worth discussing.

So far I have backed up everything I have said, if only my detractors would do the same.

LULZ!!!

HD4870 1GB beats GTX260 in 4 out of 6 game tests

HD4870 beats GTX260 in 6 out of 8 game tests

HD4870 beats GTX260 in 5 out of 8 game tests

Hd4870 beats GTX260 in 9 out of 14 game tests

Damn, it is so easy to find benchmarks! One card clearly isn't better than the other, and that is a fact. Want to hear another fact? In a few games the 4870 is faster than the GTX280! OMG! No way! And the GTX260 is never faster than the 280. Hard to believe, right?

Man, I could keep posting benchmarks too...

 

[toyota]

Originally posted by: cusideabelincoln

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: dguy6789

I'm deceiving people? What a joke. Either your reading comprehension or your memory is lacking. I already said earlier on in this thread that the OP should get whichever card is cheaper. All I did was reply(sarcastically) with the same opinionated, biased nonsense that Wreckage keeps posting. You seem to be totally okay with it when he posts it, but when I do it, I'm deceiving people.(Even when I am obviously not serious) He's posted links to reviews, but of course he only posted ones that agree with his opinion. Arguing performance, image quality, drivers, or features for either one of these cards is a waste of time. It's a complete tossup.

I posted 4 separate reviews that give the edge to the 260+ Feel free to link to 4 others that do not. How is arguing features a wasted of time? I suppose only if 1 card lacks features it would not be worth discussing.

So far I have backed up everything I have said, if only my detractors would do the same.

LULZ!!!

HD4870 1GB beats GTX260 in 4 out of 6 game tests

HD4870 beats GTX260 in 6 out of 8 game tests

HD4870 beats GTX260 in 5 out of 8 game tests

Hd4870 beats GTX260 in 9 out of 14 game tests

Damn, it is so easy to find benchmarks! One card clearly isn't better than the other, and that is a fact. Want to hear another fact? In a few games the 4870 is faster than the GTX280! OMG! No way! And the GTX260 is never faster than the 280. Hard to believe, right?

Man, I could keep posting benchmarks too...

just so you know that techpowerup review only used the 192sp gtx260. you can look at their separate review of the 216sp gtx260 and see that the old 192sp numbers are the ones in that review you linked too.

either way yes its just a wash except for the rare occasion when the 4870 1gb matches the gtx280.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Yeh, and they only used the 512MB HD4870 as well. So it's a wash.

 

[josh6079]

If it's any consolation, I myself was just in this situation. I couldn't quite decide between the 260 core 216 or the 4870 1 GB. Ultimately it came down to very minor differences and personal preferences.

Since performance and price between the cards are so similar, my decision was based on a combination of image quality differences and games I primarily play (or plan to shortly).

I decided on the 55 nm 260 core 216 in the end in light of the aforementioned criteria. Something to note was how much easier coming to a decision was without arguments chiming in concerning which card was 1-5 frames faster. Once you know the general window of where your performance will be, it's just a matter of investigating which card has the best image quality for the games you play.

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: Wreckage
So now a 4870 surpasses a 280 :roll:

Your reviews are very old, the reviews that cusideabelincoln posted uses newer drivers which improve performance for both cards, and yes, the HD 4870 sometimes surpasses the GTX 280 in some scenarios like in GRID, so stop being a troll and an nvidia fanboy, it's sickening.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: dguy6789

I'm deceiving people? What a joke. Either your reading comprehension or your memory is lacking. I already said earlier on in this thread that the OP should get whichever card is cheaper. All I did was reply(sarcastically) with the same opinionated, biased nonsense that Wreckage keeps posting. You seem to be totally okay with it when he posts it, but when I do it, I'm deceiving people.(Even when I am obviously not serious) He's posted links to reviews, but of course he only posted ones that agree with his opinion. Arguing performance, image quality, drivers, or features for either one of these cards is a waste of time. It's a complete tossup.

I posted 4 separate reviews that give the edge to the 260+ Feel free to link to 4 others that do not. How is arguing features a wasted of time? I suppose only if 1 card lacks features it would not be worth discussing.

So far I have backed up everything I have said, if only my detractors would do the same.

But the reviews that I looked at from you were pretty skewed (I didnt't look at all of them, but the ones I did were not an even playing field). You haven't replied to my post of AT's GTX285 review. In it you can clearly see that the 4870 is a good match for the GTX260 and vice versa. In the selection of games they tested, the 4870 even often pulls ahead of the GTX280 and even sometimes the GTX285. And, no. For the record I am not suggesting the 4870 is a compititor for the GTX280/285. What I am saying is that the 4870 is right around the GTX260 most of the time, and once in a while it is so much faster then the GTX260 that it pulls ahead of the GTX280 or even GTX285.

So if you have a couple cards like the 4870 and GTX260 that are right near each other in performance 80% of the time, but one of those cards is much faster 20% of the time (the 4870) that is capable of pulling ahead of much more expensive hardware, then assuming the price is close then I would say the 4870 is a pretty good buy.

With all that being said, an overclocked GTX260 for $199 is a hell of a deal.

OP, here is the Sapphire Toxic 1GB for $213.99: https://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=AT-487TX1G

My Sapphire Toxic maxes out CCC (820MHz) with room to go if I want, and my memory is at an effective 4650MHz. All while never going above 55C under full load.

Here is a plain 4870 1GB for $185 after rebates with free shipping: http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2271673&enterthread=y

Really, between the $199 GTX260, $214 Sapphire Toxic 4870 1GB, and the $185 HIS 4870 1GB I don't think you can go wrong here.

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: evolucion8

Originally posted by: Wreckage
So now a 4870 surpasses a 280 :roll:

Your reviews are very old, the reviews that cusideabelincoln posted uses newer drivers which improve performance for both cards, and yes, the HD 4870 sometimes surpasses the GTX 280 in some scenarios like in GRID, so stop being a troll and an nvidia fanboy, it's sickening.

He posted 2 reviews from the same site. 1 was from October (older than the ones I posted), 1 or more of them were using the old 260.

The xbit review I posted is only a few weeks old.

You keep swinging and missing. :thumbsup:

 

[SSChevy2001]

NM

 

[SSChevy2001]

Here' from the latest Xbit Review
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articl...tx285ssc_11.html#sect1

Also this is with the ATi 8.12 drivers NOT 9.1

Call of Duty: World at War
GTX260 Wins

Crysis Warhead * used info from 9.1 Review *
4870 Wins against GTX285

Enemy Territory: Quake Wars
GTX260 Wins ( also wins against 4850x2 @ 12x10 )

Far Cry 2
4870 Wins

Left 4 Dead
4870 Wins ( also wins against GTX280 @ 16x10 and 19x12 )

S.T.A.L.K.E.R.: Clear Sky
GTX260 Wins

Dead Space
GTX260 Wins against 4850x2 ( CF not working )

Devil May Cry 4
4870 Wins ( also wins against the GTX280 @ 19x12 )

Prince of Persia
GTX260 Wins

Fallout 3
4870 Wins against GTX285 SSC

Mass Effect
GTX260 Wins

Race Driver: GRID
4870 Wins against GTX280 ( also wins against GTX285 @ 12x10 )

X³: Terran Conflict
4870 Wins against GTX285 SSC

Red Alert 3
4870 Wins against GTX285 SSC

World in Conflict
GTX260 Wins

 

[SunnyD]

Thanks to Chevy's post - I think we can all agree - you can't really go wrong with either card. With 4870 1GB cards checking in at $180-$200 these days, and the GTX260's giving you things like PhysX, I'm sure we can all agree that you'll win with whichever card you pick, depending on your needs, wants and desires. Not quite sure what else can be said, other than "give it a rest people!"

 

[TC91]

I would like to add that ever since the geforce 8 series, nvidia has had better anisotropic filtering.

 

[SSChevy2001]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Thanks to Chevy's post

Thanks.

I edited post mixing the 9.1 driver scores. It only really helped in crysis warhead, but it gave the 4870 1GB the overall win 8 out of 15. It also showed the 4870 beating the GTX285 in crysis warhead.

 

[conlan]

Originally posted by: SunnyD
Thanks to Chevy's post - I think we can all agree - you can't really go wrong with either card. With 4870 1GB cards checking in at $180-$200 these days, and the GTX260's giving you things like PhysX, I'm sure we can all agree that you'll win with whichever card you pick, depending on your needs, wants and desires. Not quite sure what else can be said, other than "give it a rest people!"

Amen!

 

[evolucion8]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: evolucion8

Originally posted by: Wreckage
So now a 4870 surpasses a 280 :roll:

Your reviews are very old, the reviews that cusideabelincoln posted uses newer drivers which improve performance for both cards, and yes, the HD 4870 sometimes surpasses the GTX 280 in some scenarios like in GRID, so stop being a troll and an nvidia fanboy, it's sickening.

He posted 2 reviews from the same site. 1 was from October (older than the ones I posted), 1 or more of them were using the old 260.

The xbit review I posted is only a few weeks old.

You keep swinging and missing. :thumbsup:

You sir are an nVidia troll, read what SlowSpyder posted and shut up, both cards are excellent and that's it, GIVE IT A REST :roll: