GTX 580 Vs GTX 460's in SLI star in "What that extra 220 Dollars gets you"

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Seero

Golden Member
Nov 4, 2009
1,456
0
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I'd never get GTX580 in Sli without a 2560x1600 monitor but to each his own, I suppose!
That was true, but not anymore. You can have a single 580 at 1080p and still being a bottleneck due to tessellation and PhysX. It all depends on the game, which will be more demanding in the future. While you don't need SLI now, I will never say never. Especially when 3D vision is just around(I wonder why people will shoot for the biggest gun without it). While 3D movie is not round, 3D games are everywhere. 460SLI/580 can barely handle games that are out in 3D, but definitely can't max out big games like crysis2 and hawx2 under a single display. Note that consoles are also boarding the 3D ship, meaning that it will only get bigger and better, in 3D.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Not that I'm calling you out in particular, but where were these posts back when the 460 1GB came out? The entire board was flooded with suggestions that people should just SLI 460s until the cows came home. Now that the 580 is out, suddenly the multi GPU drawbacks are being talked about?

I agree with you, by the way, and this is why I'll never have a multi GPU setup.

Was there a thread about how crappy the 480 or 5870 were because 200 dollar cards in SLI\CF were cheaper and performed better? The only threads I remember were dealing with the 5970. Which is just CF on a single card. I couldnt care less in that argument. I have said the above a bunch of times. Why I wont go SLI is for those reasons.
 

tyl998

Senior member
Aug 30, 2010
236
0
0
Was there a thread about how crappy the 480 or 5870 were because 200 dollar cards in SLI\CF were cheaper and performed better? The only threads I remember were dealing with the 5970. Which is just CF on a single card. I couldnt care less in that argument. I have said the above a bunch of times. Why I wont go SLI is for those reasons.
I think when a lot of people recommended the $200 cards in SLI they were implying that it's more performance for the buck compared to the top ends at the time like the 480.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
81
Was there a thread about how crappy the 480 or 5870 were because 200 dollar cards in SLI\CF were cheaper and performed better? The only threads I remember were dealing with the 5970. Which is just CF on a single card. I couldnt care less in that argument. I have said the above a bunch of times. Why I wont go SLI is for those reasons.

Well there was discussion about how the GTX480/HD5870 weren't much faster than the 295/4870X2, and sometimes were slower (obviously excluding the DX11 aspect) as well.
 

Aristotelian

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,246
11
76
Was there a thread about how crappy the 480 or 5870 were because 200 dollar cards in SLI\CF were cheaper and performed better? The only threads I remember were dealing with the 5970. Which is just CF on a single card. I couldnt care less in that argument. I have said the above a bunch of times. Why I wont go SLI is for those reasons.

I remember one or two threads and lots of posts containing comparisons between GTX460 1GB SLI and 5870 (before 5870s price came down- huge bang for the buck commentaries). However, there were not so many (threads I recall 0, and a few posts) containing 460SLI versus 480 comparisons. I was just wondering why people who were really pushing the GTX460 (not saying you're one of them) in SLI aren't doing the same for other cards versus the 580. Now, apparently, the negatives of multi GPU outweigh the benefits. I wish post histories went back farther so I could produce the quotes, but I'm certainly not mis-remembering what happened.

In any case for me, and you it seems, we'd go with the 580 anyway. I wonder if some of the cons of multi GPU are surmountable (such as microstutter, for instance, which simply kills the experience for me).
 

JM Popaleetus

Senior member
Oct 1, 2010
375
47
91
heatware.com
This thread is making me double-think myself.



Unless something better for $150-$180 or $350 altogether is going to come out...is there any reason why I shouldn't jump on this? Especially with how well these cards OC (which also completely rules out 6870s in CF IMHO).

I would think that setup could also get me through the next 4-5 years are so (I'm not a graphics whore, I don't mind running on low if I have to).
 

cusideabelincoln

Diamond Member
Aug 3, 2008
3,274
41
91
Not that I'm calling you out in particular, but where were these posts back when the 460 1GB came out? The entire board was flooded with suggestions that people should just SLI 460s until the cows came home. Now that the 580 is out, suddenly the multi GPU drawbacks are being talked about?

I agree with you, by the way, and this is why I'll never have a multi GPU setup.

I don't think it was quite the entire board. I believe it was just happy_medium (maybe a few others, but I can't recall them) posting, a lot, about how much 460 SLI rules.
 

Arkadrel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2010
3,681
2
0
This thread is making me double-think myself.



Unless something better for $150-$180 or $350 altogether is going to come out...is there any reason why I shouldn't jump on this? Especially with how well these cards OC (which also completely rules out 6870s in CF IMHO).

I would think that setup could also get me through the next 4-5 years are so (I'm not a graphics whore, I don't mind running on low if I have to).


Honestly 6850 CF is kicking the 580s butt in almost anything if you dont game at 2560x1200 resolution. And you cant really get a 580 for 343$... so its a good deal.
 

Aristotelian

Golden Member
Jan 30, 2010
1,246
11
76
I don't think it was quite the entire board. I believe it was just happy_medium (maybe a few others, but I can't recall them) posting, a lot, about how much 460 SLI rules.

Our claims are compatible. I wasn't claiming that a vast number of people were doing it, just that there were lots of posts (covering the board), particularly from Nvidia enthusiasts on the topic. I recall times where there wasn't a single AMD thread that didn't have 'forget 5850, go 460' or 'forget 5870, go 460' or 'forget crossfire, go 460 sli' and almost none of this was mirrored in GTX480 threads, even though it was and is more expensive than the 5870. That's what I was getting at: lots of those kinds of posts, and I don't think it was just happy_medium doing it, though he might have been the most vocal.

Now I'm seeing some hesitation regarding multi-gpu setups pervade the forums, and it just feels like a far different sentiment to when 460 SLI was being brought up almost continually. Maybe I'm overly suspicious, but that this sentiment coincides with the release of the 580 almost to the day of the reviews, strikes me as odd. My memory of the past could be exaggerated, but I think some people (including happy) got a vacation for that sort of thing. Maybe he can help jog my memory a bit.
 

notty22

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2010
3,375
0
0
Most of the hype with gtx 460SLI was because it could compare with the 5970. Dual gpu to dual gpu. Forget the 5870, there are o/c articles where a single gtx 460 competes with the 5870.
 

RussianSensation

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2003
19,458
765
126
Forget the 5870, there are o/c articles where a single gtx 460 competes with the 5870.

Exactly. A single GTX460 @ 900mhz could beat an HD5870 and come pretty close to an overclocked HD5870. So when you got a 2nd GTX460 for not much more $ compared to $350+ HD5870s, you were looking at about 90-95% of the performnace if SLI didn't scale at all, and another +60/70% performance when SLI did scale.

In this case, HD6850 CF is sometimes faster, sometimes about the same, but costs a whooping $150 less. That's a heck of a deal. The GTX460 SLI destroyed the HD5870 in almost all cases at the same price too. In both examples, the higher end card was "worse value". Even now you can get 2x GTX470s or HD6870 CF which are miles > GTX580 if you have a decent PSU. Highest single-GPU card performance always costs a premium.

I think the market for a $500 GTX580 are people who don't have dual PCIe slots, don't want multi-GPU setups, or are planning to go GTX580 SLI right away or eventually.
 
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notty22

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2010
3,375
0
0
There is a premium for a flagship gpu, the gtx 580 can be paired up with another for a untouchable performance level. All gpu's depend on drivers for their performance. Dual gpu's rely on them even further. Thats one of the drawbacks. Windowed performance is single gpu only as well.
Equal performance does not mean equal value always. , also m/b-chipset-bios performance effects dual gpus. When it all works well its great.
Single gpu- has much less complexity giving the user a better experience. Especially for some users.
 

cody_horner

Member
Oct 25, 2010
35
0
0
Look boys - a single card IMO always places ahead of dual cards in value. I don't care what benchmark you show me, a top-of-the-line single card is always better for general usage.

Here's why:
- not every game supports, or runs SLI/CF bug free
- not every game scales well with SLI/CF
- you need to push it with higher work loads to see most of the benefit. Sometimes, you're just not running a high enough resolution to make a difference versus a single card
- 2x lower value cards usually have less VRAM, which in a lot of cases is a bottleneck in itself for higher resolution. You're kind of fighting fire with fire if that make sense
- 2x the heat and power during load and idle (though ATI does more nifty throttling on the second GPU, there's still a 2nd GPU plugged in)
- do you really need 2 entire GPU's present in your system? What a waste.

Need I say more? I can't believe how many people are falling for the SLI bullshit (pardon my french). It's 90% marketing ploy, 10% useful in very specific scenarios.

I don't care what two cards are cheaper when SLI'ed for so called better performance - I'll take my lone GTX580 any day.
 

Jdawg84

Senior member
Feb 6, 2010
256
0
0
This makes me wonder what Nvidia is going to do with the 560's. Full 384 shaders? If only they would support TRI
 

JM Popaleetus

Senior member
Oct 1, 2010
375
47
91
heatware.com
Look boys - a single card IMO always places ahead of dual cards in value. I don't care what benchmark you show me, a top-of-the-line single card is always better for general usage.

Here's why:
- not every game supports, or runs SLI/CF bug free
- not every game scales well with SLI/CF
- you need to push it with higher work loads to see most of the benefit. Sometimes, you're just not running a high enough resolution to make a difference versus a single card
- 2x lower value cards usually have less VRAM, which in a lot of cases is a bottleneck in itself for higher resolution. You're kind of fighting fire with fire if that make sense
- 2x the heat and power during load and idle (though ATI does more nifty throttling on the second GPU, there's still a 2nd GPU plugged in)
- do you really need 2 entire GPU's present in your system? What a waste.

Need I say more? I can't believe how many people are falling for the SLI bullshit (pardon my french). It's 90% marketing ploy, 10% useful in very specific scenarios.

I don't care what two cards are cheaper when SLI'ed for so called better performance - I'll take my lone GTX580 any day.
As a student, I'll save my $220 and enjoy my 20+FPS that I'll get over a more expensive single card.

Microstuttering? It comes with the territory. I'll take my chances.

SLI was bullshit when it was first introduced, it's very real technology today.
 

Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
81
Look boys - a single card IMO always places ahead of dual cards in value. I don't care what benchmark you show me, a top-of-the-line single card is always better for general usage.

Here's why:
- not every game supports, or runs SLI/CF bug free
- not every game scales well with SLI/CF
- you need to push it with higher work loads to see most of the benefit. Sometimes, you're just not running a high enough resolution to make a difference versus a single card
- 2x lower value cards usually have less VRAM, which in a lot of cases is a bottleneck in itself for higher resolution. You're kind of fighting fire with fire if that make sense
- 2x the heat and power during load and idle (though ATI does more nifty throttling on the second GPU, there's still a 2nd GPU plugged in)
- do you really need 2 entire GPU's present in your system? What a waste.

Need I say more? I can't believe how many people are falling for the SLI bullshit (pardon my french). It's 90% marketing ploy, 10% useful in very specific scenarios.

I don't care what two cards are cheaper when SLI'ed for so called better performance - I'll take my lone GTX580 any day.

Even if it doesn't scale well every time, it can often scale well enough to outperform a single more expensive card.
It doesn't have that much less VRAM, and VRAM requirements depend more on resolution than anything. 2xHD6850 CF vs HD5870 (for example) you still have 1GB RAM per GPU, where's the loss?
Only vs a GTX480 or 580 does it become potentially significant, and only at some resolutions.
2x the power? Yes, of a single equivalent card. 2x the power of a higher end card? Hell no. Sometimes it can even use less power than a single higher end card (at load).

It's not for everyone, but it is often much better value than a single high end card, MUCH better, by often being cheaper AND faster AND it can even use less power. And if you play mainly a few games, then poor scaling in some games isn't a problem.
The last 4 games I've played? Team Fortress 2, Mafia 2, Starcraft 2 and Stalker COP. All of which either don't scale because they are CPU limited on my system, or are big titles and therefore do scale. Extending it, I'd be adding Mass Effect 2, BFBC2 and Dragon Age. All of which are big titles and AFAIK (not that I care since I got a P43 motherboard) are supported by multi-GPU solutions due to their AAA status.

It obviously has caveats, but so do most things.
Caveats of a single high end card?
-Power use (at least at the highest end in single GPU cards, particularly GTX480)
-Cost

Cost being the most significant one.
A single card is pretty much always more appealing, except it's also almost always more expensive, and that's pretty much the entire issue. SLI/CF offers the value proposition relative to a single GPU card, and that's what it's about. You buy it for high performance at a lower price, otherwise we'd all be running GTX580's, maybe even in SLI.

There is no single brush with which you can paint everyone, since everyone has their own situation and preferences. "General use" is all well and good until you start to ask what "general use" is to a gamer. It's playing their specific games, for which multi-GPU may work brilliantly every time and offer 25% more performance at 75% of the cost of a single GPU card.
 

happy medium

Lifer
Jun 8, 2003
14,387
480
126
I don't think it was quite the entire board. I believe it was just happy_medium (maybe a few others, but I can't recall them) posting, a lot, about how much 460 SLI rules.

Yes , it was me and I stand by that theory. It was 20% faster then gtx 480 and cost less. Scaling was very good and has gotten better. I also was talking about 1900x1080 ,not 2500x1600.

The 6850 crossfire numbers are no where near 20% faster then a gtx580. In this case its just not worth it. Then you have to factor in a new psu with your upgrade to sli'd gtx580's also, or the fact that adding another 6850 will probrobly suck in tri fire.

And honestly I dont trust CF drivers yet ,but there looking better.

Crossfire drivers were total crap at the time. Remember the gtx460's beating the 6870's?
Sli drivers as a whole are much more consistant than CF.
That is changing though, thank god.
 
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Lonyo

Lifer
Aug 10, 2002
21,938
6
81
Yes , it was me and I stand by that theory. It was 20% faster then gtx 480 and cost less. Scaling was very good and has gotten better. I also was talking about 1900x1080 ,not 2500x1600.

The 6850 crossfire numbers are no where near 20% faster then a gtx580. In this case its just not worth it. And honestly I dont trust CF drivers yet ,but there looking better.

Crossfire drivers were total crap at the time. Remember the gtx460's beating the 6870's?
Sli drivers as a whole are much more consistant than CF.
That is changing though, thank god.

CF HD6850 gives about 99% of the performance of a GTX580, while costing about 75% as much, which is where the value comes, thought being cheaper.
Or SLI GTX460 @ 101%/80% cost
 

tyl998

Senior member
Aug 30, 2010
236
0
0
As a student, I'll save my $220 and enjoy my 20+FPS that I'll get over a more expensive single card.

Microstuttering? It comes with the territory. I'll take my chances.

SLI was bullshit when it was first introduced, it's very real technology today.
What he said. Less money = good! 460 SLI works just fine for my own "general usage" which includes web browsing, sending email, and playing Alien vs Predator at max settings on 1920x1080 (my monitor won't go higher)
 
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