guy at school's esophagus was torn away from his stomach

[OS]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Contraception should be used in all necessary situations, and in extreme situations abortion should be used. Although, I do not believe in abortion, it is preferable it to a lifetime of suffering.

Kind of like how your mom should have used a coathanger huh?

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Simple answer: nope. I used an example to show a point which was given at the end of the post: Ethics dictate how to live one's life, in extreme and even non-extreme situations. The same rules apply to anyone on the spectrum, where they land on the spectrum is only relevent in the sense that the punishment for violation of the laws of ethics varies accordingly.

It is not unethical to have children without being able to afford health insurance.

If you believe that it is, that is a product of your upbringing, and it is your opinion. An opinion that 95% of everybody on this message board would not agree with, even given the generally immature(as in age) populace here.

I don't care what the opinion of 95% of everybody on this message board is. Unlike many others, I do not base my opinion or even have my opinions influenced by the opinions of others. I have been known to have my opinions influenced by sound evidence and argumentation, however. Yet, here I have not seen any.

I wasn't saying that you should base your opinion off others'. I was saying that your opinion is not the popular one. I was also reiterating the fact that it is your opinion, a product of your upbringing. Nothing more.

There is nothing wrong with waiting to have children until you can provide for them, and kudos to those who do wait. I am simply telling you that your view of the world is unrealistic and very, very discriminatory towards those that you consider a lower class than yourself.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Dissipate
Contraception should be used in all necessary situations, and in extreme situations abortion should be used. Although, I do not believe in abortion, it is preferable it to a lifetime of suffering.

A lifetime of suffering? Where the hell do you come up with this crap?

So you believe that everybody born poor is destined for a life of suffering?! Where in the HELL have you grown up?

You are taking my statements out of context again. I said in extreme situations abortion should be used. If this statement in any way even implies that I meant that everybody born poor is destined for a life of suffering, please tell me, because I myself, the writer of the statement do not understand the connection.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Simple answer: nope. I used an example to show a point which was given at the end of the post: Ethics dictate how to live one's life, in extreme and even non-extreme situations. The same rules apply to anyone on the spectrum, where they land on the spectrum is only relevent in the sense that the punishment for violation of the laws of ethics varies accordingly.

It is not unethical to have children without being able to afford health insurance.

If you believe that it is, that is a product of your upbringing, and it is your opinion. An opinion that 95% of everybody on this message board would not agree with, even given the generally immature(as in age) populace here.

I don't care what the opinion of 95% of everybody on this message board is. Unlike many others, I do not base my opinion or even have my opinions influenced by the opinions of others. I have been known to have my opinions influenced by sound evidence and argumentation, however. Yet, here I have not seen any.

I wasn't saying that you should base your opinion off others'. I was saying that your opinion is not the popular one. I was also reiterating the fact that it is your opinion, a product of your upbringing. Nothing more.

There is nothing wrong with waiting to have children until you can provide for them, and kudos to those who do wait. I am simply telling you that your view of the world is unrealistic and very, very discriminatory towards those that you consider a lower class than yourself.

Now you are making assumptions. My opinions are not a product of my upbringing. In fact my father disagrees with me on this issue. But now you are getting away from the issue again.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Simple answer: nope. I used an example to show a point which was given at the end of the post: Ethics dictate how to live one's life, in extreme and even non-extreme situations. The same rules apply to anyone on the spectrum, where they land on the spectrum is only relevent in the sense that the punishment for violation of the laws of ethics varies accordingly.

It is not unethical to have children without being able to afford health insurance.

If you believe that it is, that is a product of your upbringing, and it is your opinion. An opinion that 95% of everybody on this message board would not agree with, even given the generally immature(as in age) populace here.

I don't care what the opinion of 95% of everybody on this message board is. Unlike many others, I do not base my opinion or even have my opinions influenced by the opinions of others. I have been known to have my opinions influenced by sound evidence and argumentation, however. Yet, here I have not seen any.

I wasn't saying that you should base your opinion off others'. I was saying that your opinion is not the popular one. I was also reiterating the fact that it is your opinion, a product of your upbringing. Nothing more.

There is nothing wrong with waiting to have children until you can provide for them, and kudos to those who do wait. I am simply telling you that your view of the world is unrealistic and very, very discriminatory towards those that you consider a lower class than yourself.

Now you are making assumptions. My opinions are not a product of my upbringing. In fact my father disagrees with me on this issue. But now you are getting away from the issue again.

You are a product of your upbringing. That is the point I was trying to make.

You believe that all middle-lower class people, anybody that cannot afford health insurance, should not have children, and I am telling you that is wrong. You do realize that there are far more poor people in America than rich, right?

You're telling me that it is unethical to have children unless you can provide for them, but your definition of "provide" is quite different from mine, and every other lower-middleclassman out there.

Health insurance is a luxury. That is a fact. It is a luxury because not everybody can afford it. It is a luxury just like a cell phone. It is a luxury just like broadband. It is a luxury just like a Mercedes. It is a luxury specifically because it is not mandatory.

If you really are as smart as you think you are, I am sincere when I say that you cannot truely believe that pushing your extremely discriminatory views on others is OK.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Eli

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Simple answer: nope. I used an example to show a point which was given at the end of the post: Ethics dictate how to live one's life, in extreme and even non-extreme situations. The same rules apply to anyone on the spectrum, where they land on the spectrum is only relevent in the sense that the punishment for violation of the laws of ethics varies accordingly.

It is not unethical to have children without being able to afford health insurance.

If you believe that it is, that is a product of your upbringing, and it is your opinion. An opinion that 95% of everybody on this message board would not agree with, even given the generally immature(as in age) populace here.

I don't care what the opinion of 95% of everybody on this message board is. Unlike many others, I do not base my opinion or even have my opinions influenced by the opinions of others. I have been known to have my opinions influenced by sound evidence and argumentation, however. Yet, here I have not seen any.

I wasn't saying that you should base your opinion off others'. I was saying that your opinion is not the popular one. I was also reiterating the fact that it is your opinion, a product of your upbringing. Nothing more.

There is nothing wrong with waiting to have children until you can provide for them, and kudos to those who do wait. I am simply telling you that your view of the world is unrealistic and very, very discriminatory towards those that you consider a lower class than yourself.

Now you are making assumptions. My opinions are not a product of my upbringing. In fact my father disagrees with me on this issue. But now you are getting away from the issue again.

You are a product of your upbringing. That is the point I was trying to make.

You believe that all middle-lower class people, anybody that cannot afford health insurance, should not have children, and I am telling you that is wrong. You do realize that there are far more poor people in America than rich, right?

You're telling me that it is unethical to have children unless you can provide for them, but your definition of "provide" is quite different from mine, and every other lower-middleclassman out there.

Health insurance is a luxury. That is a fact. It is a luxury because not everybody can afford it. It is a luxury just like a cell phone. It is a luxury just like broadband. It is a luxury just like a Mercedes. It is a luxury specifically because it is not mandatory.

If you really are as smart as you think you are, I am sincere when I say that you cannot truely believe that pushing your extremely discriminatory views on others is OK.

Once again, however, being poor does not preclude someone from being ethical, which in this case entails proper family planning. This is not a rich/poor issue, there are many rich people who shouldn't have children either simply because they cannot offer those children enough attention that is required for a proper upbringing.

Health insurance is as much of a luxury as food, it isn't. It is a necessity for the standard of living that is considered humane by today's standards, especially in the U.S. Whether or not something is mandatory by law is irrelevant, laws are a subset of ethics. There are many unethical things I could do which are perfectly lawful.

How am I pushing my views on anyone? I'm merely expressing my views. You contiuously attempt to paint me as some "evil" person, but this will not work. Only sound arguments can reverse my beliefs, of which none have been provided thus far.

 

[NeoPTLD]

Originally posted by: brigden
I love living in Canada. Free healthcare.

In Canadada money grows on trees. No?

 

[Zebo]

Dissapte- How about people like your conservative friend Onrey, had job, skills and family but the company simply up and moves overseas or to another state...lays off folks. Even he saw the value in 8mo unemployment and I imagine subisded HEalth.


My point is things change.

When theres not enough jobs for the people here or they pay too little or a man/woman simply does'nt have the skills or ability to make enough to fork over an insane $1600 a month for health insurance after paying all his and his families expenses who to do with him? As I said earlier people like you never address issues like how to keep the jobs here, how to insure our workers don't become a peasant class to corportate elite, how to insure people have a living wage (this means being able to afford heatlh insurance and a modest roof over you head). In fact you guys hate all things which try do insure this for people..unions, minimum wage, tarriffs etc. It's simply cut and dry for you'all some make it some don't. probelm is with these conservative policies last 25 years less and less people are making it. It's natual law that wealth concentrates itself amoung few individuals without any controls. It's also natural for companies to raise thier prices given government protection against competitors.

I think the worst part is we pay more per capita for health care than any first world country who all insure everyone, we only insure about 3/5 of our population and heath care here sucks. I have to best PPO there is, a 90-10 plan with no referral needed, and still had trouble getting my wife an MRI who has had vertigo and constant headaches. When we go to the doctor the waitng time is ludicris and overpriced 2-3 visists later.

 

[loic2003]

he must have eaten something really heavy for that to happen...

 

[glaHHg]

Dissipate:

There is a force more powerful than ethics: the desire to procreate. That's why we are all here, and that's why there are more of us than ever before. Should your great^200 grandfather, who lived in a cave and whose previous 4 children were all torn limb from limb and eaten by wolves, have decided not to have any more children because the world was too terrible a place? He chose to have more children because there was nothing he wanted more than to have a family. Was he wrong? The point is that the choice was his to make. Some people are in bad situations because of lack of planning or irresponsibility, yes. Some people are in bad situations by freak random chance. And sometimes people are still in the financial gutter despite doing everything logical and everything right, every time. Are these people banned from ever having a family of their own?

You oversimplify the reasons people may find themselves in desperate situations. And you oversimplify the ease with which they can get themselves out.

So, like most people have been saying, in an ideal, utopian world, you are correct. In the real world, which is infinitely more complicated than you imply, it just doesn't work that way.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: PingSpike
Remember, the United States has the best health care system in the world and all others pale in comparison. Unless you're poor, then you're welcome to die on the street like everyone else in a third world country.

Bullsh!t. Please provide evidence of people dying on the streets because they lack the ability to pay for health care.

You cannot, because it isn't happening. Hospitals cannot turn people away who are in need of emergency care. Medicare, medicade and private charities all exist to help people with chronic illnesses.

In fact, even BEFORE medicare and medicade, private charities more than filled the gap in providing medical care for the poor.

No one is "dying in the steets" unless they choose to by refusing the help that IS available.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: PingSpike
Remember, the United States has the best health care system in the world and all others pale in comparison. Unless you're poor, then you're welcome to die on the street like everyone else in a third world country.

It is indeed pretty sad that Havana has lower infant mortality rates than Washington D.C.

More Bullsh!t.

It simply amazes me that people blindly believe false statistics pumped out by a corrupt communist dictator that controls all news coming in, and going out of his country.

The man shoots people for trying to leave, yet you believe he provides better health care than the US. :roll:

 

[Mill]

Dissipate, shut the fvck up already. You're posts are more full of fallacies than any individual I've ever met. Stop trolling this thread and slink back over to P&N. Troll.

 

[PingSpike]

Dissapate:

Perhaps we should sterilize all poor people, that should prevent this problem. Then when they get sick and can't afford health care, the poor people will all die and we'll all be rich again! Yay! Natural selection should be able to solve the problem of these dirty huddled masses, such as myself, who are only a leech on the glorious system.

Do you have any idea how much health care costs out of pocket for a family? Here its $1000/mo, and I'm sure its worse elsewhere. Its about $350/mo for a single person. And with more and more employers cutting the benefits because health care costs are skyrocketing, more and more families been forced to do without. I guess they should have predicted the cost of health care would skyrocket out of control in recent years before they had children 15 years ago then huh? It sure is easy to tell some one what they should have done 20 years ago from right now isn't it?

Maybe since health care costs have gotten to high and they can't afford it for their kids, they should just fix their mistake and kill their children now...you know, before they leech on the system. Would that be more 'ethically correct'?

You propose a simple solution to a complex multifaceted problem and accuse us of being naive.

 

[jjones]

lol at Constipate and his retarded POV.

My parents raised a family of 8 kids and for all the medical needs we required, we could have just as well been poor. Aside from an assortment of broken bones, dislocations, and moderate abrasions, that's all the medical attention we needed growing up; something quite within the means of a poor family, as has been the case since the dawn of time. Generally, poor families can get by without the need for health insurance, and it is a luxury that they cannot afford. It's only when something catastrophic occurs that the issue comes up, and catastrophy can occur at any level of society. As sometimes happens, the wealthy person may one day find themselves bankrupt and poor without health insurance for their family. How does your POV cover those fallen from affluence? Do they get an exemption? They shouldn't because, by what you have stated, we should cover ourselves for any event. So, if that's the case, then no one should have children.

 

[maziwanka]

holy crap this thread spiraled out of control.

 

[Kenazo]

Wow, that is crazy. I know it's been talked about quite a few times in this thread already, but it does make me glad to be in Canada. Our system has its flaws, but no one gets turned down. You may end up on a waiting list, but you will not get turned down.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Amused

More Bullsh!t.

It simply amazes me that people blindly believe false statistics pumped out by a corrupt communist dictator that controls all news coming in, and going out of his country.

The man shoots people for trying to leave, yet you believe he provides better health care than the US. :roll:

Ahem - those rates are maintained by the independent UNICEF, and are not provided by the Cuban government. Read more here, or just Google it yourself for more info. There is certainly an argument that the statistics are partially a function of the fact that American hospitals are getting better and better at birthing highly premature babies who go on to die in their first year of life, but the numbers still speak for themselves.

I am NOT saying I want to move to Cuba, or that they generally enjoy a great quality of life, but their health care is outstanding, and the ability of the public to access that health care is much better than it is in the US.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: Amused

More Bullsh!t.

It simply amazes me that people blindly believe false statistics pumped out by a corrupt communist dictator that controls all news coming in, and going out of his country.

The man shoots people for trying to leave, yet you believe he provides better health care than the US. :roll:

Ahem - those rates are maintained by the independent UNICEF, and are not provided by the Cuban government. Read more here, or just Google it yourself for more info. There is certainly an argument that the statistics are partially a function of the fact that American hospitals are getting better and better at birthing highly premature babies who go on to die in their first year of life, but the numbers still speak for themselves.

I am NOT saying I want to move to Cuba, or that they generally enjoy a great quality of life, but their health care is outstanding, and the ability of the public to access that health care is much better than it is in the US.

Nobody sees or hears anything in Cuba that Castro does not want them to see or hear. If you believe any outside organization can obtain objective, untainted statistics in Cuba, you're a bit too gullible.

This is about as believable as his 0% illiteracy rate claims.

 

[Zebo]

happens, the wealthy person may one day find themselves bankrupt and poor without health insurance for their family
---------\
If you're wealthy what do you need health insurance for?

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: Amused

Nobody sees or hears anything in Cuba that Castro does not want them to see or hear. If you believe any outside organization can obtain objective, untainted statistics in Cuba, you're a bit too gullible.

This is about as believable as his 0% illiteracy rate claims.

Perhaps you're just being "a bit too" stubborn because the data conflicts with your own beliefs. UNICEF relies on the UN and its own field offices for data, not on the host nations. Cuba's medical system is world-renowned. Again, I am no lover of Castro and would never want to live in a communist dictatorship, but their health system has been a point of pride in Cuba for decades.

 

[Amused]

Originally posted by: Don_Vito

Originally posted by: Amused

Nobody sees or hears anything in Cuba that Castro does not want them to see or hear. If you believe any outside organization can obtain objective, untainted statistics in Cuba, you're a bit too gullible.

This is about as believable as his 0% illiteracy rate claims.

Perhaps you're just being "a bit too" stubborn because the data conflicts with your own beliefs. UNICEF relies on the UN and its own field offices for data, not on the host nations. Cuba's medical system is world-renowned. Again, I am no lover of Castro and would never want to live in a communist dictatorship, but their health system has been a point of pride in Cuba for decades.

No, I'm being realistic. Castro does not allow ANYONE free access to his country. Everything is tightly controlled. People see only what he allows to be seen.

Look, even our best spy agencies never had fully accurate numbers of ANYTHING inside the USSR during the cold war. And humanitarian organizations had even worse info. No one knew just how bad life was in the USSR until after the wall fell. Castro has much less to control, and is far more ruthless at it.

 

[Tiqua]

Originally posted by: Kenazo
Wow, that is crazy. I know it's been talked about quite a few times in this thread already, but it does make me glad to be in Canada. Our system has its flaws, but no one gets turned down. You may end up on a waiting list, but you will not get turned down.

This is the problem I have about Canada's and other countries "free" healthcare system that covers everyone. My aunt died while she was on the "waiting list" to see a cardiologist. Ironically, one day before she was scheduled to see the doctor.

Tiqua

 

[TitanDiddly]

Dang, I wonder how much acid has gotten into his abdomen, can't be good.

And how the heck did we get into the abortion argument? If I weren't posting from a library I'd join the fiasco. <pro-life>

 

[Zebo]

Hospitals cannot turn people away who are in need of emergency care. Medicare, medicade and private charities all exist to help people with chronic illnesses.
-----------------
Does that cost us more in the long run? Someones paying for this cronic/emergency/terminal care. Would general preventative medicine/physicals/etc been cheaper?