Originally posted by: Phokus
Have you seen parents at their kid's sporting events? For some reason, half of them think their kid is going to be a superstar and they go nuts (and sometimes violent) at the refs and other parents when things don't go their way.
This lady didn't seem like the sane type to begin with.
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
No, but I have proof it's perfectly legal to do so, and enough people who think it is ok to know that claims of 'most' are either false, or doomed to the 51% tyranny of the majority flaw.
so no.
as has been covered in the thread repeated, you can be 100% legally right and a 100% jackass. The dead lady is a perfect example.
to use another analogy, you have the freedom of speech, but you should yell bomb on an airplane or fire in a crowded theatre.
Actually having thought more about it, yes I do. If enough people were actually against it there would probably be a law against it. However there are no laws against it. This is not perfect of course, since lawmaking is more than simply a majority rules situation. However it does support that either it isn't a significant problem, or not enough people have a major problem with it.
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Phokus
Have you seen parents at their kid's sporting events? For some reason, half of them think their kid is going to be a superstar and they go nuts (and sometimes violent) at the refs and other parents when things don't go their way.
This lady didn't seem like the sane type to begin with.
A prediction: Following this woman's example, carrying guns to children's sporting events will become more and more commonplace. Then one day, a melee at a game will develop. One of the gun-carriers, confronted by an irate, threatening parent, will fire in "self defense," and someone will die.
THAT will be the end of guns at children's events.
game theory is a model of modeling decision making in economics, and has many real world applications in finance and politics. Not sure what world you're living in.Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Sclamoz
I sometimes think that people are scared of seeing guns on people in situations like this because the person carrying them might be a maniac capable of murder, you know?
Well I still say if they feel that way that is their own irrational fear. A fear born mostly out of not being around firearms or knowing the rules of safety. A person legally carrying generally cherishes that right and has no motivation whatsoever to have it taken away (like committing a crime).
I will tend to stay close to somebody carrying if I'm not (I rarely do) and make friends with them. I still think it boils down to an irrational fear of firearms.
when a normal person sees someone walking around with a gun they (rightfully) expect the worst.
Proof/support? Threshold of 'normal'? Proof of 'rightfully'?
None. Since statistically they should NOT have an expectation of 'the worst' your statement is flawed.
really?
lets ignore the facts and evidence for now, and use a little game theory here.
now someone shows up with a gun you can either be concerned, or not be concerned, and the person can either be peaceful or not.
in the instance where you are concerned, the gunman is either peaceful, in which case you are fine, or not peaceful, in which case you are clearly better off being concerned.
In the case where you are not concerned, the gunman is either peaceful, in which case you are fine (equal result) or not peaceful, in which case you are worse off.
clearly the optimal strategy is to be concerned.
considering the sorts of attitudes many parent bring to their children's sport events (unbridled rage) and our nations foundness for gun violence, they should statistically be concerned as well, they should be vigilant, especially since the price of not being vigilant is potentially death.
finally, judging by the communities response, bringing a gun to a childrens sporting event is not consistent with the expectations of the community.
Game theory is a philosophical/psychological exercise with no real world direct application, but ok, I'll bite this one time.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
when a normal person sees someone walking around with a gun they (rightfully) expect the worst.
Bullshit. By "normal person" you mean somebody that is scared at the sight of a firearm. Does a "normal person" walking around in uniform scare people?
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: NeoV
more completely irrelevant spew from spidey
you don't think the site of a woman, not in a police uniform - sporting a gun on her hip might cause some reactions AT A CHILDREN'S SOCCER GAME?
do you think - I don't know, I'm going out on a limb here - do you think it's possible it might - just might - alert or even scare a child or two? Is that really out of the realm of possible outcomes for you? Is that not, gasp - a possible normal reaction?
That's the parent's fault for the irrational fear of a gun.
Originally posted by: Nebor
I have no problem with the open carrying of arms. Just like with gay rights, the agenda of the gun nuts is to get in people's faces, and get them used to seeing it on the streets, on tv, etc. I'm not a fan of open carrying in everyday city life, because the disadvantages of open carry are too great compared to concealed carry. But I've been to open carry BBQs where everyone carried openly and had a great time.
I would say that open carry isn't a good idea in most cases, but certainly shouldn't be illegal. Most anti-gun people prefer that people carry their guns openly so they "know who to avoid."
we already know that certainly (a) probably and (b) apply to spidey, hopefully (c) since that seems a bit redeeming in the context of the other two optionsOriginally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: NeoV
you don't think the site of a woman, not in a police uniform - sporting a gun on her hip might cause some reactions AT A CHILDREN'S SOCCER GAME?
do you think - I don't know, I'm going out on a limb here - do you think it's possible it might - just might - alert or even scare a child or two? Is that really out of the realm of possible outcomes for you? Is that not, gasp - a possible normal reaction?
That's the parent's fault for the irrational fear of a gun.
It's not the "irrational fear of a gun." It's the very rational fear of (1) a non-law-enforcement, non-military individual whose psychological state and intentions we don't know (2) carrying a deadly weapon (3) at a venue for children (4) where no one has ever seen a gun-carrying private citizen before.
If you cannot acknowledge that it is entirely rational to feel fear under these circumstances, then you are either (a) a sociopath, (b) amazingly stupid, (c) lying, or (d) some combination of the foregoing.
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: NeoV
you don't think the site of a woman, not in a police uniform - sporting a gun on her hip might cause some reactions AT A CHILDREN'S SOCCER GAME?
do you think - I don't know, I'm going out on a limb here - do you think it's possible it might - just might - alert or even scare a child or two? Is that really out of the realm of possible outcomes for you? Is that not, gasp - a possible normal reaction?
That's the parent's fault for the irrational fear of a gun.
It's not the "irrational fear of a gun." It's the very rational fear of (1) a non-law-enforcement, non-military individual whose psychological state and intentions we don't know (2) carrying a deadly weapon (3) at a venue for children (4) where no one has ever seen a gun-carrying private citizen before.
If you cannot acknowledge that it is entirely rational to feel fear under these circumstances, then you are either (a) a sociopath, (b) amazingly stupid, (c) lying, or (d) some combination of the foregoing.
And again, that is simply an irrational fear that has no basis in rational thought. Why are you so scared of seeing guns in the possession of "non law enforcement"? How often do you see somebody carrying? I guess not much because I'm pretty used to it and don't have some kind of irrational fear of seeing a weapon.
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
because normally when someone brings a gun to a soccer game, or similar even, they aren't there for peaceful means. This is reality, and they are certainly not being irrational.
Let me revise that for youOriginally posted by: amddude
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: amddude
Originally posted by: NeoV
jesus christ princeofwands...
someone suggests, that maybe, just maybe - showing up at a soccer game played by children with a gun holstered on your hip - CC permit or no - is perhaps just a bit inappropriate, and you leap to
"And I say you don't have a single fact to support that statement, and so you are advocating the overthrow of liberty and feedom, as well as completely ignoring Constitutional and statutory rule, for an emotional and ignorant outburst. "
that's a stretch, even for you.
There are so many people that have a mental block when it comes to the 'I believe in gun rights but it's absurd to carry a gun <insert place here>'. Violence happens everywhere. Some say guns don't belong in churches. People get robbed in churches. Why would a soccer game be sacred? Nutjobs and criminals are everywhere. Remove head from sand.
So why does it need to sit in a holster on her hip? Sure, it might be legal, but why not just hide the thing and use it if necessary?
If you were a criminal looking for victims or some kind of crazy, do you:
A) mess with people on the soccer field with the lady who has the gun
B) find trouble elsewhere
Seems obvious?
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
because normally when someone brings a gun to a soccer game, or similar even, they aren't there for peaceful means. This is reality, and they are certainly not being irrational.
I just can't see that kind of mentality to where that's what you truly believe. It's completely irrational and not based in reality. It makes no sense whatsoever. This is what I was talking about regarding irrational fear - it's a fear not based in reality, but self induced fear.
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
because normally when someone brings a gun to a soccer game, or similar even, they aren't there for peaceful means. This is reality, and they are certainly not being irrational.
I just can't see that kind of mentality to where that's what you truly believe. It's completely irrational and not based in reality. It makes no sense whatsoever. This is what I was talking about regarding irrational fear - it's a fear not based in reality, but self induced fear.
How is it irrational? When people bring guns to places like this, they do it to shoot people. What is there that you don't understand here?
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
because normally when someone brings a gun to a soccer game, or similar even, they aren't there for peaceful means. This is reality, and they are certainly not being irrational.
I just can't see that kind of mentality to where that's what you truly believe. It's completely irrational and not based in reality. It makes no sense whatsoever. This is what I was talking about regarding irrational fear - it's a fear not based in reality, but self induced fear.
How is it irrational? When people bring guns to places like this, they do it to shoot people. What is there that you don't understand here?
Guns are brought to events like this everyday all across the country they're just concealed. But according to you they are only brought to shoot everybody, but that doesn't happen at all. I can just about guarantee if you go to some kids baseball game somebody is carrying concealed, depending on the state of course.
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: miketheidiot
because normally when someone brings a gun to a soccer game, or similar even, they aren't there for peaceful means. This is reality, and they are certainly not being irrational.
I just can't see that kind of mentality to where that's what you truly believe. It's completely irrational and not based in reality. It makes no sense whatsoever. This is what I was talking about regarding irrational fear - it's a fear not based in reality, but self induced fear.
How is it irrational? When people bring guns to places like this, they do it to shoot people. What is there that you don't understand here?
I vote for (d) all of the above. I'm no anti-gun liberal by any means, but if that asshat showed up at my kid's soccer game with a loaded weapon, I guarantee I wouldn't be the first person calling 911.Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: NeoV
you don't think the site of a woman, not in a police uniform - sporting a gun on her hip might cause some reactions AT A CHILDREN'S SOCCER GAME?
do you think - I don't know, I'm going out on a limb here - do you think it's possible it might - just might - alert or even scare a child or two? Is that really out of the realm of possible outcomes for you? Is that not, gasp - a possible normal reaction?
That's the parent's fault for the irrational fear of a gun.
It's not the "irrational fear of a gun." It's the very rational fear of (1) a non-law-enforcement, non-military individual whose psychological state and intentions we don't know (2) carrying a deadly weapon (3) at a venue for children (4) where no one has ever seen a gun-carrying private citizen before.
If you cannot acknowledge that it is entirely rational to feel fear under these circumstances, then you are either (a) a sociopath, (b) amazingly stupid, (c) lying, or (d) some combination of the foregoing.
Originally posted by: DealMonkey
I vote for (d) all of the above. I'm no anti-gun liberal by any means, but if that asshat showed up at my kid's soccer game with a loaded weapon, I guarantee I wouldn't be the first person calling 911.Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: NeoV
you don't think the site of a woman, not in a police uniform - sporting a gun on her hip might cause some reactions AT A CHILDREN'S SOCCER GAME?
do you think - I don't know, I'm going out on a limb here - do you think it's possible it might - just might - alert or even scare a child or two? Is that really out of the realm of possible outcomes for you? Is that not, gasp - a possible normal reaction?
That's the parent's fault for the irrational fear of a gun.
It's not the "irrational fear of a gun." It's the very rational fear of (1) a non-law-enforcement, non-military individual whose psychological state and intentions we don't know (2) carrying a deadly weapon (3) at a venue for children (4) where no one has ever seen a gun-carrying private citizen before.
If you cannot acknowledge that it is entirely rational to feel fear under these circumstances, then you are either (a) a sociopath, (b) amazingly stupid, (c) lying, or (d) some combination of the foregoing.
Originally posted by: Deeko
I haven't read much of the thread. I seem to recall the sheriff took away her CCP initially because it was deemed she wasn't mentally fit for it, or something like that?
Looks like he was right?
The CC advocates always justify their position with the omnipresent criminal looking for an opportunity to victimize the innocent.Originally posted by: jonks
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: Phokus
Have you seen parents at their kid's sporting events? For some reason, half of them think their kid is going to be a superstar and they go nuts (and sometimes violent) at the refs and other parents when things don't go their way.
This lady didn't seem like the sane type to begin with.
A prediction: Following this woman's example, carrying guns to children's sporting events will become more and more commonplace. Then one day, a melee at a game will develop. One of the gun-carriers, confronted by an irate, threatening parent, will fire in "self defense," and someone will die.
THAT will be the end of guns at children's events.
I'm not sure I get this argument though I hear it a lot. I'm no one's gun nut, but the point of CC is to protect yourself at all times right? You want safety walking to and from your car from would-be criminals. You want to be armed at the game in case some escaped felon who stole a prison guard's gun somehow runs across the field and starts shooting kids playing soccer. You want to be armed to take that guy down. So unless you plan on being innebriated or otherwise judgmentally impaired, I don't see how one can be in favor of CC, but opposed to carrying based upon the place attended. The whole point is having a gun when you need it but didn't plan on needing it. So either we trust CC holders to control their emotions, or we don't. Frankly, I don't, and I weigh the event of an escaped felon killing your kid at a soccer game as even more unlikely than the similarly unlikely event of a parent going skitzo and shooting the ref over a bad call. It's my preference. Course the opposite preference has some 2nd amendment protections implicated so it can get a mite muddy.
Originally posted by: inspire
Originally posted by: StinkyPinky
You actually think it's a good idea to not only bring a gun to a kids soccer game, but to also have it visible?
In lots of cases, I would say so - only because many states don't allow CCW. If CCW were legal in all 50 states, I'd be happy to say - if you're going to carry to these types of events, then keep it covered.
Originally posted by: shira
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: NeoV
you don't think the site of a woman, not in a police uniform - sporting a gun on her hip might cause some reactions AT A CHILDREN'S SOCCER GAME?
do you think - I don't know, I'm going out on a limb here - do you think it's possible it might - just might - alert or even scare a child or two? Is that really out of the realm of possible outcomes for you? Is that not, gasp - a possible normal reaction?
That's the parent's fault for the irrational fear of a gun.
It's not the "irrational fear of a gun." It's the very rational fear of (1) a non-law-enforcement, non-military individual whose psychological state and intentions we don't know (2) carrying a deadly weapon (3) at a venue for children (4) where no one has ever seen a gun-carrying private citizen before.
If you cannot acknowledge that it is entirely rational to feel fear under these circumstances, then you are either (a) a sociopath, (b) amazingly stupid, (c) lying, or (d) some combination of the foregoing.