Gun Freedom? Well, I guess we'll just keep opening up the ground and putting dead bodies in it

[ToBeMe]

Jmman..........A yeah, I do have a source and no, it wasn't "pulled from my butt".......remember the little Presidential Election thing that went on last year?........well, that's the number Gore was questioned about in the third debate when he answered he had no intention of asking, or pursueing a ban on all guns........LOL!

 

[MGMorden]

With BuckMaster all the way.

 

[Napalm381]

<< To what degree it will work might be in question but it will definately save some lives. >>

More laws, right? We just don't have enough right now! We just need to find the right laws, and everything will be joyous and happy! :disgust:

 

[vi edit]

<< No one ever needs a gun. They are made for one thing and one thing only, and that's to kill.

Oh, the grocery stores are full of food, don't give me that hunting line >>




Thank you, thank you, oh sage of wisdom. Ever hear of deer, duck, goose, turkey, pheasant, quail? These game animals can save a family of 6 hundreds of dollars over the cost of grocery market meat. My family, as well as many people in my area save a lot of money, and eat much healthier because of the wild game we have taken down.

Scamper along and find a nice busy freeway to play in.

 

[BuckMaster]

I'm very surprised Russ hasnt stopped in yet! BANG! BANG!

 

[Jmman]

Tobeme.....you know, I am almost going blind going through these, and I didn't watch the debates because I didn't really care for either candidate, but I can't find that 7% number....here is a full transcript of the third debate....as a matter of fact, all 4 debates(one with the vice presidential candidates) are here in their full transcripted detail....care to help me out? link

 

[etech]

It looks like we will have to ban the Muslim religion also.

Yahoo
&quot;Civil Defense chief Brigadier General Saad bin Abdullah al-Tuwaijer said 23 women and 12 men of various nationalities were crushed or suffocated to death in the stampede on Jamarat bridge near the holy city of Mecca. The bridge was the scene of at least two earlier deadly stampedes.&quot;

It was a terrible tragedy, but if not for the religion the people would not of been there and would not have died. Makes as much sense as banning guns in the US.

 

[ToBeMe]

Whatever Jmman......LOL......To be honest I could care less it isn't going to happen at any rate! I know what I've read &amp; heard and that's all that really matters! I just find it amusing to argue with people whom know nothing except what they see in their sheltered little lives........ If anyone in here actually believes there will be a ban over the board of all guns within the forseeable future they're only fooling themselves!

 

[Jmman]

Aww, Tobeme, to me living a sheltered life is when you don't take the time to consider all sides of an argument and you base your opinions on &quot;gut&quot; instincts or propaganda, not documentable facts.....

 

[seewhy]

Well, as long as we have people like many here in the forum who think the sort of things like today's school shooting is never gonna happen to them, and gun is worth risking lifes of people around them, yeah I guess guns are never going to be banned in the US.

 

[kamiam]

<< my opinion shouldn't worry any of you Hestonites but you can bet you ass and your pointy little heads that your arguments are falling on deaf ears because they are moroninc and frankly unworthy of any retort. >>


dosn't worry me in the least Red , but I will say that your opinion is definitely in the minority...I must say though, imho, the elites that responded @ the beginning of this thread, {quoting our forfathers} hit it on the head. However I do agree w/ your retorts to napalm, and your right to express your opinion...nice non-retort

 

[JellyBaby]

seewhy,

How many freedoms would you take away before you realize banning everything in sight still wouldn't solve the problem? If not guns, bombs. If not bombs, 440 stainless samurai swords. If not swords, broken bottles.

Hate, anger, fear, depression, lack of discipline, lack of communication...these are the root problems. Society's role (and to some extent government's) is to address these issues without reverting to socialism/police state.

When I went to school, it was far easier to get a gun, any gun really. Yet no gun was ever found in my HS. School shootings weren't popularized on TV because there just weren't any. The guns didn't secretly form a pact to go out and start brainwashing kids into using them to kill their fellow citizens.

 

[ToBeMe]

Well Big J.....I believe I have considered both sides.......I've lived everywhere from NY to rual Mid-America......even had a family member murdered......saw a guy get shot in TX too! On the other hand, I've also (and am now) living in a rual area.....where I grew up and I have several relatives whom are farmers.........ever see a herd of about 200 Whitetail Deer eat money? I have because that's what they're doing when they are eating my relatives crops down to the ground! Also, what do you think would happen to the Wildlife population if hunting was stopped? Think they'd just die of &quot;natural causes&quot;? WRONG! They would become grossly overpopulated, cause more deaths &amp; accidents on roadways, spread disease from sickness to other species, and drive up the cost of food because of their feeding on grains! I personally could care less about hand guns.....never felt the need to own one, but, I do own several rifles &amp; shotguns, I keep them locked in a safe in my basement and store the amo in another safe! I sport shoot &amp; hunt quite a bit and make use of everything I kill even donating (at my cost) to the local food shelter! Yeah J, I think I've looked at it both ways and can see really clearly......it's been said many times here.....GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE.......PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE!!! I'll admitt, some people don't seem worthy of owning a gun....like the guy whom leaves his guns &amp; amo where children have any access to it.........what's needed is more education in safe handling &amp; storage of the guns!

 

[Soybomb]

<< << To what degree it will work might be in question but it will definately save some lives. >> >>


Most likely, but I'll bet other lives will be lost and crimes commited due to the lack of guns. Lets say you take away guns in a certain town. You've just kept a kid from going nuts at the school and shooting two people. At the same time though a man who used ot be able to acrry a concealed pistols was robbed on the street and shot to death for his wallet, he might have been able to kill his attacker before he was killed. On the other side of town a house was broken into. The shotgun in the corner was no longer there and the occupants were left defenseless against the intruder. The man was killed for trying to protect his wife and daughter from being raped. It happened anyway. In the end I don't seeing taking guns as lowering the death rate in this country, even though it might appear that way on the surface.

To the person who said that they bet 99% of home gun owners never use them for self defense. Way to go genius. You don't go out and try to shoot the kids tp'ing your house. If its for self defense you never want to use it. Its only there if you have to, sort of like the fire extinguisher.

Fwiw: I don't have a gun, although I've considered getting a shotgun (the one viper linked to actually). If I lived in a higher crime rate area I wouldn't hesitate. I might take up target shooting with a pistol for fun someday too.

 

[GaryTcs]

I am not unaffected by this tragedy, I have empathy for all involved. This does not mean that I am going to jump on the gun control bandwagon, however. Your goals are admirable- less gun related deaths. Unfortunately, it comes at too high a cost. All freedoms involve risks. I am prepared to accept the risks for me and those I care about to have the freedoms I currently enjoy. Although I do not believe that the government would change to evil overnight if this one freedom was removed, I do believe the balance of power would sway too far in favor of the government. What right couldn't they take after we are too feeble to fight for any rights?

Don't believe for a minute that an armed public is a pushover for a trained army. We outnumber the armed forces by a huge margin. (283 million americans vs. 1.2 million active military.) They can't &quot;take us&quot;. It wouldn't even be a long war.

Whoever said a shotgun isn't good home protection hasn't ever fired one. I can't think of a better environment for a shotgun. Not that I suggest firing one in your home.

My U.S. population number, and active military population number, linked for those who might doubt them. And before anybody labels me unable to accept risk for those I care about, let me clarify; I mean as far as I would be affected by their deaths, not that I am willing to sacrifice what is not mine.

 

[seewhy]

JellyBaby,

I totally agree with you that guns are not the real cause of all these issues. But combining the problems of our society and easy access to guns, the problem is really being amplified. If the parents of the boys in today's high school shooting didn't own a gun, he would have much tougher time to do what he did today, I think we can all agree that there is a certain chance that what happened today MAY not happen if strick gun control is enforced. I guess I just don't understand where all you guys come from. For me, gun collection/hunting is just another habit/sport. If I have to give up like playing basketball to keep my family safer, I would do that. It has nothing to do with freedom, it is simply understanding what is dangerous and trying to stop people from doing it. You can say what we are doing to smokers are not democratic, but for the goodness of the society, we are trying to stop people from smoking. To me, gun is no different from people smoking, they not only endanger their own health, the also damage the health of people around them with second hand smoke. Kids who got shot today probably have parents who never own guns, but they are victims of parent who owns one, and is not responsible.

So to me, stricker gun control is just like having smoking only zone, no smoking policy on the plan...etc, we may not stop gun ownership right away, it is something should be done to make society safer. After all, gun control is much easier to do than trying to solve all other problems in our society, many countries in the world has done it.

 

[seewhy]

<< To the person who said that they bet 99% of home gun owners never use them for self defense. Way to go genius. You don't go out and try to shoot the kids tp'ing your house. If its for self defense you never want to use it. Its only there if you have to, sort of like the fire extinguisher. >>



Here we go again, a ten year old cannot pickup a fire extinguisher and bring it to school and bash everyone to death....there is a stastic somewhere, but I cannot tell you exactly what the number was and where it was from. But I am sure people here have seen it. There is a higher probability of mishandling/in appropriate use of fire arm by family member than actaully using it for self defense. Having a gun can cause you more damage than do you good.

But hey, that is your choice of having gun. As long as you gun owners ensure that your kids never touch your guns and you never misused in anyway and endanger the rest of us and our family, I am fine with you having guns. But that hasn't been the case, like what happened today.

 

[Jmman]

It sounds like you are a responsible gun owner, Tobeme!! I am also a responsible gun owner myself. If you look at my posts though, not once did I ever really advocate banning any form of guns. I simply pointed out that our system is broken and something needs to be done. A couple of questions though? Am I the only gun owner that is disturbed by the huge proliferation of guns in this country? Are we just going to tolerate mass killing after mass killing? Do we really want to live in a society where everybody carries a gun? Would that really make you feel safer? As a gun owner and someone trained with not only handguns, but assault rifles and fully automatic weapons, I can tell you from experience that a bullet does not differentiate between someone that is trained and a 16 year old punk with a bad attitude. There is a reason they call it the great equalizer. He could just as easily kill me as I could him. I don't have all of the answers, but I don't hear any real solutions coming from the gun lobby either. Here are some interesting facts:

&quot;More people are shot and killed in America in one week than in all of Western Europe in one year. &quot;

&quot;Americans murder each other with guns at a rate 19 times higher than any of the 25 richest nations surveyed.&quot;

&quot;There are more than 10 times as many licensed gun dealers in America than McDonald's restaurants: 142,000 to 12,000.&quot;

&quot;Almost 1 million Americans died from gun-related murders, suicides or accidents from 1933 to 1982. More than half occurred after 1960.&quot;

What other conclusion can be made from these facts other than that our system is not working, and immediate action needs to be taken?

 

[JellyBaby]

seewhy,

<< If the parents of the boys in today's high school shooting didn't own a gun, he would have much tougher time to do what he did today >>

How can you be so certain? Even if guns were completely banned in the US, can you guarantee me that he would not have acquired one off the black market from Mexico?

<< If I have to give up like playing basketball to keep my family safer, I would do that. >>

You might but what gives anybody the right to tell others they can no longer purchase or keep a firearm? The gun isn't the problem, the person using it is. Prevent him from going off, so to speak. If he does so, prosecute him. I'm so tired of a select group of miscreants tainting liberty for the rest of us.

I know you're not advocating a complete ban but once the government gets going it will not stop until guns are totally banned. And at that point, when even that totalitarian move fails to stop school violence, we will never, ever get our rights back.

 

[ToBeMe]

hey, NOT seeING why.......that may be all well and good for you......now, come on out here and help us run down and club about 200 Deer to death so they don't leave part of my family bankrupt! I'm also going to go back to another line of reason.......Want to bet which kills more kids......Guns or Alcohol.......Guns or Vehicles.......Guns or Cancer........Guns or Accidents.......Hmmmm.....bet Guns lose every time! It's NOT the guns......it's the mindset of the kids, and lack of parental judgement!

 

[ToBeMe]

Hey J......There IS adifference and YES what happened today and every time it happens is one of the most awfull things imaginable......BUT.......are there really more guns out there today, or has there been a change in our children and a lack of good judgement by the parents? I know it's been a LONG time ago......but I can remember bringing a gun to school in my Blazer while I was in High school.......it was in there nearly every day as were about 50 others at our school.....especially during Deer Hunting Season.........thing of it is, we never had a problem, and the thought never crossed my mind to do something like that! So......is it really the gun that is causing this or bad parenting &amp; kids with no sense of the value of life???????

 

[DAGTA]

I support ownership of guns. If guns are banned, then there will be an increase in crime rate as criminals are not going to think that a person may own a gun. Also, history has shown the horrible things that happen to people when their government does not allow them to own guns. The truth is that parents need to raise their children properly. It is disgusting the lack of morals and knowledge of right/wrong that I see many young (I'm 22) people possessing today. That being said, I don't own a gun and likely never will. I personally feel that the dangers of owning a gun outweigh the benefits. Earlier in this thread, someone said that people that are for banning guns are cowards. I think that the logic is severly flawed. It seems to me that it is a coward who needs a gun to feel able to confront someone. Of course, another widespread argument is that a gun is needed to protect your family. Well, I happen to have to have 7 different belts in Tae Kwon Do. I may not be a match for a bullet, but I believe I can more than hold my own in a hand to hand situation. It is easier for someone to pull a trigger and take a life than it is to do it with your own hands. I also happen to own a few swords. My point is, I think it is a right to own a gun and that right should not be taken away. However, it is overwhelmingly obvious that we need better parenting and training in this country. Guns don't kill people but they make it extremely easy for people to kill people. A martial artist has the knowledge and skill to people someone easily but part of your training is to instill into you the respect for your abilities and the understanding that you are never to use your skills for anything other than self defense.
-DAGTA

 

[seewhy]

Well, I just hope there is a middle ground...., I am sure lots of you guys are responsible gun owners and guns may be necessary to keep deers way from your farm. But seems like whenever there is a gun control debates, gun lovers just come up with all these defense and refuse to talk about any solutions. Comeon, need guns because of 2nd amendment and defense against big bad government??

If people keep and open mind and find something to work with, we can avoid some of the things happening. Again, for the Nth time, I am not saying gun is the only problem and banning gun solves everything. I am just saying it is logical that the probability of less killing is going to happen. I don't know if you guys take statistic class, probability doesn't mean it is gonna happen, it means it is likely gonna happen, and in the long run, let say a 1,000,000,000 try, it is very very likely to happen.

If doing something can reduce the probability of someone I love getting killed, I will do that. I think owning a gun while is a form of freedom, endangers other people who don't own one. Therefore violates our freedom and right to live. If we can come out with something like banning hand gun, so it is harder for kid to carry a fire arm without being noticed, while people who needs gun can still go for big bad shot guns, that is fine. Just do something for God's sake.

 

[Turkey]

I think that what some gun control opponents need to realize is that there is a pretty well established theory on crime that says that crimes are committed because the opportunity is there. It doesn't apply to all situations, though, which is what a lot of gun control advocates need to realize. Imagine the situation somewhat like theft. Imagine that a retail store employee, for some reason, takes all the cash from the registers to a bank at the end of every day, and does it alone. One day, the employee decides to take a few bucks out, *because he can.* However, if it were a different person every day, and the person had to be accompanied by a stranger, it is much less likely that the money will be stolen. It's not an absolute that it will happen, but it makes it a lot harder. The same idea can kind of be applied to guns, in that if you take away the gun, it takes away the opportunity to shoot up your school. If the person is still motivated enough, they'll carry out a crime. But, some crimes can be prevented by removing the opportunity.

Anyway, I don't think guns are the problem, but there are situations where restricting them is the solution. No one doing a drive by is going to care if you have a gun or not, so restricting is kind of moot. Fear of a homeowner having a gun might prevent a burglar from entering, so restriction would do harm. But, no kid is going to be able to get his parent's weapon and take it to school and shoot his classmates if his parents don't have a gun.

 

[Napalm381]

<< But, no kid is going to be able to get his parent's weapon and take it to school and shoot his classmates if his parents don't have a gun. >>

Correct. Unfortunately, what will happen is that the kid gets ahold of somebody else's weapon and uses it.