We already have tons and tons of gun restrictions, as well as many laws against various kinds of killing. I can't think of any further gun control measure that wouln't violate the 2nd Amendment but would effectively reduce or end mass shooting. To propose all we need is a bit more common sense gun control and it will fix everything is silly at best, and an outright lie when uttered by organization who ultimately want to end the personal ownership of firearms in America.It doesn't get suggested so often, you just live in a bubble where the only option to reduce gun violence is to ban guns. To gun nutters any restriction looks like a gun ban.
We already have tons and tons of gun restrictions, as well as many laws against various kinds of killing. I can't think of any further gun control measure that wouln't violate the 2nd Amendment but would effectively reduce or end mass shooting. To propose all we need is a bit more common sense gun control and it will fix everything is silly at best, and an outright lie when uttered by organization who ultimately want to end the personal ownership of firearms in America.
Nothing I said was exaggerated or meant in jest. You seem to be calling for reasonable gun control and blaming me for thinking that means you want to ban guns. If you don't, then what does it mean? As I said, I can't think of any further law we could pass that would stop a mass shooter. Everything about a mass shooting is already illegal. The only laws that would even begin to work would have to effectively remove guns from public access, or in other words ban them, so someone intent of a mass shooting doesn't have the tools to do it with. If you can figure out a way to do that without banning guns then I'm listening.Well perhaps you could use a little more hyperbole and you could come up with a solution.
/s
Idiot gun nutters
You would need to do it as deaths per gun OWNER for it to be at all meaningful.
I appreciate you shooting for (hat) a fact based approach but when gun ownership is so heavily concentrated in people who own large numbers of guns you can’t just do a guns to deaths ratio.
Gun ownership (also sometimes called "gun availability" or "gun prevalence") has been measured via numerous proxies, including the % of suicides committed with firearms, the % of homicides committed with firearms,[10] the "Cook index" (the average of the % of homicides committed with firearms and the % of suicides committed with firearms),[11] and the number of officially issued firearm licenses.[12] The % of suicides committed with firearms (often abbreviated "FS/S" for "firearm suicides/overall suicides") correlates most strongly with survey estimates of gun ownership. Accordingly, it is considered the best proxy for examining the relationship between gun ownership and crime across multiple U.S. states or large counties.[13]
Yes access to guns will impact success or even attempts to commit suicide. That doesn't translate to what you tried to do with this thread.If that data were available, what would you expect to see?
Interestingly, Wikipedia sez that suicide by gun can be a reliable proxy for gun owners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership
What a strange statistic to calculate. Particularly considering that many of the guns in the US are in the possession of a small number of people, who own umpteen guns each. Not at all sure that it is a particularly meaningful statistic, given that point. Someone with 30 guns isn't going to kill themselves 30 times over, and even a spree killer is likely to only get any effective benefit to their killing rate from 2 or 3 at most.
I would expect the killings-per-gun to be lower in the US due to the sheer number of guns that are held as part of large collections, merely out of a compulsive collecting impulse, and never used. But the existence of those 'display pieces' probably does increase the flow of guns into the criminal market (due to thefts and dodgy sales).
On the other hand, even though it seems a very dubious stat, it's still data, and possibly there's something interesting in there somewhere.
Curious that the gun suicide rate in the UK is so low, even when expressed per-gun. Brits just don't go out that way, apparently. I wonder if that's partly cultural, that different cultures have different traditions of self-annihilation?
The mention of Serbia brings up a tangential thought - that there are a lot of guns in the Balkan countries, and Schengen makes it much easier to move those guns to the rest of the EU. And if Kosovo or Serbia join the EU that issue will get worse.
Another point is that as far as I am aware, France doesn't have particularly strong gun control anyway - nothing like the UK. Not all European countries are the same in that respect.
I wonder why Ireland is so high in that table? Does it have a lot of gun deaths, or do Irish gun-killers just get a lot of use out of the few guns they have? I wonder if that's due to a lot of the guns in the country being in the possession of a few criminal gangs? Or is it isolated farmers wielding shotguns (so tempted to add 'while drunk', but that's probably unfair stereotyping).
Yes access to guns will impact success or even attempts to commit suicide. That doesn't translate to what you tried to do with this thread.
It is very easy to get a firearm in NZ. I'm not sure where you got the idea it has strict gun laws from. It has strict anti-handgun and anti-assault rifle laws but any joe can get a rifle or shotgun for "hunting". All you need is a police check which will include an interview at the local cop station and a cop to visit your house to make sure you're not a nutter. That's it.
It means if you are suicidal and have access to a gun the chance that you will use it AND be successful goes up comparative to any other method. Have gun will travel.What does it translate to?
If that data were available, what would you expect to see?
Interestingly, Wikipedia sez that suicide by gun can be a reliable proxy for gun owners.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership
To me it indicates less desperation, more general prosperity, and less depression.
To me it indicates less desperation, more general prosperity, and less depression.
There's also access to the right type of gun I would suspect. Having trouble finding stats on it but I would think suicide by rifle would be far less likely than by handgun all things being equal.I'd like to believe that, but the point is those factors would be relevant if the stat was about lower suicide rates overall, whereas this is 'suicide per gun'. The curious thing about that stat is it that it suggests one of the following three explanations
(a) suicide rates overall are a _lot_ lower than other countries, giving a lower rate despite the very low level of gun ownership (the most boring explanation, albeit the happiest)
(b) even when they have gun (which most don't, obviously) Brits still choose some other method to do themselves in. Suggesting a cultural influence.
(c) there's a negative correlation between being the kind of Brit who does have access to a gun and being suicidal (i.e. those British people who have guns, are less likely to be depressed in the first place than those who don't...which seems surprising given that farmers are more likely to have a gun and are not noticeably happy people)
I think there is much research to suggest that suicide rates don't decrease as prosperity increases. If I recall correctly, high suicide rates are most prevalent in the first world.
There's also access to the right type of gun I would suspect. Having trouble finding stats on it but I would think suicide by rifle would be far less likely than by handgun all things being equal.
Needs more pirates and climate change correlation but I like where you are going.The more interesting statistic is Gun Owners and Cat v Dog Owners. However, this data is only valid when you filter out those who also have Spiders and/or Snakes as pets.
You make a good case for this to be broken down by color. Statistics don't lie. But why is that? Are darker people just different? I believe at it's core most crime is rooted in poverty. That's not trying to excuse it, but to offer as an alternate reason that crime affects different racial communities differently. I would like to see how many Hispanic immigrants (or the roots of their families) came here to live the Great American Dream only to find it wasn't what they expected, where they would occupy a vast underclass of labor, doing the jobs that whites wouldn't lower themselves to do (edit: if they find jobs at all). At the southern border, immigrants see two signs; "Help Wanted" and "Go Away". What about the great amount of children born in their mostly Catholic families who don't get much support in childhood and end up in gangs for the sense of belonging we all desire?Pretty sure it is a safe bet those black and hispanic street gangs are the ones that make up the majority of gang totals...Chicago, Detroit, Philadephia and Baltimore arent known for their ruthless white gangs....And then factor in all of the gang violence from the Mexican cartels in the border states...
I'm not controlled by or a shill for gun manufacturers, and I don't own a single gun out of fear. I own guns because I like the history of them, target shooting and I hunt a bit. Self-defense is a very tertiary reason for having them, but if I did ever need one in self defense I'd rather have one than not. But I don't own guns because of the evil machinations of some cold-blooded corporation as you suggest.
And fuck you for accusing folks in the gun owing or gun manufacturing community of valuing money over the lives of children. Shame on you. We're just angry that you are blaming us rather than blaming the few evil individuals who actually committed those horrific shootings. Remember, 99.9%+ of civilian owned guns in the U.S. are never used to hurt more than a target, tin can or deer. We don't want to be judged by the action of a few sick/crazies just like no other group should be.
Lastly, if you think your only option is resilience, which I assume means harden your heart and accept gun murders, I would say you are absolutely wrong. We can teach our children better, care better for the mentally ill, and work harder to identify and track those who are criminally violent and strip them of gun ownership rights. We could also end the drug war and the illegal drug trade that kills so many in this country.
Passing more laws to strip the law-abiding of their right to own guns, even if it was possible to accomplish, would only leave the criminals armed and do nothing to stop mass shootings.
http://www.businessinsider.com/link...e-rates-san-francisco-federal-reserve-2012-11I think there is much research to suggest that suicide rates don't decrease as prosperity increases. If I recall correctly, high suicide rates are most prevalent in the first world.
deaths per gun per year seems like an odd statistic to me. Dont we have like 400 million guns? So wouldnt the number of guns dilute the numbers?
Got any proof of the bolded? I researched this about a year ago, and the research didn't line up with this republican talking point. IIRC, DV actually accounted for the majority of gun homicides, not gangs.So does tha homicide rate include deaths related to illegal drugs and gangs? As we now the majority of firearm deaths in the U.S. are suicides. Roughly 29,000 per leaving ~11,000 firearm deaths that are not suicide. Of the 11,000 the vast majority is gang violence.
Data collected by the National Gang Center, the government agency responsible for cataloging gang violence, makes clear that it’s the latter. There were 1,824 gang-related killings in 2011. This total includes deaths by means other than a gun. The Bureau of Justice Statistics finds this number to be even lower, identifying a little more than 1,000 gang-related homicides in 2008. In comparison, there were 11,101 homicides and 19,766 suicides committed with firearms in 2011.
so you're saying fuck the bird owners. Fine. Bastard.The more interesting statistic is Gun Owners and Cat v Dog Owners. However, this data is only valid when you filter out those who also have Spiders and/or Snakes as pets.
so you're saying fuck the bird owners. Fine. Bastard.
shit, they're on to us! go! go! go!It is well known that Bird Owners are a hoax perpetuated by the Chinese!