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rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,389
3,120
146
Lights can be useful, but not in all situations. A common scenario is waking to a noise in the living room. If you are walking down the hall with a light, the bad guy behind the sofa has plenty of warning and a great target.

Illuminate the room after you have established adequate cover.

That's why lights have on/off switches.

CZ shadow 2.

Find the hickock45 video where he shoots it and look at the expression on his face.

Uh no, no way am I recommending a DA/SA gun for this purpose.


To work the original premise backwards, practice ammo is $200/1000. I would buy 147 grain for both practice and "use." The recoil impulse is a bit milder and the heavier bullets are proven to have good results.

Winchester Ranger T or SXT in 147 grain if you're not finding T's are also good. That's another 50-60 bucks. Honestly I would probably buy 3-4 boxes if possible and fire off at least 2 boxes as practice and to test the gun. You're aiming for zero malfunctions. Don't buy any bullshit RIP rounds or whatever, use what major police services use.

Please consider some kind of quick access lock box or speed vault unless you have no chance of ever having anyone else around that could access it.

You'll probably also need to buy some lube and patches, the gun will likely come with a serviceable cleaning rod and brush. $40

After that, basically shoot or handle as many of those guns on your list as possible. I would avoid the P220/P226 due to the DA/SA trigger issue.

Think hard about including a mounted light, holding a light and a gun will destroy your accuracy. You can get a serviceable streamlight for around $100-$125.

I think about $500 of your budget is gone on ammo and basics, another $100 or so if you need a lockbox. Subtract $100ish if you don't get a light.

$600-700 will get you a good polymer striker fired pistol, but get what you shoot well. Much better to go over a bit than cheaping out and regretting it. If you get the light all your practice should be done with the light on the gun.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,836
1,489
126
That's why lights have on/off switches.

One more thing to mess with/think about in a high pressure situation...all the light will do is give the bad guy a nice bright target to shoot at (since it is dark and there is an intruder in your home, you should assume the worst - and hope you live in a state with a Castle law)...if you had any element of surprise, that would be out the window as well. But you better be sure when you pull the trigger...
 

MrBailey

Member
Dec 1, 2005
106
70
101
Whoah! Hold up a little, fellas. Let's help Sphinx get a firearm in his hands before we worry about room clearing techniques.

Sphinx, maybe make a list of what you would like or not like in a handgun.

Do you want a DA/SA hammer fired? Do you want a DA striker fired only? You you want a safety or safety/decocker? Do you want a single or double stack? Ambidextrous? Stuff like that.

I would again suggest heading to your local shop, or a Bass Pro/Cabella, etc. and put some hands on. You might hear/read great things about a particular gun, but when it's in your hands you may just not like it. Bad feel to your grip, trigger doesn't feel right, it looks funny, whatever.

I would then review the heck out of it. Lot's of good videos out there by reputable peeps. I tend to ignore or stay away from the guys who just collect and have no real experience. Some I recommend are Hickok45 (as mentioned above), Warrior Poet, and Garrand Thumb. There are many more.

I prefer to listen to someone who's put more than 50 rounds through the firearm.

Above all, when you finally decide and slap down the money...practice, practice, practice.

Practice doesn't necessarily refer to live fire.
- practice safety above all else
- practice your stance
- practice dry fire (snap cap, laser round, air soft pistol, SIRT pistols, etc) for trigger control. [Yes, some of those things are pricey and don't offer recoil experience...but it's the repetition and working on correct techniques that matter and learning you gun (i.e. reset, trigger feel, etc.)]
- practice holding and dry firing both hands, strong hand, off hand
- if it has a safety or safety/decocker, get to know it
- if an every day carry (EDC) and you get a decent holster, practice drawing (no live rounds, please!)
- practice all those and more for the muscle memory

Dry fire practice is important for many reasons, but it's good to do before heading to a range, maybe at the range before live fire, or maybe even in the middle of a session if your shots are off.

I'm not dismissing anyone's responses above. They all have their merit. But learn to properly handle your firearm before you worry about clearing the living room.

Parting shots:
- If you get a holster, don't cheap out. A bad holster can be dangerous. That can be a whole other discussion.
- Don't pimp out your gun if you don't have to. You probably don't need a customer trigger or a lighter pull weight. You don't need a Punisher stamped slide or a "I shoot first" marking on the frame. Those can actually work against you in a courtroom if a situation occurs that you fire at someone. That also is another discussion.

Cheers.
 
Reactions: spacejamz

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
I prefer to listen to someone who's put more than 50 rounds through the firearm.

You probably have exposed the elephant in the room.

If one wants to become a good shooter and be able to make the shot when it counts, the firearm itself has very little to do with it. How many people talk about the basketball Stef Curry is shooting?

This forum has very little interest in developing proficiency with a firearm. It's a great place to show off your new toy.
 
Reactions: MrBailey

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,537
5,945
136
You probably have exposed the elephant in the room.

If one wants to become a good shooter and be able to make the shot when it counts, the firearm itself has very little to do with it. How many people talk about the basketball Stef Curry is shooting?

This forum has very little interest in developing proficiency with a firearm. It's a great place to show off your new toy.
"Be wary of a man that only has one gun. He probably knows how to use it."

 

FerrelGeek

Diamond Member
Jan 22, 2009
4,670
271
126
My son bought the S&W M&P 2.0 in 9mm. It's a sweet gun and shoots very well. It comes with a set of backstraps to adjust for hand size. Cost wise, it's on par with a Glock.

I agree with others who stress renting before buying. See if you can rent the S&W. Good luck.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
You probably have exposed the elephant in the room.

If one wants to become a good shooter and be able to make the shot when it counts, the firearm itself has very little to do with it. How many people talk about the basketball Stef Curry is shooting?

This forum has very little interest in developing proficiency with a firearm. It's a great place to show off your new toy.

Tell me, how does one develop proficiency with a firearm over a web forum?

Personally, I’ve never shot anyone. I can however consistently put a few shots into a 3” group at 15 yards. That is generally the distance I practice shooting at the range anyway.

I find it easier to shoot some of the guns I own more accurately than others, I would keep the gun I’m most comfortable and accurate with and have trained the most with for self defense. The others go in the gun safe. Not all the guns I own are for self defense, some I just enjoy shooting.
 

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
Tell me, how does one develop proficiency with a firearm over a web forum?

I seriously doubt that one could obtain a high level of proficiency at anything simply by sitting on his butt browsing the web.

No matter the type of shooting you are interested in, it requires lots of it, no way around it. Finding a good instructor is huge.

Cyclists glean the web for bits of information that will help them ride faster, but they have to put in the miles.

There is nothing wrong with being a gun collector or having no interest in personal protection. The thread had just drifted that way for a bit.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
I seriously doubt that one could obtain a high level of proficiency at anything simply by sitting on his butt browsing the web.

No matter the type of shooting you are interested in, it requires lots of it, no way around it. Finding a good instructor is huge.

Cyclists glean the web for bits of information that will help them ride faster, but they have to put in the miles.

There is nothing wrong with being a gun collector or having no interest in personal protection. The thread had just drifted that way for a bit.

Cyclists are worse than gun collectors when it comes to the hardware. There are a lot of guys who are really into the equipment and counting grams in that sport.

I’ve owned guns for almost thirty years and never had a need to actually use one for personal defense or even brandish one. Plus, I can’t legally carry a gun for personal protection in the state I live in so what type of gun owner does that make me? The casual shooter? A collector? None of these things means that I have no interest in personal protection. I have no interest in concealed carry, that is for sure.

Practice is key for sure, I agree with you on that. I don’t always get it right when it comes to trigger discipline, especially when shooting different guns back to back. Some guns are definitely easier to shoot well than others, which is why I almost always take my main home defense gun to the range to practice with.

Honestly, the easiest gun to shoot accurately is my Ruger Mark IV, but it isn’t really suitable for home defense.
 

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
There are just so many types of shooting and ways to enjoy firearms. All but a few are positive endeavors.

The problem I see is that too many folks believe that punching some holes in a target equates to self defense training. Bull's eye shooting is a very different skill set than IDPA.

Practicing free throws out in your driveway is probably a great activity, but if that is all you do, when the guys from the hood show up for a little three on three, you are going to get smoked.

When it hits the fan it will happen fast. Muscle memory needs to be there and being comfortable firing multiple rounds in quick succession while moving backwards is really helpful.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
There are just so many types of shooting and ways to enjoy firearms. All but a few are positive endeavors.

The problem I see is that too many folks believe that punching some holes in a target equates to self defense training. Bull's eye shooting is a very different skill set than IDPA.

Practicing free throws out in your driveway is probably a great activity, but if that is all you do, when the guys from the hood show up for a little three on three, you are going to get smoked.

When it hits the fan it will happen fast. Muscle memory needs to be there and being comfortable firing multiple rounds in quick succession while moving backwards is really helpful.

And the thread drifts on...
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
The problem I see is that too many folks believe that punching some holes in a target equates to self defense training. Bull's eye shooting is a very different skill set than IDPA.

Why is this a problem? Ultimately, if I ever need to use a firearm in self defense it will most likely be in my own home. If I get killed as a result of my inability to defend myself then so be it.

I’m not going to spend all my free time and money training for something that I’ll probably never need to do.

How much training is enough in your expert opinion? If I go to the range 8-9 times a year is that enough? Should I go more often? Honestly, I’m probably more likely to die of lead poisoning than from getting into an armed confrontation with someone.
 

MrBailey

Member
Dec 1, 2005
106
70
101
Hey, Jules. You're okay. There's nothing wrong with how you see yourself as a gun owner.

Don't change to meet our view points.

I think some of us, including (or at least) myself, are just trying to point out that:

If a gun owner is depending on a firearm for home defense, they have to do more than just go to the range and fire 50 rounds, once or twice a year.

I'm no expert and no instructor. I'm ex-military and I have owned for about 30 years. I lived in CT for a long time and rarely trained. Guns are evil in that state. Now I live in AL and thoroughly enjoy training (and playing).

I do a lot of research...and then I try hands on. Dry fire, target shooting, various rapid fire drills, etc. I put a couple thousand rounds down range this year (edit: I mean last year: 2018)...and not just pulling the trigger as fast as possible. Actually, I've never done that. I just like to shoot.

But that's just me. You be you and enjoy your firearms as you see fit.
 

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
Why is this a problem? Ultimately, if I ever need to use a firearm in self defense it will most likely be in my own home. If I get killed as a result of my inability to defend myself then so be it.

I’m not going to spend all my free time and money training for something that I’ll probably never need to do.

How much training is enough in your expert opinion? If I go to the range 8-9 times a year is that enough? Should I go more often? Honestly, I’m probably more likely to die of lead poisoning than from getting into an armed confrontation with someone.

No problem here. You seem to have no misconceptions. My apologies if you believe I was implying that you personally had any kind of problem.

One of the things that is drilled into you from a self defense aspect is avoidance. Stay out, or get out of situations that would lead to you drawing your weapon. Never needing to do so is a big win.

This skill set, that we all hope we will never have to use, will be the most important skill you have, if you are forced into that situation.

How much training is enough? That is a personal decision. If you joined a basketball league and played every week for a season, you would have a pretty good feel for your skill level at the end. The key thing is you are not just shooting free throws in your driveway, be it a few times a year or every night.

A logical progression seems to be obtaining your CHL, some personal instruction, joining IDPA. Ammo is expensive, but it is type of shooting can be an absolute blast.

My first class had only two students. The other guy asked me why I was there. Just gave him some stock answer and asked him the same. He just lifted up his shirt to expose two bullet holes in his gut. He walked in on two guys robbing his home. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.
 
Reactions: MrBailey

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
Haha, you guys misunderstood me. I was just trying to point out that you shouldn’t make generalizations about other people just from a few off-hand comments on a web forum.

Maybe I should have just said that.
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
No problem here. You seem to have no misconceptions. My apologies if you believe I was implying that you personally had any kind of problem.

One of the things that is drilled into you from a self defense aspect is avoidance. Stay out, or get out of situations that would lead to you drawing your weapon. Never needing to do so is a big win.

This skill set, that we all hope we will never have to use, will be the most important skill you have, if you are forced into that situation.

How much training is enough? That is a personal decision. If you joined a basketball league and played every week for a season, you would have a pretty good feel for your skill level at the end. The key thing is you are not just shooting free throws in your driveway, be it a few times a year or every night.

A logical progression seems to be obtaining your CHL, some personal instruction, joining IDPA. Ammo is expensive, but it is type of shooting can be an absolute blast.

My first class had only two students. The other guy asked me why I was there. Just gave him some stock answer and asked him the same. He just lifted up his shirt to expose two bullet holes in his gut. He walked in on two guys robbing his home. Hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Totally agree with you on this.

Btw-I suck at basketball.
 

NesuD

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
4,999
106
106
Tell me, how does one develop proficiency with a firearm over a web forum?

Dry firing while you post. Trigger discipline is essential to firearm proficiency. Muscle memory is the name of the game. That's how the old timers could rapid fire quarter sized groups with a .45 at 50 ft shooting one handed. Practice practice practice.
 

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,389
3,120
146
One more thing to mess with/think about in a high pressure situation...all the light will do is give the bad guy a nice bright target to shoot at (since it is dark and there is an intruder in your home, you should assume the worst - and hope you live in a state with a Castle law)...if you had any element of surprise, that would be out the window as well. But you better be sure when you pull the trigger...

I guess all the ERT teams and military units that do this kind of shit for real must not have your advanced training.

Can’t shoot at a target you can’t identify. You shouldn’t be trying to conduct an ambush in your house anyways, I am challenging them and going from there. If they run away, great. If they don’t I will then start to make assumptions and be ready to shoot. This “element of surprise” talk has always bugged me... in what scenario is it going down like that? The predatory home invasion robbery is the rarest type of burglary. If they come knowing you’re there and to neutralize you it’s going to be decided in seconds, and perhaps if you somehow recognize what’s going on that quick you might be able to ambush them. What’s for more likely is you heard some shit going on and you grabbed your gun to go check it out.

I guess if you live in a full castle law state and really want to kill some thieves whether you need to or not you can ignore my opinion and go back to shooting dimly lit intruders on first contact.
 

gill77

Senior member
Aug 3, 2006
813
250
136
Dry firing is really helpful. You can practice daily at no cost and no travel time to the range.

It will develop muscle memory, it just needs to be the right practice. If you are jerking the trigger, you want to correct that before you ingrain it.

Trigger technique differs by type of shooting. For self defense shooting, if your double taps are fast and accurate, there is likely no problem with your trigger action.
 

spacejamz

Lifer
Mar 31, 2003
10,836
1,489
126
I guess all the ERT teams and military units that do this kind of shit for real must not have your advanced training.

Pretty sure those ERT/military teams would use night vision goggles in dark rooms and not flash lights.....
 
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