Gun Control!

LtPage1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2004
6,311
2
0
OK, so- this is for an ethics course. I get to choose my own topic, and I selected gun control, to explore ethically. About as open-ended as a prompt can get, so I can go any way I want with it.

I don't care about your personal opinion on gun control. If all you're here to do is spout out the same old rubbish about the Second Amendment or why you hate guns, leave now. I'm looking for well-reasoned ethical arguments for the point of view I'm taking in this paper.

After some research, I've decided to go with a pro-gun rights stance. I've got it mostly written now, but I realized that I haven't really nailed down whether I'm arguing against handgun prohibition, or just hardcore gun control.

Can you guys give me some arguments as to why it's not ok (or why it is) to have things like waiting periods, background checks, age restrictions, restrictive CCW policies/legislation, bans on "assault weapons," etc.?
Thanks.
 

Witling

Golden Member
Jul 30, 2003
1,448
0
0
I'm not big on helping people with their homework but, if you haven't seen it, you might want to rent the movie Bowling for Columbine. Michael Moore provides a bunch of statistics. He also makes it look like Charleton Heston rushed to the Columbine location to support gun ownership. It didn't happen quite that way.

[Edited] I think you've chosen a tough topic. I'm quite anti-gun but I really don't see gun ownership or use as an ethical issue. There are responsible gun owners and irresponsible gun owners. It's pretty much like any other tool from an ethical standpoint.
 

LtPage1

Diamond Member
Jan 15, 2004
6,311
2
0
I'm not looking for someone to create my essay for me, just for some arguments to be presented and debated (ok, yelled about)

I've seen Bowling for Columbine, and it seemed crazy biased. As far as ethics goes, I think that people have a right to defend themselves, and a right to be allowed to do so. Therefore, the state has no business telling people they can't own guns. My question has to do with what kind of regulation society can impose, if any.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
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For another view, see if you can find the book "More Guns, Less Crime", by John R. Lott, Jr. He's a Harvard professor who has poured over a huge number of statistics. It turns out that more children die from drowning in 5 gallon buckets (not the 4 or 6 gallon buckets, just the five gallon buckets) than are killed by guns when you remove the older "children" who are involved with the drug trade from the stats.

 

homercles337

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2004
6,340
3
71
There is absolutely no need for anyone in this society to own a gun other than for the "sport" of hunting. There is your paper. Youre welcome.
 
Oct 30, 2004
11,442
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How would people be able to defend themselves against horrific governments without guns? What if the Liberals tried to forcibly turn the nation into a communist dictatorship or the Conservatives tried to turn it into a religious dictatorship? What if the religionists took over and decided to start sending secular people to concentration camps? What if the socialists took over and decided to start sending anyone who didn't vote for them to concentration camps?

What happens if a large, muscular person breaks into your place with a big knife or a bow 'n' arrow?

There are plenty of very legitimate reasons for people to want to own guns, primarily for self-defense against both criminals and tyrannical governments.

 

ScudRunner

Banned
May 23, 2006
102
0
0
Originally posted by: homercles337
There is absolutely no need for anyone in this society to own a gun other than for the "sport" of hunting. There is your paper. Youre welcome.


There is absolutely no need for people like you in this country!
 

HBalzer

Golden Member
Jul 17, 2005
1,259
1
0
Originally posted by: homercles337
There is absolutely no need for anyone in this society to own a gun other than for the "sport" of hunting. There is your paper. Youre welcome.

That is all i use my gun for, i hunt criminals that try to hurt me or my family.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: LtPage1
After some research, I've decided to go with a pro-gun rights stance. I've got it mostly written now, but I realized that I haven't really nailed down whether I'm arguing against handgun prohibition, or just hardcore gun control.

Might as well argue against all forms of gun control. If nothing else it makes for a bit more fire in the paper, and creates more debate.

Can you guys give me some arguments as to why it's not ok (or why it is) to have things like waiting periods, background checks, age restrictions, restrictive CCW policies/legislation, bans on "assault weapons," etc.?
Thanks.

Waiting period - Most people dont wake up one day and decide to go kill someone so go buy a gun. Usually, if you want to commit a crime or kill someone you most likely already own a gun. While it sounds good on paper, very very few crimes are commited by people who bought the gun that day. More importantly, waiting periods make it difficult to buy a gun if you need one quickly. An example is a woman who fears for her life from an ex. So while shes waiting for her waiting period to expire shes a potential victim.

Background checks - It keeps the criminals from having guns......Of course they just buy them face to face from their friends. Minimal checks are a good thing IMO. The problem is when they start going to far on the checks and turn it into registration. A more interesting debate to this is why do we need background checks? Criminals who are deemed unsafe to own a gun shouldnt be on the streets! In other words, if you've served your time and have been released from jail then the asusmption is you're reformed. So you should have every right to a gun, as the Powers That Be have shown they think you're reformed.......

Age restrictions - It keeps kids from going and buying pistols and doing something stupid. No one could ever agree on a good age though. Some say 16, some 18, some 21. Who knows?

Restrictive CCW - Why restrict it? The point of CCW is to defend yourself from potential harm. It makes no sense to have law abiding citizens unable to defend themselves, when you know criminals do not follow the laws.
 

AlricTheMad

Member
Jun 25, 2001
125
0
0
I agree with Whitling. I can't see any ethical issue with gun control one way or another.
The only good reason for controling who has guns and who doesn't is responsible behavior on the part of the owner, however how does that get enforced. No way to identify who will one day filp and kill co-workers or leave it out for her kids to play with.

Maybe you could work in something about the responsibilities that go along with rights and how it's difficult to enforce responsible behavior, therefore creating limitations on access may help.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,136
4,831
136
Criminals do not abide by the law in the first place. Gun laws only restrict the law abiding citizens from obtaining weapons. Criminals will obtain them outside of the system like they always have via gun runners just like drug dealers. I am vehemently opposed to laws that restrict the law abiding citizens from obtaining and owning guns. A gun is a tool like anything else. What if somebody ran into a convenience store with a large chain saw and attacked the patrons. Would we be trying to ban chain saws next? How many times has someone used a car to run somebody over or a base ball bat to hurt someone? If a person wants to do harm to another they will use whatever is at their disposal to do so.
 

dardin211

Senior member
Oct 3, 2002
324
0
71
I personally would not recommend writing a term paper on this subject matter. Not due to your stance, but mainly because of how strongly people can feel on this matter one way or another. Unless you?re sure that your stance reflects that of your teachers on this matter, or you trust your teacher to be fair even if he/she does not agree with your point of view.

This is just based on my own past experience.

 

jackschmittusa

Diamond Member
Apr 16, 2003
5,972
1
0
Most gun laws of recent times are either unproductive or even counterproductive.

Registration laws cause people who fear the government may one day decide to confiscate all guns to buy guns that they know they will never register anyway.

People who want a gun for home defence most often choose a handgun. When handguns are barred by thier community, the next choice is almost always a shotgun. You are more than 10 times more likely to die from a shotgun wound than a handgun wound. So much for life-saving legislation.

The assault rife ban is a joke. It mostly means banning any intimidating looking long arm. Semi-auto rifles are not truly assault rifles in any real sense anyway, it just makes them sound more deadly. You can take a very ordinary Ruger Mini-14, add a bipod, collapable stock, and a flash hider and magically transform it into an "assault rifle" that is banned under some laws. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Several studies have been done over the years involving career criminals. Among the conclusions, that the bad guys look for easy targets, and would definitly avoid a possible confrontation with someone they know is armed and and proficient.

Morten Grove, Ill. passed a handgun ban several years ago. In response, the city of Kennesaw, Ga. passed an ordinance requiring all able-bodied and mentally competent adults in the city to have a handgun. Grove City's crime rate continued to climb after the ban, while Kennesaw's declined.

The media often seems to assign either ignorant reporters or sensationalist ones to cover "gun" stories. Publishing things like the theoretical rate of fire of a semi-auto weapon is nothing but a scare tactic. Since no one could possibly fire but a fraction of the theoretical rate in reality, it serves only to make the ignorant readers believe that the weapon is as deadly as a belt-fed machinegun. Gee, Mom wouldn't want anyone in the neighborhood to have one of these things! Years ago, the press picked up on a sensational story about cop-killer, teflon coated bullits. Until the media frenzy, 99% of the people in the country had never heard of them. The "cop-killer" label was a big lie too as no cop had ever been shot with one, let alone killed by one. I even read that the teflon was what allowed the bullits to penetrate body armor, which was one of the stupidist things I have ever read. (The bullits could penetrate soft armor because the had an extreme point and were of such hard bronze that they would not deform. The teflon was just to protect the gun's rifling as the bullits were harder than the gun barrel.) They also neglected to mention that most rifles will penetrate soft armor with ordinary FMJ rounds, making it sound like the cops were impervious to bullits until this horrible KTW round appeared.

I always cheered for the people mentioned in the "Armed citizen" column in each month's "American Rifleman" magizine. Ordinary people who successfully defended themselves or their loved ones from bad guys using their personal weapons.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,442
211
106
Google Gary Mauser
He is a Canadian researcher who has compared the very restrictive examples in the UK and Aus with the US showing just the very side your hoping to argue
Very credible Univeristy PHD

This is the champion site of Canadians against firearm registration
http://www.lufa.ca/
 

homercles337

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2004
6,340
3
71
Originally posted by: ScudRunner
Originally posted by: homercles337
There is absolutely no need for anyone in this society to own a gun other than for the "sport" of hunting. There is your paper. Youre welcome.


There is absolutely no need for people like you in this country!

Use that non-hunting weapon on yourself. Fun will ensue, i promise you.
 

homercles337

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2004
6,340
3
71
Originally posted by: HBalzer
Originally posted by: homercles337
There is absolutely no need for anyone in this society to own a gun other than for the "sport" of hunting. There is your paper. Youre welcome.

That is all i use my gun for, i hunt criminals that try to hurt me or my family.

Uh, huh. Just wait until you have to actually use it and it gets used ON YOU. Fun had by all! Yea!
 

ECUHITMAN

Senior member
Jun 21, 2001
815
0
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007

Waiting period - Most people dont wake up one day and decide to go kill someone so go buy a gun. Usually, if you want to commit a crime or kill someone you most likely already own a gun. While it sounds good on paper, very very few crimes are commited by people who bought the gun that day. More importantly, waiting periods make it difficult to buy a gun if you need one quickly. An example is a woman who fears for her life from an ex. So while shes waiting for her waiting period to expire shes a potential victim.

While I agree and disagree with the waiting period the situation your argument about the woman fearing for her life is a bit extreme, but for the sake of argument I would ask does this woman that is fearing for her life have any training in loading and shooting a gun? If not, she really does not need one as statically she is more likely to have it taken away and used against her than she is for the purpose of using it to defend her self. Besides she could just as easily go stay at a friends house, or a hotel, or call the police (or go to the police station).

But in the end, the idea of a waiting period was less so the person could cool off as it was to complete the background check. 5+ or so years ago it took longer to do a background check so the waiting period was put into place, today there is not a waiting period because background checks are pretty instantaneous.

Background checks - It keeps the criminals from having guns......Of course they just buy them face to face from their friends. Minimal checks are a good thing IMO. The problem is when they start going to far on the checks and turn it into registration. A more interesting debate to this is why do we need background checks? Criminals who are deemed unsafe to own a gun shouldnt be on the streets! In other words, if you've served your time and have been released from jail then the asusmption is you're reformed. So you should have every right to a gun, as the Powers That Be have shown they think you're reformed.......

Being reformed (which is not something they do in Prison) and being punished for committing a crime are separate issues. I would say going to prison is a punishment and when you come out you may be reformed due to your own personal desire to start a new life, or you may not. If you are a felon, you should not and have no reason to own a firearm. If you think that is unfair to the felon, maybe they should not commit a felony in the first place.

Second, background checks are a good idea because there is no reason not to create at least some kind of paper trail surrounding the buying of a firearm. Also it helps avoid people using fake ID's and other ways to get around this law. The idea that criminals will always get guns illegally so the only thing this does is make it more difficult for law abiding citizens to get a gun is true. No one ever said background checks and registration of firearms is really going to effect criminals, but what it does is protect law abiding citizens because they have proof they did what then needed to when they bought the firearm. Criminals that got the gun illegally will have no proof, and will be charged with a crime.


Age restrictions - It keeps kids from going and buying pistols and doing something stupid. No one could ever agree on a good age though. Some say 16, some 18, some 21. Who knows?

The same could be true for all things that effect the general public, such as driving a car. The only thing I can say is, I remember doing some pretty dumb and dangerous things when I was 16 (I would assume most people did dumb and dangerous things when they were 16) so should 16 year olds have legal access to firearms? It would depend on the 16 year old, and the law does not work that way.

Restrictive CCW - Why restrict it? The point of CCW is to defend yourself from potential harm. It makes no sense to have law abiding citizens unable to defend themselves, when you know criminals do not follow the laws.

Restrict CCW's how? Like where you can or cannot take your concealed weapon? I am thinking there is a good reason for that. I am not sure you really need to take your gun into court or to the bank. True, criminals do not follow the laws (hence the reason why they are called criminals) but that said, I think that going into a bank with a cocealed weapon is kind of dumb as the teller could freak out and think you are trying to rob the bank if she/he saw it.

In the end, if you do a search for concealed weapons statistics you find various reports on how lax CCW law and strict CCW laws have reduced crime. For example:

In the 29 states that have lax CCW laws (where law enforcement must issue CCW licenses to almost all applicants), the crime rate fell 2.1%, from 5397.0 to 5285.1 crimes per 100,000 population from 1996 to 1997. During the same time period, in the 21 states and the District of Columbia with strict carry laws or which don?t allow the carrying of concealed weapons at all, the crime rate fell 4.4%, from 4810.5 to 4599.9 crimes per 100,000 population.
Link to Brady Campaign

According to this website there is 50% more crime in states with lax CCW laws.

or this:

Violent crime rates are highest overall in states with laws severely limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed firearms for self-defense. (FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 1992) -

The total Violent Crime Rate is 26% higher in the restrictive states (798.3 per 100,000 pop.) than in the less restrictive states (631.6 per 100,000).
Link to NRA CCW Statistics

According to this website there is a 26% more violent crime in states that allow CCW's.
 

Todd33

Diamond Member
Oct 16, 2003
7,842
2
81
You are ethically explorering pro-gun rights? WTF does that mean? What ethics deal with the rights to own a gun?

Guns are designed to kill people. If you want to hunt for food use a bolt action or cross bow. If you want to kill people in urban setting use a 15 round semi-automatic pistol or assualt rifle. Don't forget your right to use AP bullets...
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,198
5,776
126
How about: The Ethics of getting Others to do Your Work

It is Your paper, You need to come up with the arguements. If you don't know the arguements, choose a different topic.
 

Puffnstuff

Lifer
Mar 9, 2005
16,136
4,831
136
Will you please define for us what an armor piercing bullet is? I am a gun owner and I do not have access to real armor piercing bullets as only the military has them and only for certain caliber weapons that are not publicly available. As for assault weapons do you know what the term assault means? Do you believe that an "assault weapon" is something that magically blows away its target with a single round? When you assault something you have to hit it multiple times. I could go to walmart and get a rifle with more hit than the dreaded assault rifle. And please tell us about your personal firearms training and knowledge as well as military service.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: desy
Google Gary Mauser
He is a Canadian researcher who has compared the very restrictive examples in the UK and Aus with the US showing just the very side your hoping to argue
Very credible Univeristy PHD

This is the champion site of Canadians against firearm registration
http://www.lufa.ca/

Statistics can be made to support any argument in the world.

This is one reason people pay big money for them.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: desy
Which statistics are you referring to?

Any statistics! Pick your subject. Heres a perfect example. the Brady Bunch...err...Campaign says guns are bad and gives stats to back that up. The NRA says guns are good and gives stats to back it up.
Whos right?

You have to really study the stats to understand what is going on and look for the bigger picture.
 

desy

Diamond Member
Jan 13, 2000
5,442
211
106
Gary's statistics show over 40 yrs violent crime has been falling in every culture
independant of more, or less restrictive gun control, ergo there is some other factor which is reducing the voilence rate.
While statistically the US has a much higher firearm homocide rate than other 1st world countries its homicide rate is dropping even faster than others in spite of liberalized gun laws in most states.
Death is one statistic its hard to refute, violent crimes? Hard to prove, could be reporting issues, prosecution leeway but a body is awfull hard to 'explain' away
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: desy
Gary's statistics show over 40 yrs violent crime has been falling in every culture
independant of more, or less restrictive gun control, ergo there is some other factor which is reducing the voilence rate.
While statistically the US has a much higher firearm homocide rate than other 1st world countries its homicide rate is dropping even faster than others in spite of liberalized gun laws in most states.
Death is one statistic its hard to refute, violent crimes? Hard to prove, could be reporting issues, prosecution leeway but a body is awfull hard to 'explain' away

I'm not saying stats are flat out wrong, simply that they can be displayed ina light to support ones personal agenda. Which is why its important to understand what one is looking at. Its one thing to say "Violent crime fell 5% in states with gun control, and 2.5% in states without gun control".
Great. And of those violent crimes, how many were commited with a firearm. A figure generally left out, among other details.
 
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