Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Originally posted by: Jabbernyx
This. And we're funding their educations (postgrads)! Why wouldn't we want to reap the benefit of our investment?Originally posted by: ElFenix
i still say it doesn't make a lick of sense to give people visas to be students, let them study here, and then tell them they can't work here.
Obviously, this doesn't apply to the case of sub-standard code monkeys that companies try to ship in, which is what seems to be brought up everytime H1Bs are discussed on AT.
Look at this pure unadulterated racism. :|
You'd think after the "Macaca" incident and the recent New York Post cartoon, bigots like you would have a little shame. But instead you bring out your tired racism.
The word monkey should never be used to describe another human being. :brokenheart:
Get the head out of that ass of yours. Code monkey is a term used for any entry level coder regardless of nationality or skin color. Because much of the shit they code for is something a monkey can do. Somebody of low skill level.
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: Genx87
Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Originally posted by: Jabbernyx
This. And we're funding their educations (postgrads)! Why wouldn't we want to reap the benefit of our investment?Originally posted by: ElFenix
i still say it doesn't make a lick of sense to give people visas to be students, let them study here, and then tell them they can't work here.
Obviously, this doesn't apply to the case of sub-standard code monkeys that companies try to ship in, which is what seems to be brought up everytime H1Bs are discussed on AT.
Look at this pure unadulterated racism. :|
You'd think after the "Macaca" incident and the recent New York Post cartoon, bigots like you would have a little shame. But instead you bring out your tired racism.
The word monkey should never be used to describe another human being. :brokenheart:
Get the head out of that ass of yours. Code monkey is a term used for any entry level coder regardless of nationality or skin color. Because much of the shit they code for is something a monkey can do. Somebody of low skill level.
:thumbsup: :laugh:
Originally posted by: z0mb13
I am so glad I got out of the shithole named as the U S A. Your country probably has the most dmbfvked immigration laws EVER
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: z0mb13
I am so glad I got out of the shithole named as the U S A. Your country probably has the most dmbfvked immigration laws EVER
We're glad you got out too. :thumbsup: Thank you for making a positive contribution to our unemployment rate by freeing up a job.
Originally posted by: z0mb13
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: z0mb13
I am so glad I got out of the shithole named as the U S A. Your country probably has the most dmbfvked immigration laws EVER
We're glad you got out too. :thumbsup: Thank you for making a positive contribution to our unemployment rate by freeing up a job.
Arent you canadian? canadians should be expelled to because they also take US jobs and its easier for them to do so (their work visa is instant and renewable each year) :roll:
Originally posted by: Hacp
I agree. We should give these H1B guys a plane ticket out of the country asap. All companies ever do with H1bs is hire them for 1/2 of what an American worker would work for.
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Hacp
I agree. We should give these H1B guys a plane ticket out of the country asap. All companies ever do with H1bs is hire them for 1/2 of what an American worker would work for.
that's bullshit. we pay our h1b workers market rate plus we have to pay extra for legal and relo. we hire h1b because of the lack of talent in the market, NOT because they are cheaper. we already lost 2 h1bs because they got even higher offers elsewhere.
Originally posted by: Hacp
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Hacp
I agree. We should give these H1B guys a plane ticket out of the country asap. All companies ever do with H1bs is hire them for 1/2 of what an American worker would work for.
that's bullshit. we pay our h1b workers market rate plus we have to pay extra for legal and relo. we hire h1b because of the lack of talent in the market, NOT because they are cheaper. we already lost 2 h1bs because they got even higher offers elsewhere.
And did that loss bankrupt your company? I'm guessing no. Now you can go hire two Americans to do the same job. We are after all in the United States of America. Americans come first.
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Hacp
I agree. We should give these H1B guys a plane ticket out of the country asap. All companies ever do with H1bs is hire them for 1/2 of what an American worker would work for.
that's bullshit. we pay our h1b workers market rate plus we have to pay extra for legal and relo. we hire h1b because of the lack of talent in the market, NOT because they are cheaper. we already lost 2 h1bs because they got even higher offers elsewhere.
Originally posted by: Jabbernyx
This. And we're funding their educations (postgrads)! Why wouldn't we want to reap the benefit of our investment?Originally posted by: ElFenix
i still say it doesn't make a lick of sense to give people visas to be students, let them study here, and then tell them they can't work here.
Obviously, this doesn't apply to the case of sub-standard code monkeys that companies try to ship in, which is what seems to be brought up everytime H1Bs are discussed on AT.
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Hacp
I agree. We should give these H1B guys a plane ticket out of the country asap. All companies ever do with H1bs is hire them for 1/2 of what an American worker would work for.
that's bullshit. we pay our h1b workers market rate plus we have to pay extra for legal and relo. we hire h1b because of the lack of talent in the market, NOT because they are cheaper. we already lost 2 h1bs because they got even higher offers elsewhere.
If you look at the top 10 companies that were granted the most H-1B visas in 2006, 7 of them are companies whose primary business is providing outsourcing services in India. 6 are Indian companies. More than 25% of all H-1B visas went to those 7 companies. You'll have a hard time convincing me that those companies would rather hire "cheaper" American workers, but they just can't find any.
Originally posted by: z0mb13
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Hacp
I agree. We should give these H1B guys a plane ticket out of the country asap. All companies ever do with H1bs is hire them for 1/2 of what an American worker would work for.
that's bullshit. we pay our h1b workers market rate plus we have to pay extra for legal and relo. we hire h1b because of the lack of talent in the market, NOT because they are cheaper. we already lost 2 h1bs because they got even higher offers elsewhere.
If you look at the top 10 companies that were granted the most H-1B visas in 2006, 7 of them are companies whose primary business is providing outsourcing services in India. 6 are Indian companies. More than 25% of all H-1B visas went to those 7 companies. You'll have a hard time convincing me that those companies would rather hire "cheaper" American workers, but they just can't find any.
even if we follow your argument, if these companies cant hire the H1B workers here, they would simply hire them and place them abroad. US will be worse still.
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: z0mb13
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Hacp
I agree. We should give these H1B guys a plane ticket out of the country asap. All companies ever do with H1bs is hire them for 1/2 of what an American worker would work for.
that's bullshit. we pay our h1b workers market rate plus we have to pay extra for legal and relo. we hire h1b because of the lack of talent in the market, NOT because they are cheaper. we already lost 2 h1bs because they got even higher offers elsewhere.
If you look at the top 10 companies that were granted the most H-1B visas in 2006, 7 of them are companies whose primary business is providing outsourcing services in India. 6 are Indian companies. More than 25% of all H-1B visas went to those 7 companies. You'll have a hard time convincing me that those companies would rather hire "cheaper" American workers, but they just can't find any.
even if we follow your argument, if these companies cant hire the H1B workers here, they would simply hire them and place them abroad. US will be worse still.
Clearly they have a need for employees who are physically located in the US, or they wouldn't want to bring their employees here from India. They can pay them a lot less in India.
Originally posted by: z0mb13
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: z0mb13
Originally posted by: mugs
Originally posted by: JS80
Originally posted by: Hacp
I agree. We should give these H1B guys a plane ticket out of the country asap. All companies ever do with H1bs is hire them for 1/2 of what an American worker would work for.
that's bullshit. we pay our h1b workers market rate plus we have to pay extra for legal and relo. we hire h1b because of the lack of talent in the market, NOT because they are cheaper. we already lost 2 h1bs because they got even higher offers elsewhere.
If you look at the top 10 companies that were granted the most H-1B visas in 2006, 7 of them are companies whose primary business is providing outsourcing services in India. 6 are Indian companies. More than 25% of all H-1B visas went to those 7 companies. You'll have a hard time convincing me that those companies would rather hire "cheaper" American workers, but they just can't find any.
even if we follow your argument, if these companies cant hire the H1B workers here, they would simply hire them and place them abroad. US will be worse still.
Clearly they have a need for employees who are physically located in the US, or they wouldn't want to bring their employees here from India. They can pay them a lot less in India.
again going back to my point that these companies would pay more in time and money to sponsor a H1B worker because they cant find an equivalent local citizen. If they found one then they would hire a local person simply because its cheaper for them.
I really dont buy hiring foreign people because they are cheaper argument.
Originally posted by: z0mb13
I am so glad I got out of the shithole named as the U S A. Your country probably has the most dmbfvked immigration laws EVER
Ok here is a perspective from a former H1B holder:
I went to the states about 10 years ago to start my college education at UC Berkeley's top tier Computer Science program, then right before I graduated 9/11 and the dot com explosion hit, making it hard for me to get a job.
Why cant I compete with the local "code monkeys" while I had a education from Cal? One of the reason of course is due to the dot com explosion, but a bigger reason is because companies are real wary of hiring an international worker since they have to sponsor the H1 visa.
You know what companies need to do firstly to sponsor an H1 worker? First they need to make a case to the immigration dept that by they cannot find a US citizen to fullfill the positon, thus they have to hire the foreign worker.
So no, H1B workers cannot work in brainless jobs such as mc donalds or even as a starbucks barista. They need to have special skills that most Americans dont have. This is very true since most of my friends were engineering/highly technical graduates. Foreign students that majored in philosopy or other soft sciences very rarely can get a H1B after they graduate. And they are all VERY bright people, probably much brighter and talented than your typical "code monkeys"
So all in all a company needs to pay a minimum around 5K USD for lawyer fees and the H1B petition fees, not to mention the time that they have to wait to sponsor this foreign worker. Oh yeah also the US government also provide minimal quantity of the H1B visas each year (forgot what the exact amount is, I think around 30K visas a year), so a lot of people simply didnt get hired because the quota for the year is already gone (when I applied for my H1B, I needed to apply in April for October slots which were gone in a day!).
So my point is companies need to jump through all of these hoops just to hire one worker, and a lot simply don't want to and just hire a US citizen. The foreign people that receives these H1B visas are simply GOOD in what they do, since otherwise no company would make the effort to hire them.
Oh and I dont buy the comment that companies hire H1B workers since they are cheaper. Companies need to also show that they are paying these workers in a equitable pay respective to their position. So no way they can pay these workers 50% less to what a US citizen would get. That simply wont fly. When I was a H1B holder I got a pretty high salary (more than 70K a year), and most of my foreign friends also got that or more. I believe the minimum is probably around 50K a year, if it was less than that then your visa application would probably get rejected.
Oh also H1B workers also pay taxes including social security benefits. Money that we will NEVER get back. But yet we dont get the benefits that local people do.
And you think that once a foreign worker gets a H1B visa, he/she gets to stay in the US permanently? Wrong. an H1B is only valid for 3 years, and then can be extended for another 3 years. After that if he is not sponsored for green card by the company then he has to leave the states for good.
The green card sponsorship is another beast in its own. A company needs to sponsor a H1B worker to get a green card, and usually the process starts in the third year after he was granted the H1B visa since the process takes at least 2 years (many much longer). Also it is not cheap, around 10K in fees. A lot of people have to leave the US since their companies wont sponsor them for a green card or the process takes too long, or they simply get rejected.
I find that it is real funny people think these protectionist measures will work. For positions that can be filled with citizens, it will be filled with citizens since the cost of hiring a foreign worker is simply much greater. For positions that are hard to fill, they will people that are QUALIFIED for it, nevermind the nationality of the person. A lot of multinational corporations simply hire people and place them out of the US in countries that have friendlier immigration laws. And the US is worse for that because of brain drain and losses in tax revenue and spending of that person.
I know a bunch of people that were placed in other countries such as HongKong, China, etc as an interim since they have to wait for the H1B lottery quota to reset each year.
It is simply a shame that these talented people have to go through such hardship just to get the almighty GREEN CARD. These are smart talented people that studied in the states, but they are rejected to work in the USA due to extremely ass backwards immigration policy. A lot of them are simply tired of playing the green card game, and they simply go back to other countries and their home country to work there. US' loss is another country's gain.
Oh and by the way a lot of these foreign workers become founder of real succesfull companies such as Google.
What would be a more logical immigration policy?
Bill Gates brought the idea of eliminating the H1B cap, and I also support this. During bad times, there are not enough applications to reach the quota (an example is right after the dot com crash) but in good times the cap creates an artificial barrier.
I also propose for students graduating from US universities to get green cards right after they graduate. Maybe after a masters program in a highly scarce field such as engineering, medical, etc. Definitely after a PHD program (I believe there are much more international students compared to US citizens in a highly technical Phd program).
Maybe the gov can identify critical majors such as engineering, comp science, medical, etc that would supply more people to satisfy the demand in jobs. Soft majors such as phsychology can be excluded.
There is no reason to deny these people right to stay in the US if they desire to. In fact the US gov should BEG these people to stay, since the loss of their talents are much more dire for the US economy in the long term.
I also got fed up with the US immigration laws. At the time I didnt know if I can stay in the US permanently, so I chose to go to other countries to work. I worked in a US MNC in Shanghai, and currently working now in another US MNC in Hong Kong.
Right now if I continue to work here for 7 years, I will be granted permanent residence status instantly. OH also the tax rate here is much lower (maximum of 15% compared to minimum of 30% in the US)
End rant.
Originally posted by: Hacp
There are already plenty of engineers, scientists, and business people that were laid off. Send those foreigners back to their countries and lets hire American workers.
Originally posted by: blahblah99
Originally posted by: Hacp
There are already plenty of engineers, scientists, and business people that were laid off. Send those foreigners back to their countries and lets hire American workers.
So they can sit on their asses can contribute minimally to the company?
H1B employees are hired because of a) talent, or b) to fulfill a position others don't want to fill at a given salary.
Wut?Originally posted by: Sacrilege
Look at this pure unadulterated racism. :|
You'd think after the "Macaca" incident and the recent New York Post cartoon, bigots like you would have a little shame. But instead you bring out your tired racism.
The word monkey should never be used to describe another human being. :brokenheart:
Originally posted by: blahblah99
Originally posted by: Hacp
There are already plenty of engineers, scientists, and business people that were laid off. Send those foreigners back to their countries and lets hire American workers.
So they can sit on their asses can contribute minimally to the company?
H1B employees are hired because of a) talent, or b) to fulfill a position others don't want to fill at a given salary.
Very nice post! IINM though, the H1B holder only has to leave the US for a year before reapplying right?Originally posted by: z0mb13
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And you think that once a foreign worker gets a H1B visa, he/she gets to stay in the US permanently? Wrong. an H1B is only valid for 3 years, and then can be extended for another 3 years. After that if he is not sponsored for green card by the company then he has to leave the states for good.
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This is exactly what I was referring to. Lest I get branded as an apologist for immigrants, I abhor these H1B abuses but support valid (eg. PhD in silicon photonics or some such) H1B applicants.Originally posted by: rchiu
I hear you bro. There are lots of fearmongering going on against H1B visa holders. The fact is, the only companies mis-using H1B are those Indian offshoring companies like TATA, Info sys...ect (most of people posting here fearmongering probably don't even know what those are and what I am talking about).
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