Guess who gets to Drill for oil in the Golan Heights?

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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,049
38,552
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Your argument is then that international law is meaningless and basically a return to the law of the jungle is only what counts? Remember that Syria was a fully functional state for decades before its breakdown just a few years ago. The ONLY reason that Israel held the Golan for so long is due to the power of the Israel lobby preventing the U.S. from pressuring it to hand over the occupied areas. It is NOT due to security. Any peace agreement between Syria and Israel could easily have entailed a demilitarized Golan with UN peacekeepers stationed there to prevent any security breach of the area and Syria would have agreed (or forced to agree from pressure of its allies).

The real reason that Israel is holding on to the Golan is due to its rich resources (oil mentioned in OP), it also provides 15% of Israels fresh water supply. The humanitarian aspects of the people living there are not an issue. The stealing of the Golan is purely a case of "might = right" and that anyone can invade anywhere without repercussions provided it is powerful enough and can withstand opposing international consenus or pressure and laws be damned. The entire world does not support this move, ONLY the U.S. and Israel do. The people of the U.S. are basically kept in the dark as to what is going on and fed tidbits of misinformation like its a strategic area vital for Israels security. Its a farce really and a middle finger up to the rest of the world.

The value of a firing position with superior elevation to target is not a tidbit of misinformation. Having a vantage point into a number of different countries is also far from meaningless, it's why some in the IDF have always opposed the Golan's status of being a long time carrot for Syria, something ready to be given back if the deal is right. It's simply too good of a defensive position given Israel's resources and history. It may not be vital, but that doesn't mean it can be ignored. Water, oil, and politically ambivalent Druze are just bonuses. It could be as inviting as the middle of the Negev and there would still be at least observation posts and bases, backed with 155mm, probably a couple thousand diehard far right settlers as well.

I agree there are plenty of middle fingers going up, just not sure that's one of them as detailed.
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,008
2,278
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The value of a firing position with superior elevation to target is not a tidbit of misinformation. Having a vantage point into a number of different countries is also far from meaningless, it's why some in the IDF have always opposed the Golan's status of being a long time carrot for Syria, something ready to be given back if the deal is right. It's simply too good of a defensive position given Israel's resources and history. It may not be vital, but that doesn't mean it can be ignored. Water, oil, and politically ambivalent Druze are just bonuses. It could be as inviting as the middle of the Negev and there would still be at least observation posts and bases, backed with 155mm, probably a couple thousand diehard far right settlers as well.

I agree there are plenty of middle fingers going up, just not sure that's one of them as detailed.
Again, as stated, it is a complete security non-issue if the Golan is demilitarized and UN personnel stationed there to monitor it. You are not making peace with a neighbor in anticipation of resumption of hostilities, but for the greater reward of peace and stability in the area to the benefit of all. Israel doesnt care about that as much as they care about the Golan resources for its own selfish needs. Their 'vantage points' are still easily maintained with electronic surveilance (in addition to UN military personnel) in place there. In a peace treaty, and with adequate security arrangements and conditions, Israels security in the Golan can be virtually guaranteed. If not, whats to prevent them from just re-occupying it if the security arrangements fail? So its basically a stupid joke for them to complain about the Golans strategic or security threat to them if it doesnt remain completely in their hands. Only the gullible fall for it.
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,049
38,552
136
It sounds like you're looking for someone in Israel to blame because they don't have the same faith in the UN as you do. Fact is sometimes it's not just observing that needs to be done. You can deride their security concerns all you want, but that's just ranting. Ignoring the value of Golan for bargining is of course up to you too. I'm a huge critic of Israeli expansion, but they didn't ask for The 6 Day War and I'm not one to criticize others on how they successfully manage to survive almost being wiped out.

Peace treaties and 'measures' haven't prevented conflict and death in the past, maybe you should hold off the accusations of being gullible a bit.
 
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Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,415
14,307
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Start by boycotting your automakers that push gas guzzling Large SUV's and pickup trucks and start buying fuel efficient cars or better yet electric, tell your 401k investment managers to divest as much as possible from fossil fuels, start demanding products and services that are created using environmentally friendly methods regardless of where they are sourced, refuse to buy products from those that pollute here or abroad, show the oil and gas industry, the cause of most of the problems in the middle east, that Americans are willing to make the necessary sacrifices instead of virtue signaling on some internet forum.

So what you're saying is that it's not virtue signaling on some internet forum to condescendingly lecture people that they're doing it wrong on some internet forum?
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,008
2,278
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I'm a huge critic of Israeli expansion, but they didn't ask for The 6 Day War and I'm not one to criticize others on how they successfully manage to survive almost being wiped out.

Peace treaties and 'measures' haven't prevented conflict and death in the past, maybe you should hold off the accusations of being gullible a bit.
There you go again. Swallowing the Israeli narrative hook, line and sinker. Yes Israel did start the 67 war. Their main goal in that war was indeed expansion but they had to use the 'defending themselves' argument to make their claimed motives more palatable. Sure the Egyptians had blocked the Israeli access to the Suez canal, but that was their right (again by international law). There was no military threat from them. This was not a war causing casus-belli to most nations. And the Israel actions in the Golan were entirely provoked by Israel, according to Israeli General Moshe Dayan, who later expressed regrets and preferred to see peace with their neighbors instead of the mess that followed.

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/11/world/general-s-words-shed-a-new-light-on-the-golan.html
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,008
2,278
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Britain says it has no plans to change its stance on Golan Heights

LONDON (Reuters) - Britain said it had no plans to change its stance on the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights after U.S. President Donald Trump on Friday moved to recognize Israeli sovereignty over the territory seized from Syria in a 1967 war.

“The UK views the Golan Heights as territory occupied by Israel. Annexation of territory by force is prohibited under international law, including the U.N. Charter,” a British Foreign Office spokesman said in a statement.

“We did not recognize Israel’s annexation in 1981 and have no plans to change our position.”

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ts-stance-on-golan-heights-idUSKCN1R32E6?il=0
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,049
38,552
136
There you go again. Swallowing the Israeli narrative hook, line and sinker. Yes Israel did start the 67 war. Their main goal in that war was indeed expansion but they had to use the 'defending themselves' argument to make their claimed motives more palatable. Sure the Egyptians had blocked the Israeli access to the Suez canal, but that was their right (again by international law). There was no military threat from them. This was not a war causing casus-belli to most nations. And the Israel actions in the Golan were entirely provoked by Israel, according to Israeli General Moshe Dayan, who later expressed regrets and preferred to see peace with their neighbors instead of the mess that followed.

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/11/world/general-s-words-shed-a-new-light-on-the-golan.html


If you're going to dispute the Egyptian/Pan Arab plan to attack in 67, I think we're done here. I try not to waste time debating with ideologues.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,008
2,278
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If you're going to dispute the Egyptian/Pan Arab plan to attack in 67, I think we're done here. I try not to waste time debating with ideologues.
Nice deflection. Links or references to the "Egyptian/Pan Arab plan to attack in 67"? These are your words, so no moving goal posts as to what you may find. I find it ludicrous that Egypt with half its army tied down in the Yemen war in Spring of 67 would even remotely ponder the possibility of an initiated war with Israel even with its much weaker Arab allies to help out.
 
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Thebobo

Lifer
Jun 19, 2006
18,592
7,673
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good grief, seek help.

So you are glad Cheney that took us to an illegal and immoral war that killed hundreds of thousands of citizens and 3K+ americans not to mention the trillions of dollars spent and was never charged with war crimes? I assume you are one those that believed there the Iraquies were still producing WMDs?
 
Mar 11, 2004
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Ugh, so sick of this type of shit. Fucking piece of shit politicians and fossil fuel companies trying to leverage our reliance on such for energy that they have no concern about conflicts that arise because they want to maintain their wealth and control.

For both people below, seriously, the Wiki page on this helps show that you're both wrong and right. And its pretty solid with backed up info (its weird to me how rarely people actually link Wikipedia any more, even though I think they've only gotten better about being objective), so no need to even resort to where your argument was heading. And really, I don't think either of you would dispute that for many reasons both sides were constantly on edge of attack and didn't need much to goad them to it, but that also the other side often attempted to goad them to it because they too were looking for an excuse to fight.

And Kage69, you I think are quite on board with admitting there's plenty of things to take issue with the Israeli government's actions (and that didn't just start becoming an issue in the past decade or two). But amenx, I hope you'd readily admit that the Arabs were very keen to war with Israel, so I wouldn't really call what they did as empty (that doesn't mean Israel was justified in their actions or the ones that followed, likewise for the other side). I think even Israel has admitted that they attacked first (after initially claiming they were attacked first, then they tried to justify attacking first themselves), so its not really disputed by anyone that Israel did attack first.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_relating_to_the_Six-Day_War

Which, that first link, you quickly realize that, oh yeah, this was about a lot more than just that specific situation, and why you're both prone to wanting to argue even though I'm not sure either of you has a serious reason to (are either of you Israeli, Egyptian, Jordanian, Syrian, Palestinian, Jewish, or Muslim?), and its more I think you don't want the valid point you're raising be ignored. You both have valid points, but also ignore each other's valid points in a way, when I think you'd both see the situation and see objectively that each of your valid points don't cancel each other out, and instead actually reinforce each other and help to understand why that region has struggled to find long term peace.

As with most conflicts, both sides have legitimate concerns. But when delving into that situation, there's long historical baggage that is included as well and that's what we need to try and work to get past so that instead of each further conflict just adding to it, that there can be progress made to stop constantly making the same mistakes. But because its hard for people embedded in such conflicts to see and accept that, it just leads to them justifying their bad actions because of bad actions by the other, and then you just get an unending chain of that as they go back and forth, which just makes it that much more difficult to try and move past it as how can you overlook all of that awful stuff the other side did!?! And of course they'll point yours as well.

If you're going to dispute the Egyptian/Pan Arab plan to attack in 67, I think we're done here. I try not to waste time debating with ideologues.

I don't think its actually that controversial to view that war as largely being carried out by Israel (Wiki pretty heavily shows Israel was the main attacker, but does note who started it is somewhat controversial - but is largely down to if you agree with Israel's notion that closing the Straits of Tiran was an act of war, or if you view Israel's pre-emptive strikes as the actual first attacks). Now, I do think there was definitely some goading (Egypt closing the Straits of Tiran after the conflicts over that specifically from before) and moving troops to the Israeli border (that's not in dispute). Nor is that fact that Israel is the one that launched the actual attacks and Egypt didn't seem to have much of an actual plan for war (I think they were wanting some conflict to break out, but didn't expect Israel to be so prepared, I think their plan was to get into skirmish at the border that would be a stalemate, and use that to garner more support against Israel, both locally and internationally). I don't think there's any doubt that there were hostile feelings from all involved though (as we saw both before and after, I'm speaking just of those directly involved, Israel, Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, namely the prior Arab-Israeil War in the late 40s, and then the later conflicts).

In many ways, who initiated things is somewhat immaterial as there were a lot of issues that left both sides eager to act on. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and we saw great strides made (from Israel, Egypt, and Jordan; Syria not so much...). But that's why recent events have been especially disheartening. Decades of work and poof, its like we're right back to the 70s. I just hope that Jordan and Egypt maintain their relative calm (granted Syria's state means they're not in a position to do much, which is exactly why Israel is picking this time to try and formalize things; just like they're doing with getting Turmp to move the American embassy).

Nice deflection. Links or references to the "Egyptian/Pan Arab plan to attack in 67"? These are your words, so no moving goal posts as to what you may find. I find it ludicrous that Egypt with half its army tied down in the Yemen war in Spring of 67 would even remotely ponder the possibility of an initiated war with Israel even with its much weaker Arab allies to help out.

The thing is, they clearly had some thought it was likely to happen, as Israel had invaded the Sinai in '56 over that issue, so when they once again shut down the Straits of Tiran, they moved forces to the Israeli border (because they almost certainly assumed Israel would retaliate as they had before and said they would view it happening again as an act of war).

Now, they didn't seem to have much of a plan beyond that (but they had some base plan, as they signed an agreement with Jordan just a few days prior, which was specifically about Jordan not being offensive but pulling Israeli forces from being able to concentrate on Egypt). So its not like they had absolutely no plan, but they didn't have any real concrete idea for full on war with Israel (at the time, I think that is important to note, as they might've just been setting up a reason to push for military expansion; I think they were hoping for Israeli invasion to help galvanize political sentiment for further conflict with Israel, both for international as well as local politicking; they try and portray Israel as the aggressor).

Your own link says that Egypt had made remarks but they were dismissed as bluffing. The thing is, it doesn't matter if they were bluff or not, they were inciting actions (which makes no sense to do if you weren't planning on fighting with Israel; they knew Israel would respond and it was pretty much certainly going to be through military action). I think their goal was likely to pull that shit, then Israel would attack and they'd run crying to the UN about it (while rah-rahing at home and to other Arab countries about the need to deal with Israel), but then because they didn't have a real plan, that Israel was able to kick their ass so hard that it basically killed that plan.
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,008
2,278
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darkswordsman17 > Keep in mind that there is an information war that is being waged on virtually anything having to do with Israel and their actions in the mid-east. Thats why you see the terms 'controversial' in many of events in question. The Israeli narrative is not being challenged by the Arabs as they do not have a prominent voice in the matter and are almost completely left out on any of the issues in question. The most prominent voices challenging the Israeli narrative are U.S. military and intelligence officials, diplomats involved in the events and even high ranking Israeli officials themselves who are not comfortable with the levels of disinformation being put out. Israel is also in a much stronger position to influence major U.S. media outlets to air their views and leave out vital context that may weaken their arguments. Not to mention intense lobbying efforts to influence politics, rig investigations or covering up major events.

To see this sort of influence in action, view the wiki page on the U.S.S Liberty... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

And compare it to the statements of the naval personnel on the ship, its commanders and other high ranking U.S. military officials. Its perhaps best summarized by the statements and subsequent inquiries of the highest ranking U.S. military officials in charge at the time, including Admiral Thomas H. Moorer, United States Navy (Ret.) and Former Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Johnson administration.

The Moorer Comission on the U.S.S Liberty

Only then you may understand the level of disinformation being waged by the Israel lobby and their media cohorts on the events in question, including the 6 day war.

p.s. re Egyptian troop movements, they were informed by the Soviets that Israel had massed troops on their border an therefore responded accordingly with a feeble token force of their own (2 divisions). With half their army tied down in Yemen, it was basically an ineffectual posturing move.
 
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Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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If you're going to dispute the Egyptian/Pan Arab plan to attack in 67, I think we're done here. I try not to waste time debating with ideologues.

Israel sold the shit out of that in America. It's obvious bullshit. If the Arabs were poised to attack Israel wouldn't have caught their air forces on the ground. Half of Egypt's army wouldn't have been in Yemen. When Nasser declared the Strait of Tiran closed to Israeli shipping Israel declared it an act of war & attacked. Nothing actually happened in the strait.
 
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