Gun Control is not about guns. It's about control.

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J-Money

Senior member
Feb 9, 2003
552
0
0
There is no "win" or "lose". I'm not comparing car accidents, which happen. Drinking and driving are not accidents. You are trying to make a tragic death some how different.

It is different in that a drunk driver didn't get drunk and drive for the purpose of murdering someone. Different. It's an "accident" in that the death wasn't the intent of the driver. still a crime, but not the same. A gun murderer used the gun on purpose to kill someone.

Do you agree a drunk driver did not intend to kill someone, but a gun murderer did?

Do you know why intent matters? Because to the law it matters. How often are drunk driving deaths charged as a homicides (murder) vs manslaughter?

I'm on your side on gun control, just trying to get you guys to stop comparing dumb things.
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
guns are not handed out like candy. you have to go through a background check and possibly more (depending on state) to get a gun.

I have a bolt action rifle and I want to use it for its intended purpose - hunting deer.

why do anti's think that anyone can walk into a drug store and buy a gun like a gallon of milk? it's simply not true.
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As pontifex exactly characterizes me as a firearms user. I have a high powered bolt action rifle I would have to go out of State to legally Use in hunting Bambi, as a high powered rifle is illegal in my State to hunt deer. In my younger days, I used a shotgun to hunt pheasants and Quail. We are talking serious yum yum there. Sadly by the mid-1976 era, and the twin one two punch of Earl Butz farming policies that eliminated all fence rows that provided shelter to those game birds, plus the very cold winters and the very wet springs of the mid 1970's have decimated if not totally eliminated Pheasants and Quail populations in my area of my State.

But as a law abiding citizen, I get totally revolted by the NRA Wayne LaPierre statement that the only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun.

Which I maintain is exactly the current gun problem in the USA. (1) It may be all well and fine to allow law abiding citizens to possess large quantities of firearms and ammunition, totally useless for hunting, and only practical for killing people. But if that Status quo only stayed at that, only law abiding citizens could own firearms. (2) But then we have the practical reality of home burglars, free enterprise in action, who wait until the homeowners leave their house, and rob the homeowners of their possessions. And if home burglars strike gold at a gun nut's house, they not only burgle all the valuables, they also go away with a high quality gun collection. And whoopee, I feel safer yet when those criminals are suddenly better armed than the cops. (3) But why should a psychotic potential serial killer psychotic risk being caught in a failed home burglary when they can just go to any inner city bar. And spread the word they want to purchase firearms. And get to cherry pick the highest quality pre-burgled firearms and ammunition money can buy. Why accept low quality Saturday night specials when the same money will buy the best? ( 4) But why should any self-respecting potential serial killer slum it in an inner city bar when Wayne LaPierre is their best Friend. As they can be nutty as a fruitcake, have an arrest and Psychiatric record that screams do not sell, when they can just bee bop to a NRA sponsored private gun show, and find private and sometime registered gun dealers who will sell them anything they want no questions asked. As I feel even safer yet, when I find out those private NRA advocated gun dealers got busted and fined by the Feds after te fact in the Columbine and Virgina Tech mass killings.

Thank you Wayne LaPierre and the NRA, for being the best friend for so many gun toting serial killers. And in preventing any method of responsibly regulating guns in the USA.
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
0
You know, taking an incident like this and using it as an excuse to get on your soapbox and preach about your gun rights and not just S'ingTFU and letting people vent for a few days makes you look like an asshole. An asshole with a gun. And doesn't help your position.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
You know, taking an incident like this and using it as an excuse to get on your soapbox and preach about your gun rights and not just S'ingTFU and letting people vent for a few days makes you look like an asshole. An asshole with a gun. And doesn't help your position.

You mean letting an emotional mob looking for a false sense a of safety run wild on the streets lynching and burning anything in site? This was a horrible incident but one cannot let those who play on emotions to increase the power of government to get a foot in the door. Hell 9/11 was awful and look what occurred and what we got out of that "rights" wise when the mob was a allowed to run wild. Enjoy you TSA screening.

"TSA Detains 12-year-old Wheelchair Bound Girl as 'Bomb Threat'"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAcNulL_G3o

Now tell me who is the asshole again?
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
0
You mean letting an emotional mob looking for a false sense a of safety run wild on the streets lynching and burning anything in site? This was a horrible incident but one cannot let those who play on emotions to increase the power of government to get a foot in the door. Hell 9/11 was awful and look what occurred and what we got out of that "rights" wise when the mob was a allowed to run wild. Enjoy you TSA screening.

"TSA Detains 12-year-old Wheelchair Bound Girl as 'Bomb Threat'"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAcNulL_G3o

Now tell me who is the asshole again?

At the moment, you are.
 
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lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
Right to bear arms, doesn't describe exactly what that is defined as.

Citizens can't roll around in tanks or fly unmanned armed drones.

I think making assault weapons harder to get is a good thing.

You have a right to bear arms not the right to have any weapon you choose.

It's time this country clamps down on the firepower that can easily be obtained by private citizens.
 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
Right to bear arms, doesn't describe exactly what that is defined as.

Citizens can't roll around in tanks or fly unmanned armed drones.

I think making assault weapons harder to get is a good thing.

You have a right to bear arms not the right to have any weapon you choose.

It's time this country clamps down on the firepower that can easily be obtained by private citizens.

You'd be surprised how giving each citizen one good battle rifle with jacketed rounds can slow down an invading army.

Hitler didnt even bother invading countries with armed homes.
 

lotus503

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2005
6,502
1
76
You'd be surprised how giving each citizen one good battle rifle with jacketed rounds can slow down an invading army.

Hitler didnt even bother invading countries with armed homes.

That's the 1940s, and I have more concern about nuts with assault weapons than invading armies.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
You mean letting an emotional mob looking for a false sense a of safety run wild on the streets lynching and burning anything in site? This was a horrible incident but one cannot let those who play on emotions to increase the power of government to get a foot in the door. Hell 9/11 was awful and look what occurred and what we got out of that "rights" wise when the mob was a allowed to run wild. Enjoy you TSA screening.

"TSA Detains 12-year-old Wheelchair Bound Girl as 'Bomb Threat'"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAcNulL_G3o

Now tell me who is the asshole again?

The difference is that nobody protested ALL increased security after 9/11, and they certainly didn't start protesting security measures that hadn't happened yet 5 minutes after the attacks. And they definitely didn't start by protesting imaginary controls on key things that helped the attackers carry out their attacks. Post 9/11 security definitely has gone overboard, but you still would look like a pretty big asshole arguing on 9/12 that our biggest problem was people who wanted more airport security.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Citizens have no need to be armed with mass killing machines.

Hell, I am against government intervention. I am against having an army. I don't think there is any need for that shit in this modern world.

You may argue that only 0.5% of the crimes are using 'legal' weapons, but the fact is that these companies are manufacturing guns because people are buying them LEGALLY. If you cut off their demand then they don't manufacture anymore.

Guns are also too cheap. Why don't they tax the shit out of them like cigarettes?

You are quickly working your way into the top five morons on this forum, congratulations.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
Right to bear arms, doesn't describe exactly what that is defined as.

Citizens can't roll around in tanks or fly unmanned armed drones.

I think making assault weapons harder to get is a good thing.

You have a right to bear arms not the right to have any weapon you choose.

It's time this country clamps down on the firepower that can easily be obtained by private citizens.

Assault rifles are already pretty hard to get, and insanely expensive, but you are probably referring ignorantly to their semi auto, civilian version, military "styled" rifles.
 

Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,345
2
81
You know, taking an incident like this and using it as an excuse to get on your soapbox and preach about your gun rights and not just S'ingTFU and letting people vent for a few days makes you look like an asshole. An asshole with a gun. And doesn't help your position.

And let's conveniently not mention the numerous anti-gun individuals getting up on the same soapbox.
 

xj0hnx

Diamond Member
Dec 18, 2007
9,262
3
76
You know, taking an incident like this and using it as an excuse to get on your soapbox and preach about your gun rights and not just S'ingTFU and letting people vent for a few days makes you look like an asshole. An asshole with a gun. And doesn't help your position.

Blow it out your ass you self-righteous shit bag hypocrite. You progressive fuck wits exploit every innocent's death you can to get on your own soapbox, and shower your bullshit on everyone.
 

stormkroe

Golden Member
May 28, 2011
1,550
97
91
Intent makes a big difference if your going to compare the two.

One is an accident, one is done on purpose.

Use knife murders or something else done on purpose with a specific tool if you want a legit comparison.

I agree, intent makes a difference. Exactly what does a person intend to do when they get into a 4000 pound car while they're stone drunk? What are the chances they're going to make the trip without killing someone? 75%? Lots of variables in there, so lets look at it from the other direction. What percentage of killing someone on the road is TOO HIGH to let them get by? EVERY drunk driver should be charged with attempted murder, after they get an ass-beating by no fewer than 3 cops.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,127
5,657
126
The senseless killings will continue until enough people pull their heads out of their asses.
 

DucatiMonster696

Diamond Member
Aug 13, 2009
4,269
1
71
The difference is that nobody protested ALL increased security after 9/11, and they certainly didn't start protesting security measures that hadn't happened yet 5 minutes after the attacks. And they definitely didn't start by protesting imaginary controls on key things that helped the attackers carry out their attacks. Post 9/11 security definitely has gone overboard, but you still would look like a pretty big asshole arguing on 9/12 that our biggest problem was people who wanted more airport security.

Only to the assholes who were pushing for more expanded government involvement in airport security are were willing to play on the emotions of the public and use the deaths of 3,000 Americans to push their agenda.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,325
15,124
136
Lots of stupidity in this thread on both sides. One side argues with emotion and the other uses logical fallacies. Neither make a good point and neither address the issue of gun violence but keep talking idiots, I think we are getting some where./s


I also loved the Obama rant. Another fucking idiot with a gun talking out of his ass and making shit up. But hey, is it any different than a non gun owner talking out of his as and making shit up? I'd say one might think "might equals right" but then I'd point out that they are probably the exact kind of person that shouldn't have a gun (it's a mental issue, not a gun issue).
 
Oct 16, 1999
10,490
4
0
And let's conveniently not mention the numerous anti-gun individuals getting up on the same soapbox.

Mentioned.

You know, taking an incident like this and using it as an excuse to get on your soapbox and preach about your gun rights and not just S'ingTFU and letting people vent for a few days makes you look like an asshole. An asshole with a gun. And doesn't help your position.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,034
2,613
136
Personally to me its a cost benefit analysis. The second amendment was instituted not for home defense from your neighbor but home defense from the government (ie a well organized militia is necessary to assure security of a free state and the rights of people to bear arms shall not be infringed. Go read it yourself. I think its pretty hard to argue jefferson was thinking about US citizens shooting other US citizens in non war/ non uprising situations). Somehow over time that second amendment was morphed into all this personal protection stuff (right to carry, right to own, right to use in this situation and that situation etc) that really isn't in the constitution.

Anyway, about 10k people die each year via handguns. I think since the US has been a country 0 tyrants have been overthrown here with weapons unless you're counting lincoln, and he technically was not overthrown anyway. And many other countries without proliferative gun laws have managed to overthrow tyrants despite the soldiers being heavily armed and the people not being. The thing to remember is: soldiers are people too and they get tired and annoyed when they have to kill innocents and family members for a dick who sits in an ivory palace, shooting at them doesn't necessarily speed the process up either. In terms of overthrowing a tyrant, an armed populace brings very little to the table compared to say just a pissed off populace. (refer to pretty much every revolution/overthrow/etc in the history of the world. I think you'd be hard pressed to find one where the pure deaths of soldiers at the hands of an armed populace was the major driving factor for the overthrow of a dictator. Its usually way more dissent from the populace, the soldiers, and foreign pressure, support, and intervention)

Its a dangerous world out there. You can be hit by a car any day of the week for example. In fact you are way more likely to die in a car wreck than in any sort of gun related incident. Yet it doesn't make sense to have people rolling around in iron tanks in order to minimize the risk that IF some evil person decided to use their car to cause harm, you would have some protection. The gun argument honestly is the same. You can argue if that evil person in his car came, and you didn't have your big tank you would pray you you had a big tank and that the cops would come and save you and etc, but gee it sounds kind of ridiculous when you're talking about protection from car wielding maniacs, but when you're talking about gun wielding maniacs it seems to work for a lot of people.

On the flip side you could argue, gee honestly gun violence is so rare and kills so few people (10k a year compared to say 500,000 k from heart disease alone or the 100k motor vehicle accidents a year, or the smoking related deaths and etc) that perhaps we're overresponding to what is areally a very very trivial issue.

Again, cost benefit analysis and honestly I could go either way. I lean more towards the gun control crowd especially when I hear stories about how in germany the entire police force uses like 36 live bullets a year and ask myself gee why can't we do that here?
 
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Farmer

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2003
3,345
2
81
Personally to me its a cost benefit analysis. The second amendment was instituted not for home defense from your neighbor but home defense from the government (ie a well organized militia is necessary to assure security of a free state and the rights of people to bear arms shall not be infringed. Go read it yourself. I think its pretty hard to argue jefferson was thinking about US citizens shooting other US citizens in non war/ non uprising situations). Somehow over time that second amendment was morphed into all this personal protection stuff (right to carry, right to own, right to use in this situation and that situation etc) that really isn't in the constitution.

That's an interpretation that is left to the Supreme Court. You can express your opinion, but I can hardly imagine that you yourself are the final authority on Constitutional intent.

Not for home defense against your neighbor? There was no Constitutional provison for a police force. Does that mean the correct interpretation was that the founding fathers desired us to not defend ourselves? No, I think it would be common sense to think that a firearm is the perfect tool for self defense. Perhaps they didn't envision a society that has lost common sense.

On the flip side you could argue, gee honestly gun violence is so rare and kills so few people (10k a year compared to say 500,000 k from heart disease alone or the 100k motor vehicle accidents a year, or the smoking related deaths and etc) that perhaps we're overresponding to what is areally a very very trivial issue.

I believe there is always some notion that gun deaths are "preventable" while disease or accidents are "less preventable," which I do not understand. Gun ownership is a freedom, there will be individuals who abuse this freedom and cause deaths. The hairy question is, is this freedom worth the lives lost?

Again, cost benefit analysis and honestly I could go either way. I lean more towards the gun control crowd especially when I hear stories about how in germany the entire police force uses like 36 live bullets a year and ask myself gee why can't we do that here?

To not even delve into early 20th century history, Germany is not the United States. German society and, in turn, government, is very sensitive regarding violence and it's portrayal in media. The United States, on the other hand, this is almost the polar opposite.
 
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AnyMal

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
15,780
0
76
Citizens have no need to be armed with mass killing machines.

Hell, I am against government intervention. I am against having an army. I don't think there is any need for that shit in this modern world.

You may argue that only 0.5% of the crimes are using 'legal' weapons, but the fact is that these companies are manufacturing guns because people are buying them LEGALLY. If you cut off their demand then they don't manufacture anymore.

Guns are also too cheap. Why don't they tax the shit out of them like cigarettes?
There are several artifacts in your house that can be relatively easy modified to become "mass killing machines". If someone has will and intent, the will find a way.
 
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