GTX780 or wait for AMD

[Eureka]

This type of pricing actually happens all the time. You are talking about the top 1% of gaming GPUs when you speak about 7950/7970/670/680/77/780/titan. Look at Porsche. It's double the price to go from a Carerra to a turbo (911).

These cards are not Camrys, they are high-end.

That aside, we are in the 'VC&G' forum, not the 'thrifty' forum. I totally get perf/$ (I like it too) but sometimes you just like to have the best, and you are willing to pay for it.

When I buy a pair of shoes, I get what I like. I don't say to myself that the $100 pair MUST be 2x the pair at $50. Is it 2x faster? Is it 2x as comfortable? That's just silly.

While I'm on with you about perf/$ (I hate this argument), there's a point where it just doesn't make sense any more.

The reason why premium items have premium costs are usually because they actually have more time and work put into it. Simply taking something that doesn't really cost much more and upping the price by placing a premium label on it does not make it special.

There's just as much engineering that goes into making say, the 770 or 7970 that goes into the Titan. Maybe a little more. But it does not translate into the high prices that the Titan demands over the 770 or 7970.

The reason why luxury cars cost more is because they have higher material, QC and labor costs. You're paying for the stiffer chassis, the nicer components and the labor to put it together.

The Titan is just another pick-and-placed card, the components are the same, the only real cost difference is in the price of silicon and the extra time it takes to design a bigger chip.

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

With summer coming on I'd say wait. Unless of course your summer consists of sitting in your moms basement playing WOW.

 

[hawtdawg]

If the 9970 is really going to be 20nm, then it will be spring of next year at the earliest before we see it. If they do a 28nm refresh, then I don't imagine their best card will be any better, or even as good as the 780.

 

[hawtdawg]

Buy a 780 or wait for AMD's new graphic cards?

Does anybody know when AMD's new cards will be coming out? Q3 2013? Q4 2013? Q1 2014?

And did they release any possible specs on the new cards too?!

these 9970 specs are based on that rumor from the SI board that was spread around as fact for several months. While it's not unbelievable, if AMD's next chip is similar to thes, then we won't see it until early-mid Q2 of 2014. Glofo and TSMC aren't going to have a 20nm process that would be suitable for GPU's before that point.

 

[sxr7171]

While I'm on with you about perf/$ (I hate this argument), there's a point where it just doesn't make sense any more.

The reason why premium items have premium costs are usually because they actually have more time and work put into it. Simply taking something that doesn't really cost much more and upping the price by placing a premium label on it does not make it special.

There's just as much engineering that goes into making say, the 770 or 7970 that goes into the Titan. Maybe a little more. But it does not translate into the high prices that the Titan demands over the 770 or 7970.

The reason why luxury cars cost more is because they have higher material, QC and labor costs. You're paying for the stiffer chassis, the nicer components and the labor to put it together.

The Titan is just another pick-and-placed card, the components are the same, the only real cost difference is in the price of silicon and the extra time it takes to design a bigger chip.

Not even extra silicon as I understand it. They are using the same GPU chip just parts of it disabled for the 780GTX.

In all fairness they should have made the Titan $799 on the day the 780GTX came out. But this being a flagship/status part they would rather not upset their most staunch and highest spending consumers by lowering its resale value.

So if you buy a Titan you are basically paying a part of the price to uphold a marketing policy and keeping resale values up for everyone.

I think Intel does the same with their "X" extreme series processors. They keep the price point just update the product to that point.

If someone wants to pay $350 for that last 5% then more power to them.

 

[Remobz]

I hope AMD cards are not toooo expensive like the titan was upon release.

 

[Pandamonia]

This type of pricing actually happens all the time. You are talking about the top 1% of gaming GPUs when you speak about 7950/7970/670/680/77/780/titan. Look at Porsche. It's double the price to go from a Carerra to a turbo (911).

These cards are not Camrys, they are high-end.

That aside, we are in the 'VC&G' forum, not the 'thrifty' forum. I totally get perf/$ (I like it too) but sometimes you just like to have the best, and you are willing to pay for it.

When I buy a pair of shoes, I get what I like. I don't say to myself that the $100 pair MUST be 2x the pair at $50. Is it 2x faster? Is it 2x as comfortable? That's just silly.

Im sorry but a video card is not a porche. Its not even a mondeo, not even ford mondeos get made obsolete within 6 months. Porche hasnt really changed for decades. This is real premium not some marketing hype premium that the nvidia staff whip up.

Video cards are mass market. Mass produced electronics built in the far east. The chip in the Titan is the same as the 780 GTX which means the 780 GTX CANNOT be premium by default. Its a broken chip with less VRAM. Its a substandard Titan chip. It is excluded from premium on this fact alone.

Im sorry but the Nvidia marketing team have done a real good job in brainwashing people. if you think 500m2 piece of silicon with a cheap fan and a 6 month shelf life is comparable to a porche then you have been well and truly brainwashed.

 

[KingFatty]

Well, I think you are bringing in a particular mindset, by saying that 780 GTX is somehow broken or not whole.

Why would you judge a chip like this, trying to compare it to some nirvana perfection?

Why not just look at the performance for the price? It's not a piece of artwork. It's a thing that does a job. If the chip gives you X performance for Y dollars, then great. I don't mind if the particular atoms of the crystal lattice are somehow not aligned with a mathematical ideal.

If the price/performance of a chip puts it into a premium category (e.g., 1% of the population), then I think that's accurate to call it that way.

 

[akugami]

Im sorry but a video card is not a porche. Its not even a mondeo, not even ford mondeos get made obsolete within 6 months. Porche hasnt really changed for decades. This is real premium not some marketing hype premium that the nvidia staff whip up.

Video cards are mass market. Mass produced electronics built in the far east. The chip in the Titan is the same as the 780 GTX which means the 780 GTX CANNOT be premium by default. Its a broken chip with less VRAM. Its a substandard Titan chip. It is excluded from premium on this fact alone.

Im sorry but the Nvidia marketing team have done a real good job in brainwashing people. if you think 500m2 piece of silicon with a cheap fan and a 6 month shelf life is comparable to a porche then you have been well and truly brainwashed.

I think you're taking the analogy a little too literal.

A video card is not "obsolete" in 6 months. It's still usable years after it is no longer for sale.

I haven't had much time to game with a family (3 kids now) and joining a startup which pretty much means I have no life. I'm still rocking a Radeon 4870 if that tells you anything. Can it run games with all the bells & whistles? No. But it runs ok if you tone the effects down. Hell, I'm happy with its performance in SC2: WoL and HoTS.

 

[Mombasa69]

There might be some threads about this already , but I didn't find so many.
NVIDIA just released the GTX780 and I am unsure about if I should get this or wait for AMD's new cards.
I currently have the Sapphire VAPOR-X 7970 Ghz, and some people think its fast enough but I dont. So I decided to sell it since there aren't coming any new games until end of August and either get the GTX780 or just use the built in gaming in my 3770k for surfing and movies until AMD releases a new card.

What do u guys think should I just get the EVGA GeForce GTX 780 3GB PhysX CUDA or wait for AMD? I read some rumors about theyre new 9970 and the specs seems extreme compared to the GTX780
http://gpuboss.com/gpus/Radeon-HD-9970-vs-GeForce-GTX-780

Do u guys really think the new 9970 will be such a beast compared to Titan and GTX780?

It will easily be as good as a 780 (and the Titan is only around 7% faster than a Titan, and like £350-450 more expensive, which is a total rip off imo)

I'm waiting for the Radeon 9970 (if that's what it will be named, and waiting to see how well it runs).

Don't waste cash on a new card right now, wait until October.

Also bear in mind 'DX11.2' ignore what people say, you'll most likely need a real DX11.2 card not one that can support bits of it. The next Radeon is rumoured to be a true DX11.2 card, and will run the next gen console ports guaranteed smoothly, as the next gen consoles are all Radeon based.

It's your money, but I suggest wait, just in case you have regrets in a few months.

 

[boxleitnerb]

I don't think that DX11.1 or 11.2 will be relevant during the lifetime of such a card. It's still 3 months until October - if you need the performance now, buy now.

 

[3DVagabond]

I don't think that DX11.1 or 11.2 will be relevant during the lifetime of such a card. It's still 3 months until October - if you need the performance now, buy now.

If the consoles only stick to Dx11.0, then you are correct. We might get the occasional tacked on feature, like we do now with Dx11, if that. If not though, and they (consoles) use the later feature set, then it will matter.

 

[boxleitnerb]

But how much? I cannot imagine game developers ignoring the 2/3 market share for Nvidia on this. I don't expect a lot (if any) games to miss out on features on NV cards. It's a nice addition, but performance, noise and price come first.

 

[3DVagabond]

But how much? I cannot imagine game developers ignoring the 2/3 market share for Nvidia on this. I don't expect a lot (if any) games to miss out on features on NV cards. It's a nice addition, but performance, noise and price come first.

I'm not sure what you base any of this post on?

I didn't realize that nVidia was 66% of the market now. Is that accurate? 11.x will run on cards that support Dx11.0. I'm not sure why you believe that Dx11.2 will exclude nVidia in any way. Besides, the Devs care more about the sponsorship they get from AMD/nVidia than they do about discrete market share numbers. What I'm saying is they will mostly care what's supported by the consoles anyway. Not AMD or nVidia. Most games miss out on nVidia features. Which for games is PhysX. What does performance, noise, and price have to do with the version of Dx the game is based on?

 

[ICDP]

But how much? I cannot imagine game developers ignoring the 2/3 market share for Nvidia on this. I don't expect a lot (if any) games to miss out on features on NV cards. It's a nice addition, but performance, noise and price come first.

You are not seeing the woods for the trees. The potential total sales for next gen consoles will totally dwarf the 60% of a by comparison tiny market that is PC discrete GPUs. Games rarely ever support features that only work with Nvidia and even then they are never EVER nvidia exclussives. You are seriously over stating what Nvidia have to offer.


Developers choice.

1. Optimise for the massive next gen console market. All of which have AMD GPUs
2. Optimise to the much smaller number of people who have Nvidia GPUs in their PCs.

Such a hard choice there.

The vast majority of games developers aim for consoles and the PC versions are usually simple ports with simple changes. If the consoles support DX 11.2 then their games will use Dx 11.2. Any PC GPU that doesn't support DX11.2 will be Shit outta luck. We already have games that do not support older DX9 cards or offer much reduced eye candy DX9.0 support. It is this status quo that drives hardware developement.

Consoles 1st
PC second

 

[Durvelle27]

If the consoles only stick to Dx11.0, then you are correct. We might get the occasional tacked on feature, like we do now with Dx11, if that. If not though, and they (consoles) use the later feature set, then it will matter.

Microsoft did mention that the Xbox One will be using DX 11.2 windows 8 kernel but no word on the PS4

 

[tweakboy]

Grab the 780 GTX. gl

 

[RussianSensation]

I don't think that DX11.1 or 11.2 will be relevant during the lifetime of such a card. It's still 3 months until October - if you need the performance now, buy now.

I agree. The best way to save $ is to buy when you actually need to upgrade because hardware continues to get faster. Another good strategy is to roll-over your old GPU's resale value into a new upgrade. GTX780/HD9970 will become obsolete at around the same time. 2H of 2014 we'll have GPUs way faster since they'll be built on 20nm. Even if 9970 is 10% faster than 780 (hypothetical #), it won't matter since by the time PS4/XB1's best looking games start coming out in 2016-2017, we'll be on 14nm anyway. Just like buying an 8800GTX and holding it for 6 years was the worst idea, so is buying a $650 28nm GPU and holding on to it in hopes of 'future-proofing' for PS4/XB1 ports.

 

[boxleitnerb]

I'm not sure what you base any of this post on?

I didn't realize that nVidia was 66% of the market now. Is that accurate? 11.x will run on cards that support Dx11.0. I'm not sure why you believe that Dx11.2 will exclude nVidia in any way. Besides, the Devs care more about the sponsorship they get from AMD/nVidia than they do about discrete market share numbers. What I'm saying is they will mostly care what's supported by the consoles anyway. Not AMD or nVidia. Most games miss out on nVidia features. Which for games is PhysX. What does performance, noise, and price have to do with the version of Dx the game is based on?

For the discrete GPU market it is quite accurate (desktop and mobile).
Performance and at least price should be main factors when making a purchasing decision. DX version comes way way after. At least that is how I see it.

You are not seeing the woods for the trees. The potential total sales for next gen consoles will totally dwarf the 60% of a by comparison tiny market that is PC discrete GPUs. Games rarely ever support features that only work with Nvidia and even then they are never EVER nvidia exclussives. You are seriously over stating what Nvidia have to offer.


Developers choice.

1. Optimise for the massive next gen console market. All of which have AMD GPUs
2. Optimise to the much smaller number of people who have Nvidia GPUs in their PCs.

Such a hard choice there.

The vast majority of games developers aim for consoles and the PC versions are usually simple ports with simple changes. If the consoles support DX 11.2 then their games will use Dx 11.2. Any PC GPU that doesn't support DX11.2 will be Shit outta luck. We already have games that do not support older DX9 cards or offer much reduced eye candy DX9.0 support. It is this status quo that drives hardware developement.

Consoles 1st
PC second

Maybe you misunderstood. I didn't talk about Nvidia exclusive features. Instead I meant that I doubt the devs would use 11.1/11.2 so extensively that 11.0 cards cannot display full details in most titles.

 

[3DVagabond]

For the discrete GPU market it is quite accurate (desktop and mobile).
Performance and at least price should be main factors when making a purchasing decision. DX version comes way way after. At least that is how I see it.



Maybe you misunderstood. I didn't talk about Nvidia exclusive features. Instead I meant that I doubt the devs would use 11.1/11.2 so extensively that 11.0 cards cannot display full details in most titles.

Wasn't thinking about mobile, just desktop. In this instance, mobile does matter. At least for a bit longer.

When you say nVidia features, I assume you actually mean nVidia features. Not Dx features. As I said though, it's not AMD or nVidia discrete they are developing for, it's console. I really don't think they are going to leave out Dx functions because nVidia doesn't support them. Not without compensation from nVidia, anyway.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Microsoft did mention that the Xbox One will be using DX 11.2 windows 8 kernel but no word on the PS4

It would be 8.1 for DX11.2.

Also the Xbox One demos was with Win7 and DX11.0.

We will get these incremental DX updates for now on with the yearly OS releases. And the minor DX updates will mean less and less. Only major revisions might have potential.

 

[boxleitnerb]

Wasn't thinking about mobile, just desktop. In this instance, mobile does matter. At least for a bit longer.

When you say nVidia features, I assume you actually mean nVidia features. Not Dx features. As I said though, it's not AMD or nVidia discrete they are developing for, it's console. I really don't think they are going to leave out Dx functions because nVidia doesn't support them. Not without compensation from nVidia, anyway.

Well no, I just worded it poorly. I indeed meant DX11.1/2 features.

Windows is another factor. Windows 7 is the established base, you'll need Win 8 for 11.1 and 8.1 for 11.2 apparently. Makes this even more irrelevant imo.

 

[ICDP]

Maybe you misunderstood. I didn't talk about Nvidia exclusive features. Instead I meant that I doubt the devs would use 11.1/11.2 so extensively that 11.0 cards cannot display full details in most titles.

I addressed both points because I wasn't 100% cetain what you meant. Thanks for the clarification.

Try to bear in mind that if games are DX11.2 exclusive they will also render current AMD GPUs obsolete. So it isnt 2/3rds of the market being excluded, it will be %100 of the current discrete GPU market. I personally will be delighted if next gen consoles are DX11.2. The next gen consoles will ave a very long shelf life, the last thing we need is for them stuck using DX11 for the duration of their operational life.

To reiterate, at some point every discrete GPU becomes obsolesent but it doesn't mean they are obsolete. Many PC games still support older DX9.0 cards, they simply have less eye candy than the DX11 enhanced version. It wil be the exact same if next gen consoles are DX11.2 compliant, we will just get slightly less options with our current gen GPUs.

Initially the changes/differences will be minimal but as time goes on the games will start to exclude the older gen GPUs. By then new DX11.2 GPUs from both Nvidia and AMD will be common.

 

[Durvelle27]

It would be 8.1 for DX11.2.

Also the Xbox One demos was with Win7 and DX11.0.

We will get these incremental DX updates for now on with the yearly OS releases. And the minor DX updates will mean less and less. Only major revisions might have potential.

Yes the Demos but they have already said the Xbox one will be runing 3 OS's one of which will be windows 8

 

[3DVagabond]

I hope AMD cards are not toooo expensive like the titan was upon release.

Likely the $550 price point, again. Assuming it's equal to or slightly faster than the 780. If it's appreciably faster, which I don't think it will be, then we might see $650ish.