H1B Visas banned under Tarp

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: fornax

Originally posted by: AreaCode707
I'm not arguing that some companies shameless lie in their H1B applications, but it is far from being "virtually all". And H1Bs do and should apply to more than just research institutions. Go back to my earlier example of ABAP. That's a coding job, but you won't find many US candidates with those skills.

Well, I took a quick look at what ABAP is and it looks like it's a high-level report language with a structure similar to that of many common programming languages. I'd say a competent C++ coder can be trained in ABAP in a few weeks time. So why hasn't your company done that? You'll train an ABAP programmer faster than it takes to get one under H1B.

Once again, people who don't know what they're talking about look at Wiki and assume they are experts. From earlier in the thread:

Most ABAP salaries are between $150k and 250k per year, and there still are not enough applicants, so they are clearly not underpaying. US simply does not train for that skill. (Edit: starting ABAP salary is approx $80k. Most of the ABAPers I know, who are H1B or green card, make significantly more than that. So much for hiring cheap labor.)

Link to ABAP salary http://www.simplyhired.com/a/s...SAP+ABAP/l-Ashburn,+VA I'm in Seattle, so consider the salary adjustment from VA to WA.

For the record, we've now changed the argument.

Initial argument: "there are plenty of qualified US workers; we shouldn't be hiring H1Bs"
Current argument: "well, there may not be enough qualified US workers but the companies should be training them"

The current argument becomes less a matter of fact and more a matter of opinion, so we won't have a clear-cut answer emerge.

My opinion differs from yours; I do not think it is a company's responsibility to train US workers if there are no US workers available. I think it's the responsibility of the educational system and the worker him/herself to become qualified for a job. It's nice if the employer wants or is willing to train, but I do not think that should be a legal requirement.

As far as the facts of ABAP, the average code monkey is not just a few months away from competence given training and opportunity. Hopefully my authority on this is enough for you, since I'm speaking from firsthand knowledge and your background is a once-over of the wiki (not trying to be pretentious here, I just have more visibility into the situation). As evidence, I offer this: if it were so simple and because it pays so well, wouldn't more code monkeys learn it and get those jobs? If you have the chance to take 4-6 months of classes and change your starting salary from $50k to $80k, wouldn't you? I submit that getting ABAP training and experience is much more complicated than suggested by the wiki article.

On top of that, there is definitely a difference to an employer between hiring an experienced ABAPer and training a new one. If you were hiring a Java code monkey, would it matter to you whether they were fresh out of school or had 7 years of experience? It definitely should.

So rather than blame the employers for hiring the only qualified employees they can find (and they typically do soak the market of American workers before they turn to H1B in this situation, since it's extremely difficult to get one of those H1B slots allocated to your company) I suggest that we talk about how the American educational system can better prepare US workers for these jobs.

 

[Mani]

Originally posted by: fornax

Originally posted by: Mani
Let's put one myth to rest definitively - H1Bs are NOT used as a "lower cost alternative" to US labor.

Ha-ha, good joke! How is the weather on your planet?

What you wrote is true for about 10%-15% of H1Bs.

Numbers pulled straight out of your ass just like everything else you've posted in this thread. The vast majority of the Fortune 500 uses H1Bs as a way of expanding the applicant pool. Maybe not necessarily finding a specialized skillset, but rather finding more appealing candidates in terms of relevant experience or fit. My company more than perhaps any other does extensive best practice sharing/ benchmarking against the rest of the Fortune 500 to make sure we are competitive in hiring top talent.

People who know a lot of code monkey H1Bs tend to think that is the norm - it is not.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: nixium
Just curious, are all of you who are opposed to H1B visas opposed to any form of legalization for illegal immigrants as well? If not, how do you resolve the disconnect?

I'll describe the problem as I see it. There are two separate issues here:

1. Abuse of H1 visas - This follows from Descartes's post. There is a section of people - Indian outsourcing companies, shady body shops, etc that are undeniably exploiting these visas.

2. US College graduates/skilled workers from abroad - These are the people described by rchiu, zomb13, etc. They are pretty much treated on par with American workers. JS80 is mentioning them when he talks about hiring based on talent and not price point. If you look at a Master's or PhD graduating class, you can usually find it mostly composed of foreigners; these are the ones that companies want to keep.

However, the bottom line is this. By introducing the second section of people, you are broadening the labor pool. This would consist of cases similar to what AreaCode707 mentioned - people with extremely specific skills that can't be found easily. However, it would also include generally smart people who are really good at what they do. If a citizen gets a grad degree at a top 10 college, and he has classmates that are foreign, then make no mistake - they are going to be competing with him. I don't know what the specific effect on wages is going to be, but it's probably going to depress them slightly. It might lead to issues such as age discrimination.

So you basically need to ask yourself - are you OK with allowing smart people from abroad to study at your universities and compete with citizens? Or even hiring smart people from world class universities abroad? You will be expanding the supply pool, but you will encouraging the "best and brightest" (such an overused phrase) to contribute to the american market. You need to compare the advantages and disadvantages, and resolve it in your mind.

That's the crux of the point. If you aren't OK with it, then there's no point with continuing this argument. If you're OK with it, then we can revisit the issue to see how to stem the abuses that mugs, et al are referring to.

Note that *any* immigration, unless your population growth is zero, is going to drive competition for citizens. If your main worry is keeping American workers employed, then you should focus on shutting down *all* immigration.

And to the H1B naysayers - might I point out that you're worrying about a candle flame when the entire house is ablaze? Compared to the millions flowing across the porous borders, and the fact that about 60% of all legal immigration is family based - yes, family based, with no skill sets necessary, only a family relation - the H1B problem is relatively minor. In fact, the green card lottery - 50,000 per year - provides *permanent* residency to randomly selected people who don't have to meet any level of stringent qualifications. H1Bs are temporary visas. If you're that outraged over importing code monkeys who work for pennies, perhaps you might be even more outraged over allowing 50,000 permanent residents - who by the way, don't have jobs before coming here, and are going to compete with local citizens.

And oh, those outraged over that video - it does not deal with H1B visas. That video is dealing with PERM, applicable to permanent residency. That's an entirely different topic.

Excellent post! :beer:

To put thing in perspective, in Feb 2009, the total US labor force is 154 million, with 142m employed and 12m unemployed (Bureau of Labor Statisitc). The H1B quota of 65,000 accounts for 0.04% of the total labor force, and even if you assume all those 65,000 people can be replaced by people in the 12m unemployed (big assumption if you ask me since if you have specific skills like lots of the H1B ppl, you probably won't be unemployeed), you will reduce only the unemployment by 0.54%. (from ~8% 7.5% as it is)

And in the process, you lose people with special skills and talents who pays good taxes (lot of them in high tax bracket too) And in general, you make US the symbol of anti-immigration when the whole country was built on the concept of immigration.

For me, it doesn't really matter what American decides since I have moved on to greener pastures. But seriously, the fearmongering without the logical thinking like Nixium and his post will only bring down fall to America just like the Unions brought to Big 3.

 

[Michael]

z0mb13 - The reason for the tourist visas for many countries (which are a real PITA for me since i lived in Asia for a while and many of my friends cannot visit me now that I am back in the USA) is that people come to the USA and don't leave. Essentially, the visa process is to make sure they have a good reason to go home.

I agree that the H1B program needs to be fixed. As a Canadian, it is enough of an issue to stay and work in the USA once you go past what the Trade NAFTA visa was meant for. I married an American which sidestepped the issue, otherwise I would have had to leave.

The US tax laws are also dumb as they are about the worst there is for living overseas. Not only does the USA block people who would be very good to have living in the USA, they make it expensive and hard for citizens and residents to live overseas as well.

Michael

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Hacp
There are already plenty of engineers, scientists, and business people that were laid off. Send those foreigners back to their countries and lets hire American workers.

Many Americans are only 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation descendants of foreigners. Your patriotism reeks of ignorance.

If they're hired here, then they are paid US wages, and taxed. The money and talent stays here. This is better than offshoring.

If they want to immigrate to the US, they can do so. There is a long line of immigrant hopefuls and H1bs should start at the back just like everyone else. If they want special treatment by cutting to the front, they should not be hired unless their company can't find an American or green card holder to fill that position first.

Right now, there are many jobless people bach/grad degrees so we don't need any H1bs except for rare cases where the guy is truly the next Einstein.

 

[nixium]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Hacp
There are already plenty of engineers, scientists, and business people that were laid off. Send those foreigners back to their countries and lets hire American workers.

Many Americans are only 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation descendants of foreigners. Your patriotism reeks of ignorance.

If they're hired here, then they are paid US wages, and taxed. The money and talent stays here. This is better than offshoring.

If they want to immigrate to the US, they can do so. There is a long line of immigrant hopefuls and H1bs should start at the back just like everyone else. If they want special treatment by cutting to the front, they should not be hired unless their company can't find an American or green card holder to fill that position first.

Right now, there are many jobless people bach/grad degrees so we don't need any H1bs except for rare cases where the guy is truly the next Einstein.

H1B visas and immigration are two separate matters.

H1B visas are intended to be temporary. If the visa holder chooses to immigrate, then that's an entirely different process.

H1B visa holders don't "cut in line".

It is clear that you aren't interested in a rational discussion of this matter. You simply ignore whatever any poster says, and repeatedly rave on with your talking points.

If you want to discuss this, then I suggest starting with actually learning how immigration law works in the real world, not in your fantasy world of right wing innuendo and accusation.

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: fornax

Originally posted by: z0mb13
halik please find a PHD graduate that is working at undergraduate salaries.

There are thousands of them. Postdocs in chemistry, biology, contract teachers in many universities, and similar positions that require PhD but pay $20-$25,000 per year. You haven't been out much, have you?

H1B hiring is completely and irrevocably corrupt and screwed up. In every big city there are regular seminars on how to shape the job offer to make it fit a particular candidate, and to avoid finding citizens or permanent residents.

z0mb13, you are either totally clueless about how the process works, or are outright lying in your posts.

The only places where H1B more or less works as intended are government-funded labs, universities, etc, and mostly because they don't have much of a financial gain to offer the job to a foreigner. Virtually all private companies are shamelessly lying in their H1B applications.

It is a high time for the H1B program to be scrapped, or at least limited only to research institutions, where often there are truly a handful of people who can do the job. These days most H1Bs go to coders and similar positions. What a joke.

Ok if the bolded part is true, then why the hell are these petitions APPROVED in the first place? Do you guys have monkeys working in the DOL that just hit approve or reject randomly?

oh and please also share what kind of experience that u have dealing with the H1B visa.
I experienced it MYSELF instead of reading random stuff on the internet

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: nixium
Just curious, are all of you who are opposed to H1B visas opposed to any form of legalization for illegal immigrants as well? If not, how do you resolve the disconnect?


And to the H1B naysayers - might I point out that you're worrying about a candle flame when the entire house is ablaze? Compared to the millions flowing across the porous borders, and the fact that about 60% of all legal immigration is family based - yes, family based, with no skill sets necessary, only a family relation - the H1B problem is relatively minor. In fact, the green card lottery - 50,000 per year - provides *permanent* residency to randomly selected people who don't have to meet any level of stringent qualifications. H1Bs are temporary visas. If you're that outraged over importing code monkeys who work for pennies, perhaps you might be even more outraged over allowing 50,000 permanent residents - who by the way, don't have jobs before coming here, and are going to compete with local citizens.

And oh, those outraged over that video - it does not deal with H1B visas. That video is dealing with PERM, applicable to permanent residency. That's an entirely different topic.

Excellent post! :beer:

To put thing in perspective, in Feb 2009, the total US labor force is 154 million, with 142m employed and 12m unemployed (Bureau of Labor Statisitc). The H1B quota of 65,000 accounts for 0.04% of the total labor force, and even if you assume all those 65,000 people can be replaced by people in the 12m unemployed (big assumption if you ask me since if you have specific skills like lots of the H1B ppl, you probably won't be unemployeed), you will reduce only the unemployment by 0.54%. (from ~8% 7.5% as it is)

And in the process, you lose people with special skills and talents who pays good taxes (lot of them in high tax bracket too) And in general, you make US the symbol of anti-immigration when the whole country was built on the concept of immigration.

For me, it doesn't really matter what American decides since I have moved on to greener pastures. But seriously, the fearmongering without the logical thinking like Nixium and his post will only bring down fall to America just like the Unions brought to Big 3.

great posts!

I want to also add that the green card lottery is not a real lottery. It is more like a rigged lottery. The odds of winning are determined by the kind of people that the immigration dept wants to bring in. If you are Chinese or from any country in Asia then you have very low chance of winning. If you are from European countries then you have a significant chance of winning.

Please keep in mind that these 50k people are picked RANDOMLY. so they can be farmers in some third rate country that have no skills whatsoever and will be a burden to the US society.

 

[GroundedSailor]

The green card lottery was set up to increase diversity in immigration, but those days are long gone where immigration demographics were lopsided.

If they still want diversity, a better way would be to make these 50,000 green cards available as a lottery to foreign students who graduate from US universities. There would have to be some conditions to be eligible, e.g., must have a GPA of 3 or 3.5 to qualify - this will eliminate those who would try to scam the system simply to get a green card.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: z0mb13

Originally posted by: fornax

Originally posted by: z0mb13
halik please find a PHD graduate that is working at undergraduate salaries.

There are thousands of them. Postdocs in chemistry, biology, contract teachers in many universities, and similar positions that require PhD but pay $20-$25,000 per year. You haven't been out much, have you?

H1B hiring is completely and irrevocably corrupt and screwed up. In every big city there are regular seminars on how to shape the job offer to make it fit a particular candidate, and to avoid finding citizens or permanent residents.

z0mb13, you are either totally clueless about how the process works, or are outright lying in your posts.

The only places where H1B more or less works as intended are government-funded labs, universities, etc, and mostly because they don't have much of a financial gain to offer the job to a foreigner. Virtually all private companies are shamelessly lying in their H1B applications.

It is a high time for the H1B program to be scrapped, or at least limited only to research institutions, where often there are truly a handful of people who can do the job. These days most H1Bs go to coders and similar positions. What a joke.

Ok if the bolded part is true, then why the hell are these petitions APPROVED in the first place? Do you guys have monkeys working in the DOL that just hit approve or reject randomly?

oh and please also share what kind of experience that u have dealing with the H1B visa.
I experienced it MYSELF instead of reading random stuff on the internet

The DOL relies on a company having all the checkboxes filled in when they submit the petition to the DOL.

As long as an audit can show that the company has advertised the position and they track the number of respondents, that is what counts. The validity of the description and the match of the H1B to the published description is
1) not done or
2) is done by people that do not have knowledge of the technical aspects of the description or
3) the background of the H1B is modified by the company to then match the published job description.


My comments are based on
1) family in-laws using the H1B (Medical)
2) worked for a company that hires H1B students
3) Working with State Employment offices in evaluating technical positions vs salary range offered

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: nixium

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Hacp
There are already plenty of engineers, scientists, and business people that were laid off. Send those foreigners back to their countries and lets hire American workers.

Many Americans are only 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation descendants of foreigners. Your patriotism reeks of ignorance.

If they're hired here, then they are paid US wages, and taxed. The money and talent stays here. This is better than offshoring.

If they want to immigrate to the US, they can do so. There is a long line of immigrant hopefuls and H1bs should start at the back just like everyone else. If they want special treatment by cutting to the front, they should not be hired unless their company can't find an American or green card holder to fill that position first.

Right now, there are many jobless people bach/grad degrees so we don't need any H1bs except for rare cases where the guy is truly the next Einstein.

H1B visas and immigration are two separate matters.

H1B visas are intended to be temporary. If the visa holder chooses to immigrate, then that's an entirely different process.

H1B visa holders don't "cut in line".

It is clear that you aren't interested in a rational discussion of this matter. You simply ignore whatever any poster says, and repeatedly rave on with your talking points.

If you want to discuss this, then I suggest starting with actually learning how immigration law works in the real world, not in your fantasy world of right wing innuendo and accusation.

You don't get it. If you want to work in America, apply for a green card. That is how every other foreigner who wants to work in America does it. Right now, America doesn't need H1bs. There are plenty of ready and willing workers looking for jobs. In fact, we should get rid of new H1b visas until unemployment settles down to 5-6%.

 

[blahblah99]

Originally posted by: Hacp

Originally posted by: SagaLore

Originally posted by: Hacp
There are already plenty of engineers, scientists, and business people that were laid off. Send those foreigners back to their countries and lets hire American workers.

Many Americans are only 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation descendants of foreigners. Your patriotism reeks of ignorance.

If they're hired here, then they are paid US wages, and taxed. The money and talent stays here. This is better than offshoring.

If they want to immigrate to the US, they can do so. There is a long line of immigrant hopefuls and H1bs should start at the back just like everyone else. If they want special treatment by cutting to the front, they should not be hired unless their company can't find an American or green card holder to fill that position first.

Right now, there are many jobless people bach/grad degrees so we don't need any H1bs except for rare cases where the guy is truly the next Einstein.

Since you just like to spout rhetoric and obviously have no idea how everything ties together.... I'll take your Einstein example and spell it out for you.

Einstein was born in Germany and got his education in Switzerland. After graduating, he was offered citizenship there and a job in the Swiss patent office. It was during his employment years in the patent office that he came up with most of his work.

Get the point or do I have to connect the dots for you?

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: ManiNumbers pulled straight out of your ass just like everything else you've posted in this thread. The vast majority of the Fortune 500 uses H1Bs as a way of expanding the applicant pool. Maybe not necessarily finding a specialized skillset, but rather finding more appealing candidates in terms of relevant experience or fit. My company more than perhaps any other does extensive best practice sharing/ benchmarking against the rest of the Fortune 500 to make sure we are competitive in hiring top talent.

People who know a lot of code monkey H1Bs tend to think that is the norm - it is not.

Well, I'm glad that you admit that your company acts against both the spirit and the letter of the law about H1Bs. Those are meant to be a stop-gap measure, the ultimate tool to find a worker with unique and specialized skills in a short time. The H1B program is definitely NOT meant to "expand the applicant pool". In fact, if applied strictly, the criterion for an H1B applicant is that there is no minimally qualified US applicant (citizen, green card holder, or other categories: refugees, etc.).

So thanks for confirming from the horse's mouth that indeed virtually everyone is abusing the H1B process and that it should be scrapped or replaced with something that can be controlled and audited properly.

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: z0mb13
Ok if the bolded part is true, then why the hell are these petitions APPROVED in the first place? Do you guys have monkeys working in the DOL that just hit approve or reject randomly?

oh and please also share what kind of experience that u have dealing with the H1B visa.
I experienced it MYSELF instead of reading random stuff on the internet

I was talking about US workers with those salaries. Sadly, those are normal salaries for this type of work in those fields, unless you're lucky to get a position with a big federal lab or institution.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Hacp

You don't get it. If you want to work in America, apply for a green card. That is how every other foreigner who wants to work in America does it. Right now, America doesn't need H1bs. There are plenty of ready and willing workers looking for jobs. In fact, we should get rid of new H1b visas until unemployment settles down to 5-6%.

You are the one not getting it. Green card takes 2~4 years and H1B is the only vehicle for Green Card applicants to stay and be employed in the US in the beginning of the process.

Plus this is how Green Card through job work -> Companies hire you on H1B for a year or two -> make sure you are as good you say you are -> apply Green Card for you.

Green card is a long/costly process for a company to go through, and very rare company sponsor green card right after hire.

So you take out H1B, you take out Green Card through job. Simple as that unless America come up with different ways for foreigners to be employed before/while waiting for Green Card processing.

 

[sciwizam]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: Hacp

You don't get it. If you want to work in America, apply for a green card. That is how every other foreigner who wants to work in America does it. Right now, America doesn't need H1bs. There are plenty of ready and willing workers looking for jobs. In fact, we should get rid of new H1b visas until unemployment settles down to 5-6%.

You are the one not getting it. Green card takes 2~4 years and H1B is the only vehicle for Green Card applicants to stay and be employed in the US in the beginning of the process.

Plus this is how Green Card through job work -> Companies hire you on H1B for a year or two -> make sure you are as good you say you are -> apply Green Card for you.

Green card is a long/costly process for a company to go through, and very rare company sponsor green card right after hire.

So you take out H1B, you take out Green Card through job. Simple as that unless America come up with different ways for foreigners to be employed before/while waiting for Green Card processing.

They would be lucky if it took that long. My dad has been waiting for more than 5yrs and he says it looks like it would take more than an year or two to clear through the backlog and get to his date of application.

 

[Aberforth]

This is a bad thing for US, nearly 25% of the US economy is driven by foreigners- it's a bad idea to throw them out. Software companies like Microsoft has almost 40% of their workforce from India, scientists in NASA has foreign researchers.....this is a bad idea for the economy on the whole.

 

[Circlenaut]

I say, let the US screw it self over by kicking qualified, talented workers out. Time to redistribute some of that US honey!

I'm a US Permanent Resident and possibly (haven't made up my mind yet) US citizen in 2 years, but if I get a job offer oversees that satisfies me I will not hesitate to take it. US citizenship my ass, we are all world citizens.

 

[BoomerD]

Since people here have made the comments about foreigners who graduate from US universities, then, because they can't get an H1B visa, they leave the US with their knowledge...in essence, creating a "brain drain"...Why then, are we in the USA educating people from around the world instead of focusing on educating our own citizens?

Never mind any increased tuition costs the foreigners pay...it's a small part of the overall educational budget anyway.

 

[bullbert]

Interesting how only the H1B holders and those getting rich (employers and lawyers) from abusing H1B holders are defending the H1B program.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: bullbert
Interesting how only the H1B holders and those getting rich (employers and lawyers) from abusing H1B holders are defending the H1B program.

I'm defending it and I don't benefit. I work for an employer that uses H1Bs which means, in fact, that I'm hypothetically competing with them for jobs. Wouldn't that make me LESS likely to defend it?

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: Hacp
There are already plenty of engineers, scientists, and business people that were laid off. Send those foreigners back to their countries and lets hire American workers.

As much as I would like to agree with this, I think that history shows the technological/engineering isolationism is a recipe for disaster

 

[z0mb13]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Since people here have made the comments about foreigners who graduate from US universities, then, because they can't get an H1B visa, they leave the US with their knowledge...in essence, creating a "brain drain"...Why then, are we in the USA educating people from around the world instead of focusing on educating our own citizens?

Never mind any increased tuition costs the foreigners pay...it's a small part of the overall educational budget anyway.

A big problem IMO is the K-12 education system here. If you didn't attend a private school or a top tier public school, you probably wont be able to compete with foreigners in technical majors such as engineering.

When I went to Berkeley, the technical majors (engineering, comp sci, biochem, etc) were located in the northern part of the campus. Most of the soft majors are in the lower part.
I see about 70% asian people in the northern part of the campus, granted most of them are citizens themselves. Most of the international students that I knew got a scholarship, otherwise they wont be able to pay the tuition.

 

[JSt0rm]

Originally posted by: Aberforth
This is a bad thing for US, nearly 25% of the US economy is driven by foreigners- it's a bad idea to throw them out. Software companies like Microsoft has almost 40% of their workforce from India, scientists in NASA has foreign researchers.....this is a bad idea for the economy on the whole.

Naw. Joe Dirt will come in there and fill their shoes

Rockets? Joe has fireworks thems close right?

Code? Joe has a xbox and knows how dem computers werk.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: z0mb13

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Since people here have made the comments about foreigners who graduate from US universities, then, because they can't get an H1B visa, they leave the US with their knowledge...in essence, creating a "brain drain"...Why then, are we in the USA educating people from around the world instead of focusing on educating our own citizens?

Never mind any increased tuition costs the foreigners pay...it's a small part of the overall educational budget anyway.

A big problem IMO is the K-12 education system here. If you didn't attend a private school or a top tier public school, you probably wont be able to compete with foreigners in technical majors such as engineering.

When I went to Berkeley, the technical majors (engineering, comp sci, biochem, etc) were located in the northern part of the campus. Most of the soft majors are in the lower part.
I see about 70% Asian people in the northern part of the campus, granted most of them are citizens themselves. Most of the international students that I knew got a scholarship, otherwise they wont be able to pay the tuition.

I do not know about now, but when I was in Engineering at LIT & MIT, many of the foriegn Chinese (Taiwan) were actually on stipends from their government; not scholarships.

The same held true at WPI, Cal Tech & Rensselaer