Guildwars 2 Beta Thread

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diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
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In GW1, other than weekends, the period from 20-02 CET always seemed the busiest.

Generally Europe would lose the favor of the gods (when favor was determined by HoH) at around 02:00 to America.

It is possible that the GW2 community is younger and play at earlier hours, but there is a ton of germans/french playing at those times.

Which is why i said i dont know how europeans handle nights on weekdays.

I know by midnight here in the places I lived in the east coast america, majority of the people who would play an MMO would be getting ready to or be asleep. (High schoolers and younger, and people with a M-F 8-5 job) With practically the college crowd and a few people in the other age groups playing later.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
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As I mentioned in another post is, what's funny is that someone who will play this game a lot for years also pays just that $60. That's an 'economic inefficiency' in the pricing.

If two people go to a movie, and one hates it and one loves it, one can have overpaid while the other underpaid for the value - but they both got a similar product.

But this is why 'f2p' type things are taking off - charging $60 for both the 'hates it' player who spend 2 hours and the 'loves it' player who spends years is problematic.

A model like 'F2P' is much better at getting the player who spends years to spend a lot more than $60, while letting the 'hates it player' try it for free.

As I mentioned in that other post, though, a downside is the corruption of the game design in F2P to make the game a lot less enjoyable for free players.

How many people who play for years would spend $500 for this game as one purchase?

This doesn't even get into the issue of how some games, which are played for years, can be a harm to other games - preventing people buying them.

If you're totally into 'Guild Wars' and play it for years, maybe you don't need to buy twenty other games you would have, that are played for 10 or 20 hours and that's it.

Going back to my movie analogy, there are few if any movies that will get people watching them so many times that they don't buy other movies. Two hours, on to another.

I don't mean to criticize what seems great for consumers of years of gaming for $60, but it does raise issues if we want a strong industry making a lot of expensive games.

It's ok when it's an exception, but if it became common, we'd see the gaming industry funding plummet and many fewer games.


I agree, yet disagree.

The metaphor used works for anything in an economic market. Car parts, soft drinks, food. Everything has variables that can enhance or lower the "value" of it. However they are all priced the same, for the most part.

F2p is getting more popular, but it isnt as much as the value issue, as is the fact that micro transations psycologically are more effective. Someone sees a $60 dollar game and goes "Eh... I won't spend $60 on a game". WHen he buys a game for free, within a few months under the f2p idea, it is highly probable he broke that $60 through micro transactions.

The best simulation? Steam summer/xmas sale. I bought so many games at a insanly cheap/small price (over 80 to be exact). Yet I will probably never ever play 75-80% of those games because of time constratints. But when I see a game that looks cool for $2-5, it doesn't matter. Its just $5. A lot of posters on here seem to have a never ending backlog of games from steam too. This is the f2p strength, not because of "value" as much as it is so much easier to shrug off small amounts of money over and over, than 1 big lump sum.

Harming other games is part of competition. If a game (Take everyones favorite debate game) such as WoW is taking so much time from other players then it is other companies goals to take a chunk of that or break that for themselve. Competition and ambition is what drives a capitalisticesque society.

The rest makes no sense what you are saying, or I am not getting it. Like $60 is too much for games and that is the exception? When every game for the past decade or so was released with that price if not more. Or you talking about an MMO that doesn't use a subscription but only a 1 time cost, meaning that for only $60 you are taking people away from other games for longer periods of time that games that can be beaten in a single night or 2?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
I agree, yet disagree.

The metaphor used works for anything in an economic market. Car parts, soft drinks, food. Everything has variables that can enhance or lower the "value" of it. However they are all priced the same, for the most part.

F2p is getting more popular, but it isnt as much as the value issue, as is the fact that micro transations psycologically are more effective. Someone sees a $60 dollar game and goes "Eh... I won't spend $60 on a game". WHen he buys a game for free, within a few months under the f2p idea, it is highly probable he broke that $60 through micro transactions.

The best simulation? Steam summer/xmas sale. I bought so many games at a insanly cheap/small price (over 80 to be exact). Yet I will probably never ever play 75-80% of those games because of time constratints. But when I see a game that looks cool for $2-5, it doesn't matter. Its just $5. A lot of posters on here seem to have a never ending backlog of games from steam too. This is the f2p strength, not because of "value" as much as it is so much easier to shrug off small amounts of money over and over, than 1 big lump sum.

Harming other games is part of competition. If a game (Take everyones favorite debate game) such as WoW is taking so much time from other players then it is other companies goals to take a chunk of that or break that for themselve. Competition and ambition is what drives a capitalisticesque society.

The rest makes no sense what you are saying, or I am not getting it. Like $60 is too much for games and that is the exception? When every game for the past decade or so was released with that price if not more. Or you talking about an MMO that doesn't use a subscription but only a 1 time cost, meaning that for only $60 you are taking people away from other games for longer periods of time that games that can be beaten in a single night or 2?

At first, it seemed we're agreeing - but then I did see one or two areas to clarify.

So while I think we're mostly agreeing - in some cases with you restating the position that I think isn't really disagreeing - on to the others.

While we're both pointing out the consumer preference making it easier to spend more than $60 bit by bit than $60 in one purchase - that was a mani point of my posts - that also happens to map to 'value' issue. With the $60 package, the guy who hates the game pays too much, and the guy who plays it for years pays 'too little', a huge bargain for $60. However, the micro-transactions make it more likely the guy who hates the game pays little to nothing, while the guy who gets a lot of value playing for years pays more than $60.

You missed my point on competition harming other games. I was pointing out the difference between 'normal games', which are the 'normal competition' - you buy the ones you want and play them, but they each last a reasonable time and don't prevent you buying other games - and the games that have huge playtimes to the point that they more greatly reduce your game buying.

So if there are 100 games that take 10 to 15 hours to play, and you buy 10 of them, that's one type of game. But if you buy one game and play it so much that you don't buy 25 other games over a couple years you would have bought, that's starting to harm the other games more than a 'normal game'. And I was saying the same thing doesn't really exist in something such as the movie analogy I was discussing. One movie doesn't make you watch it for years to the point you don't buy many other movies you would.

Imagine two movies that were so good that they were permanently in theatres for years - so that was two fewer movies in each theatre for any new films and customers.

You lump all of that under 'competition', but there's a big difference between normal game length products and products that have such long gameplay as to cripple game sales.

If a gamer goes from spending $1000 on 50 games to playing one game instead, that's not good for the industry's creation and diversity of games.

On the last point, I meant the latter - that if games like Guild Wars, charge $60 and be played a lot for years, were dominant in the industry, then it'd have a pretty big impact, but because a game like that that has such long gameplay for one normal price is an exception, not many games do that, that it's less of an issue for the industry.

A game like Civilization might threaten that a bit - but I suspect most players don't play it THAT much as they could. MMO's are more like that, though, taking a lot of time.

For a while, over 90% of my playing has gone to World of Tanks. For a lot of gamers, that would mean they stopped buying other games.

World of Tanks isn't a 15 hour game. You can play just it for years.
 
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diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
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You missed my point on competition harming other games. I was pointing out the difference between 'normal games', which are the 'normal competition' - you buy the ones you want and play them, but they each last a reasonable time and don't prevent you buying other games - and the games that have huge playtimes to the point that they more greatly reduce your game buying.

So if there are 100 games that take 10 to 15 hours to play, and you buy 10 of them, that's one type of game. But if you buy one game and play it so much that you don't buy 25 other games over a couple years you would have bought, that's starting to harm the other games more than a 'normal game'. And I was saying the same thing doesn't really exist in something such as the movie analogy I was discussing. One movie doesn't make you watch it for years to the point you don't buy many other movies you would.

Imagine two movies that were so good that they were permanently in theatres for years - so that was two fewer movies in each theatre for any new films and customers.

You lump all of that under 'competition', but there's a big difference between normal game length products and products that have such long gameplay as to cripple game sales.

If a gamer goes from spending $1000 on 50 games to playing one game instead, that's not good for the industry's creation and diversity of games.

On the last point, I meant the latter - that if games like Guild Wars, charge $60 and be played a lot for years, were dominant in the industry, then it'd have a pretty big impact, but because a game like that that has such long gameplay for one normal price is an exception, not many games do that, that it's less of an issue for the industry.

A game like Civilization might threaten that a bit - but I suspect most players don't play it THAT much as they could. MMO's are more like that, though, taking a lot of time.

For a while, over 90% of my playing has gone to World of Tanks. For a lot of gamers, that would mean they stopped buying other games.

World of Tanks isn't a 15 hour game. You can play just it for years.

Yes, competition is exactly what that is. Even though I invest large chunks of time into world of warcraft, if a fun "normal game" was released, I would buy that and play it on and off with WoW. If it wasn't going to be good I wouldnt. Still comes down to personal taste on games. But it may be surprising that even with all the MMOs acting like that, except for the start of this year (2012) video game revenue has never been higher. And besides the emergence of f2p, game prices haven't changed much over a decade. So it isn't hurting the market as much as one would think, because people will still buy a game if they like it, even though they spend much time on another.

But yea, f2p was a perfect psycological strategy. I told my dad whos halfway across the country about steam and its summer sale while it was going on. He rarly ever plays or buys games. He spent a little over $100 on steam that week. (Never hearing about the program before). "Oh hey a $1 iphone game app, /buy (only $1)" play for like 10minutes and never see it again. 20 game apps later...
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Yes, competition is exactly what that is. Even though I invest large chunks of time into world of warcraft, if a fun "normal game" was released, I would buy that and play it on and off with WoW. If it wasn't going to be good I wouldnt. Still comes down to personal taste on games. But it may be surprising that even with all the MMOs acting like that, except for the start of this year (2012) video game revenue has never been higher. And besides the emergence of f2p, game prices haven't changed much over a decade. So it isn't hurting the market as much as one would think, because people will still buy a game if they like it, even though they spend much time on another.

But yea, f2p was a perfect psycological strategy. I told my dad whos halfway across the country about steam and its summer sale while it was going on. He rarly ever plays or buys games. He spent a little over $100 on steam that week. (Never hearing about the program before). "Oh hey a $1 iphone game app, /buy (only $1)" play for like 10minutes and never see it again. 20 game apps later...

You're still missing my point about the different type of games and how it's not just 'competition', but otherwise, ya it's more complicated as far as the industry.

For example, more good games 'grow the market' - there are various factors in whether game sales go up or not.

That's why I said, what could be damaging isn't much harm when it's the exception.

It's a little like the DVR effect on commercial television - it destroys the business for a viewer using one, but when not many people are using them, it doesn't destroy it.

Steam can shoot up sales with those cheap prices - but then there's another effect, when you have 50 under-$5 games to play, you're less likely to buy that new $60 game.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
Steam can shoot up sales with those cheap prices - but then there's another effect, when you have 50 under-$5 games to play, you're less likely to buy that new $60 game.

Then it is there fault for not making a game worth $60 and/or allowing programs like steam to purchase rights to allow them to sell it that cheap. (Part of Competition)

If the game to me sounds like it is worth it, Ill spend $60. I have no problem with that.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,634
180
106
You're still missing my point about the different type of games and how it's not just 'competition', but otherwise, ya it's more complicated as far as the industry.

For example, more good games 'grow the market' - there are various factors in whether game sales go up or not.

That's why I said, what could be damaging isn't much harm when it's the exception.

It's a little like the DVR effect on commercial television - it destroys the business for a viewer using one, but when not many people are using them, it doesn't destroy it.

Steam can shoot up sales with those cheap prices - but then there's another effect, when you have 50 under-$5 games to play, you're less likely to buy that new $60 game.

That isn't true.

What those sales make is for people to spend money in games they wouldn't buy otherwise - and since it is a digital copy there is no expenses manufacturing it (just a little bandwidth cost).

There is always a time where the gratification of buying something overcomes waiting for a cheaper price.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
9,811
110
106
There is always a time where the gratification of buying something overcomes waiting for a cheaper price.

Always? I wouldn't use that word. I'm sure there are some buyers who *would* buy $60 games if it was the only choice, but the existence of $15 steam sales has caused them to shift and only buy cheaper games.
 

Tookie123

Member
Sep 28, 2007
38
0
61
Guild Wars 2 ‏@GuildWars2
We are restarting the servers. The stress test will restart at 12:30. (20 minutes from now.) ~RB2 #GW2
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,634
180
106
Always? I wouldn't use that word. I'm sure there are some buyers who *would* buy $60 games if it was the only choice, but the existence of $15 steam sales has caused them to shift and only buy cheaper games.

But how many would they buy?

Sales make me buy more games, not less.

And there are games I would look if they cost $0.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
But how many would they buy?

Sales make me buy more games, not less.

And there are games I would look if they cost $0.

This, and I don't rule out $60 for a game. If it is some thing I really want to play when it comes out Ill buy it. It isn't that bad of a price. Especially when (like GW2 can provide much playtime) and my situation deems that the price is decent.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
That isn't true.

What those sales make is for people to spend money in games they wouldn't buy otherwise - and since it is a digital copy there is no expenses manufacturing it (just a little bandwidth cost).

There is always a time where the gratification of buying something overcomes waiting for a cheaper price.

I'd prefer you not state a different opinion with the phrase "that isn't true".

It is true. You can have a different opinion. There are tradeoffs with different pricing.

It's like almost any pricing - price it less, sell more. Businesses have spent centuries looking at how to price to make the most profit.

And that includes the 'sale'.

If you just price it lower, then people who would pay more pay less and you lose that money. If you just price it higher, people who will only pay less don't buy it.

Thing is, when the sales become inceasingly fast and constant, it becomes like simply lowering the price, slashing into the people who would pay more.

And it's not just about one product - if there are ten RPG's out there, then one of them can gain sales at a lower price - but when nine slash the price, the tenth is forced to also.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Then it is there fault for not making a game worth $60 and/or allowing programs like steam to purchase rights to allow them to sell it that cheap. (Part of Competition)

If the game to me sounds like it is worth it, Ill spend $60. I have no problem with that.

It's not that simple, as 'worth' $60.

If I can broaden this to the software industry, market phases are recognized.

There are periods when a type of software is newer and more can be charged for it, with less competition. The phase they worry about is the commodity phase.

For example, when software compression was introduced - almost by one person, Phil Katz - he could charge a premium for his program (it didn't hurt disk cost a fortune).

But eventually, compression software became 'commoditized', and the profits wee sucked out of that market. Who has paid $40 for a compression program lately?

The same issue can affect other industries, like movies and tv, and games.

Consider a change in the tv market - it used to be three networks and PBS, where you had to watch when it aired. A new show wasn't competing against hundreds of shows that had aired before. But with the introduction of DVD's and rentals and other things making every movie and tv show from decades available, new shows have a lot more competition - not to mention hundreds of channels. That's a bit of a different issue, though.

With games, having a standard price of $60 for a top new game that lasts for a year is one pricing situation, and having everything on sale cheap fast is a different one.

It teaches people not to buy new games at $60, and slashes the average price paid. Games are forced to sell for less because other games do.

That's not about 'worth $60'. It's simply the market forces other than demand.

If that compression software had instantly had a lot of competition and the price was driven down from $40 to $1, it wouldn't be because it wasn't 'worth $40'.

You're blaming the victim when you point at the software maker and say the program isn't very good to get a higher price.

I paid $2300 for a 21" CRT when that was the going rate. Is my $300 27" LCD 'worth' that much less? No, the market changed.

And CRT's - while some people still prefer them - got priced out of existence. You can't get any good 21" CRT now except used.

And similarly the $60 game model is getting priced out of the market, while F2P's and DLC and other variations are shrinking it.

There's a lot of technology changes catching up. Games used to mean a physical box in a store, maybe a hundreds of page manual and cloth map. Now they don't.

One thing keeping the market going is the improvement in games, so that new games seem better than older games, for the most part.

When that stops, it'll hurt the market for new games further.

You say 'if the game is worth $60 you'll pay it'. But what does that mean? In part, it means not only 'wrth it', but worth it more than many other games on sale for $5.

And that has nothing to do with the game.

There are many 'legitimate' improvements that drive prices down. What we'd all pay for an SSD two years ago is different than we'll pay for better ones today. That's 'competition'.

But that's not the same thing as solely pricing changes driven by massive digital distribution and discounting pressures created with a seller like Steam.

'You don't have to put your game on sale, but other games did and you won't sell yours if you don't because of that'.

To repeat, there are tadeoffs. Lower prices increase units sold. But that doesn't make it optimal for sellers and it doesn't prevent a threat to the budgets for new games.

Think budgets don't matter? Compare the quality of HBO shows to others - much less to the new genre of 'reality tv'. Hey, another phony car towing drama!

The Sporanos, Rome, Boardwalk Empire, The Newsroom, True Blood - these do not exist in a lower budget industry, on commercial 'free' television.

Luckily, it's harder to commoditize a product like HBO's - though the reality shows are commoditized, and it shows.
 

Phobic9

Golden Member
Apr 6, 2001
1,824
0
71
Performance seemed a lot better this time but I forgot to realize I was playing on a new computer vs my Alienware M18x until midway through the event. Most others are saying the graphics and performance are indeed better.

I spent the majority of my time watering corn and feeding cows in the Human starter area. Probably a waste but I don't want to burn out as quick as I normally do in MMOs.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,634
180
106
Again, once the desire a buyer has overcomes the love it has for its money/work time, as long he can afford it, he will buy.

It isn't the consumer problem some products aren't attractive - actually non attractive products are a waste of resources and should fail so the resources can be used for something else.

Everyone knew a 7970 would drop in price - still people paid a price premium for it.
Everyone knows whatever iphone, ipad, ipod, will drop in price in a few months, still huge lines form up for first dibs.
Everyone knows games will eventually drop in price - still most of the games sell more in their first month.

Budgets aren't everything - without competition you can't distinguish between a budget well spent or waste.

SWTOR vs GW2 - I'm positive GW2 will go down in history as an excellent game and SWTOR will go down in history as an average game at best, still SWTOR budget dwarfs GW2 budget.

You just can't mix saturated markets, niche markets, new markets and expanding markets.
 

maniacalpha1-1

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2010
3,562
14
81
I've not been following this game too closely, but soon I'll want a new MMORPG...can this game be zoomed in and played first person?
 

Phobic9

Golden Member
Apr 6, 2001
1,824
0
71
I've not been following this game too closely, but soon I'll want a new MMORPG...can this game be zoomed in and played first person?

I believe you can, however, combat in this game is a lot more mobile than most MMOs. You're going to have to see what's going on around you when things get tough so it's a bit more obvious that they designed with 3rd-person in mind.
 

GaiaHunter

Diamond Member
Jul 13, 2008
3,634
180
106
Well a common complaint has been that the camera is too close to start with...

You can make your character disappear while standing still. Not sure if it works while fighting.

I'll check today during the stress test.
 

SS Trooper

Senior member
Jun 18, 2012
228
0
0
Open to all pre-purchasers.

Some people claim that they can access it with their Beta weekend event key, so you can try if you have a key.

Thank you. Was going to try to get a group of buddies to try this out tonight, but I don't think they would be willing to pre purchase just to try it for a few hours.
 

diesbudt

Diamond Member
Jun 1, 2012
3,393
0
0
I just hope when I choose a server, it won't be like WoW where I chose one that had low pop
 
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