Hamas Spiritual Leader Killed by Israelis

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
its irrevant. the settlements started after the 1967 war, after israel learned that the arab partners/palestine weren't really going to be serious about peace ever. and before the 1967 and subsequent occupation of those two areas, there was endless terrorism anyways. what you don't understand is the terrorists want everything, not just simply gaza/palestine. there is no pleasing them.

Wrong, only Hamas wants to kick all Israel out and they do not represent the majority of Palestinian. There are various reason for the terrorism in Palestine over the last half a decade. In the earlier years PLO resort to terrorism because they wanted Israel out of the occupied territory. Hamas initially wanted Israel out of the occupied territory but in recent year has being doing more and more killing to reflect the anti-Israel sentiment and for revenge.

Terrorsim is just one way of fighting enemy. To just say all terrorist are the same, they want everything and there is no pleasing them is just way over simplifying things. Like all war and conflicts, there is always ways to negotiate for an end to the conflict. If we just label Palestinian and terrorist and have the belief that negotiation is useless, then there will be no end to the violence until one side is completely annihilated.

And you think that if Israel starts negotiating now that would end things? Not a chance. Aside from Hamas and Jihad Islami calling for the end of Israel, it would just be whetting the appetites of terrorists all over the world. It would be showing that terrorism WORKS. Why would they then stop? Why not just go ahead and kill civillians until they get whatever they want?

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
And you think that if Israel starts negotiating now that would end things? Not a chance. Aside from Hamas and Jihad Islami calling for the end of Israel, it would just be whetting the appetites of terrorists all over the world. It would be showing that terrorism WORKS. Why would they then stop? Why not just go ahead and kill civillians until they get whatever they want?

Well, you will never solve any problem if you adopt Bush Admin's simplistic view of terrorism. It is never black and white, or simply good vs. evil. You always need to weight your options and never say no to one solution.

First of all, you need to realize if Israel negotiates, they are negotiating with a government that represents the Palestinian people, not terrorist. There are lots of right wingers in both Israel and the US who still think PLO is still an terrorist organization. But this is 2004 and not the 1970's and 1980's. Arafat in 1988 publically renounced terrorism on behalf of the PLO organization and PLO is now representing the Palestinian people. There is no evidance other than bunch of unsubstantiated claims that PLO supports terrorism in the 2000's.

Second, you need to realize that Hamas does not represnt the majority of the Palestinian people, but it is gaining power as Israeli refuse to negotiate and adopt heavy handed approach in containing Palesinian's anger. By refusing to negotiate and surpress Palestinian's will to have an independent state, Israelis are fueling terrorism. Not the other way around.

Palestinian situation is a complex one, it is not something that can be solved by someone with "we good, they evil" mentality.

 

[BugsBunny1078]

Hamas is our enemy. We need to help Israel destroy them. They have declared war on us. Death to Islam!

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: BugsBunny1078
Hamas is our enemy. We need to help Israel destroy them. They have declared war on us. Death to Islam!

Why don't you go back into your cave, troll. :|

 

[0roo0roo]

You did not debunk anything. Assassination by brute indescriminate force is just that. That was and is my total point. The israelis want peace, but use a helicopter and a missile where one bullet would do. Who said anything about soldiers? That was your excuse. The Israelis, and everyone else for that matter, have employed assassins for centuries. Sure, he is still a martyr if you have a professional kill him, but there is no collateral damage. No extra martyrs, no dramatic morgue pictures with brains leaking out, no fanfare, just a dead "spritual leader".

you watch far too many action movies. some targets are simply near impossible to assainate with a bullet. kim jong il? saddamn hussein? and they weren't even totallly surrounded by religious zealots, they were much easier to reach. theres nothing indescriminant about attacking a man hiding in a house with a precision weapon when the alternatives would involve blood baths. how about carpet bombing the cities? i'm sure that would be quite effective and within their power, but israelis unlike palestinians try to minimize casualties. you do not send agents deep into gaza or the west bank alone. you send troops and heavy tanks into narrow alleys full of sniping points from roof tops and alleys, and houses full of people. do you think a head terrorist holds his men back in order protect civilians he hides behind? no, in fact he enjoys the fact that any collateral damage can be blamed on his enemy and the blood bath ensues. leaders of extreme ideology and fanatism do not give up without a fight.

get a grip on reality.

Wrong, only Hamas wants to kick all Israel out and they do not represent the majority of Palestinian. There are various reason for the terrorism in Palestine over the last half a decade. In the earlier years PLO resort to terrorism because they wanted Israel out of the occupied territory. Hamas initially wanted Israel out of the occupied territory but in recent year has being doing more and more killing to reflect the anti-Israel sentiment and for revenge.

which is why the plo never changed their charter right? and actually you are still wrong, since even before 67, they resorted to terrorism. there was no "occupation" at that time. the occupation arguement is old and rather worn considering the evidence.

Terrorsim is just one way of fighting enemy. To just say all terrorist are the same, they want everything and there is no pleasing them is just way over simplifying things. Like all war and conflicts, there is always ways to negotiate for an end to the conflict. If we just label Palestinian and terrorist and have the belief that negotiation is useless, then there will be no end to the violence until one side is completely annihilated.

i suggest you negotiate with hitler, and al queda. i'd love to see you try. fanatical ideaology prevents any honest negotiation, as the goals of fanatics are not realistic. they are fantasy. not all people can be reasoned with. until the palestinians reject their tactics of indescriminant violence and terror, and goals of destroying all israel, there can be no honest negotiation. you cannot talk of peace when one side harbors and protects, and collaborates with groups that mean to kill you regardless of what you do.

First of all, you need to realize if Israel negotiates, they are negotiating with a government that represents the Palestinian people, not terrorist. There are lots of right wingers in both Israel and the US who still think PLO is still an terrorist organization. But this is 2004 and not the 1970's and 1980's. Arafat in 1988 publically renounced terrorism on behalf of the PLO organization and PLO is now representing the Palestinian people. There is no evidance other than bunch of unsubstantiated claims that PLO supports terrorism in the 2000's.

wrong, the PLO is in bed with terrorists. its 70 thousand armed security forces given to them as a token of faith by israel in oslo do nothing but help terrorists. you cannot honestly say that 70 thousand troops under arafat, more per capita then anywhere else in the world cannot put an end to terror? it is the plo that indoctrinates children from day one with textbooks filled with incitement to violence, horrible racial hatred, government religious leaders singing death from all forms of media... no, simply they simply are joined at the hip.

Second, you need to realize that Hamas does not represnt the majority of the Palestinian people, but it is gaining power as Israeli refuse to negotiate and adopt heavy handed approach in containing Palesinian's anger. By refusing to negotiate and surpress Palestinian's will to have an independent state, Israelis are fueling terrorism. Not the other way around.

actually no, every attempt at negotiation has been met by terror. the palestinians use it as their means of negotiation, hoping to get better deals by prolonging the suffering. they know very well that every suicide bomber helps their cause, it cynically gains the sympathy of people like you. they kill israelis, and their population loves it. they gain martryes and that encourages their population even further. any attempts to stop terror that kill people help their cause. frankly any dead help their cause, and they know it. it is why they promote their culture of hatred and death.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: rchiu
Well, you will never solve any problem if you adopt Bush Admin's simplistic view of terrorism. It is never black and white, or simply good vs. evil. You always need to weight your options and never say no to one solution.

actually most things are simple until made complicated due to politics.

Originally posted by: rchiu
First of all, you need to realize if Israel negotiates, they are negotiating with a government that represents the Palestinian people, not terrorist. There are lots of right wingers in both Israel and the US who still think PLO is still an terrorist organization. But this is 2004 and not the 1970's and 1980's. Arafat in 1988 publically renounced terrorism on behalf of the PLO organization and PLO is now representing the Palestinian people. There is no evidance other than bunch of unsubstantiated claims that PLO supports terrorism in the 2000's.

what planet are you on? the PA are terrorists. starting with the egyptian arafat(murderer and plane hijacker) on down. but oh! wait! arafat SAYS he is a "good boy" now! no evidence? BWHAHAHAHAAH! man you are deluded! do you really think he no longer controls al fatah, the terrorist group HE started?

Originally posted by: rchiu
Second, you need to realize that Hamas does not represnt the majority of the Palestinian people, but it is gaining power as Israeli refuse to negotiate and adopt heavy handed approach in containing Palesinian's anger. By refusing to negotiate and surpress Palestinian's will to have an independent state, Israelis are fueling terrorism. Not the other way around.

no one says hamas represents the "majority" of "palestinians" they along with other terrorist groups however do represent a very large minority....one that controls the so called palestinian authority , that teaches hatered trough the PA public school system, PA TV/radio and sermons from even the mufti of the PA himself calling for the death of jews and americans.

Originally posted by: rchiu
Palestinian situation is a complex one, it is not something that can be solved by someone with "we good, they evil" mentality.

it is actualyl simple, it will be over when one side wins, for the past 50 years,it has been israel, who has defeated a consortium of arab nations bent on thier destruction multiple times.

 

[BugsBunny1078]

We will continue to stand by Israel and will eventually defeat the evil Islamic terrorists.

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: BugsBunny1078
We will continue to stand by Israel and will eventually defeat the evil Islamic terrorists.

he should be banned for his racist comments

 

[nutxo]

Originally posted by: MegaWorks

Originally posted by: BugsBunny1078
We will continue to stand by Israel and will eventually defeat the evil Islamic terrorists.

he should be banned for his racist comments

Islam is a race?

 

[MegaWorks]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

in 1982 when they occupied Beirut, the IDF killed 14000 people 90% of them are unarmed civilians, thats only Beirut and don't forget Sabra & Shatila and you're telling me that Sharon tried to "minimize casualties" is this a joke!. Second Israel had no rights to invade Lebanon, it was againt international law in which Israel violates every time til today (UN resolutions)

i wonder why israel invaded? perhaps because lebanon had become like afganistan with the taliban, a haven for terrorists and had conducted a series deadly attacks on civilians in israel.

Good question why did they invaded Lebanon?

This is addressed to all those people who attempt to smear individuals who disagree with the political ideology of Zionism.

What is the issue? The issue is that Zionism is a European, political school of thought which came about in the late 19th century. Therefore, one cannot say that Zionism equals Judaism since Judaism has existed for over 3,000 years, whereas Zionism has been around for less than a century. The fathers of Zionism were two men named Theodore Hertzl and Chaim Weizmann, who were both self-professing atheists, a significant fact considering that Jews were promised the land by God. Labeling someone opposed to Zionism as racist and anti-Jewish is akin to calling someone opposed to apartheid as anti-white. The Zionist ideology can be characterized by three qualities: settler colonialism, expansionism and racism.

Why does Zionism equal colonialism? The history of Zionism has striking similarities to the first European settlers in America and their attempt to annihilate the Native Americans. The Jewish settlers arbitrarily created a state based on the United Nations' resolution of partition. The result of the matter is that the indigenous people of the land, the Palestinians, have been reduced to less than a quarter of Occupied Palestine's present population, living on less than 15 percent of the land. According to George F. Kossaifi, chief of Human Development in the United Nations, in 1948 approximately 1 million Palestinians fled. Since that year, close to half a million have been killed. Israel has ignored every U.N. resolution condemning its brutal nature. Israel has rejected General Assembly Resolutions 194 (III), 3089 D (XXVIII), 242, 383, 237 and 681. These resolutions, voted on by countries of the world except the United States and Israel, have declared that the Palestinian people should be compensated for property losses and should be entitled to equal rights and self-determination, including withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the six-day war. Furthermore, the UN denounced the Zionist political ideology as racist.

Why does Zionism equal expansionism? There are at least two methods by which an ideology is propagated: expansion by colonization and expansion by ideology. Ben-Gurion, the first prime minister of Israel, said to the World Council of Opal Zion in Tel Aviv in 1938 (cited by Israel Shahak, Journal of Palestine Studies, spring 1981): "The boundaries of Zionist aspiration include southern Lebanon, southern Syria, today's Jordan, all of CIS-Jordan (the West Bank) and the Sinai."

The Zionist ideology sought to occupy much of the Middle East. Israeli armed forces have failed miserably to defeat the Southern Lebanese people, although in 1982 they killed 20,000 civilians, wounded 30,000, and left over 600,000 people homeless (Christian Science Monitor, 1982). Ideologically, however, Israelis, with the aid of the United States, have been very successful in sedating the anger of the Arab people outside Palestine by establishing a puppet government and leaders. This is why the corrupt and non-democratic regimes in the Middle East receive billions of U.S. tax dollars. Last year alone, Egypt received $2.5 billion. An estimated $3 billion was given to Israel as agreed by the Camp David Signing of 1978.

Perhaps nothing is more evident about Zionism than its racist attitude toward its own people and others around the world. Internally, the Zionist regime has unofficially classified its people into four groups, the Ashkenazic Jews (the white European Jews who are now in control), the Sephardic Jews (who are mainly Arab Jews), the Ethiopian Jews (who are treated as third-class citizens) and the Palestinians.

Here are some of the atrocities that have been committed in the name of Zionism. I will cite just a few examples as a way of clarification. Between December 9, 1987 and November 30, 1991 over 5,000 Palestinian children were treated for gunshot wounds in Gaza, according to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. Another 12,000 children were treated for injuries sustained from beatings by Israeli troops.

One can trace Zionist Israeli racism to its founding father, Weizmann, a close friend of General Jan Smuts, South Africa's future prime minister. Smuts pushed the British government to adopt the Balfour Declaration in order to construct a Zionist colony under British direction (N. Kirschner, "Zionism and Union of South Africa: Fifty Years of Friendship and Understanding," Jewish Affairs, South Africa, May 1960). It is perhaps for this reason that Israel supported South Africa's former Apartheid regime with lethal weapons. In compensation, Israel continues to export diamonds, although Israel itself does not produce them. The ramifications of this cordial friendship between the Apartheid and the Zionist governments run even deeper.

The Ethiopian Jews are treated as lesser Jews; their blood is unacceptable and has been "thrown away". Even the Sephardic Jews who have lived among the Palestinians for centuries have been treated as second-class citizens

The crimes of Zionism have transcended borders, however. The Israeli government is responsible for training a death squad in Nicaragua, testing nuclear weapons in Cameroon and bombing an American Naval ship, USS Liberty, thereby killing 32 Americans and wounding 75.

It is time to hold the Zionist ideology responsible for its action. For too long it has been hidden under the cloak of anti-Semitism.

Many practicing Jews are not Zionist. The world would be hypocritical to denounce Apartheid and not Zionism. Furthermore, the United States is hypocritical to call for human rights in China and maintain Israel as its closest ally. The anti-Zionism stance is an anti-Oppression stance.

0roo0roo don't try with me, I know a lot

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
actually most things are simple until made complicated due to politics.

Politics is fact of life. Deal with it.

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
what planet are you on? the PA are terrorists. starting with the egyptian arafat(murderer and plane hijacker) on down. but oh! wait! arafat SAYS he is a "good boy" now! no evidence? BWHAHAHAHAAH! man you are deluded! do you really think he no longer controls al fatah, the terrorist group HE started?

That's what I mean when I said you right wingers can't tell if this is year 2004 or 1970s/1980's. Arafat and his PLO used terrorism as way to fight for Palestinian indepedance back in the 70s and 80s, I do not dispute that. What I am saying is time has changed, and through negotiations and peace talks, the Palestinian government and their own land is starting to take shape and Arafat and the majority of Palestinian is trying to achieve independance through peaceful means. He has been involved in numerous peace talk in the 90's, that was clearly documented. There is no proof of him authorized any act of terrorism in the recent year.

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
no one says hamas represents the "majority" of "palestinians" they along with other terrorist groups however do represent a very large minority....one that controls the so called palestinian authority , that teaches hatered trough the PA public school system, PA TV/radio and sermons from even the mufti of the PA himself calling for the death of jews and americans.

Define large minority, 10,20,30,40 %? What's the proof to your claim that terrorist group controls the palestinian authority?

Sure there are message promoting hatred in PA media, there are message promoting hatred towards Muslim in the US too. There are groups in American who takes messages in Bibles out of context and teach ignorant people racism with it. Again, those message do not represent the people of palestine, and people who promote those messages do not represent the people of palestine. And to say "paletinian people" promotes violance based on isolated messages, many taken out of context by a source commissioned by Israeli goverment propaganda machine, is just trying to promate hatred towards the entire group of Palestinian people.

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK
it is actualyl simple, it will be over when one side wins, for the past 50 years,it has been israel, who has defeated a consortium of arab nations bent on thier destruction multiple times.

Yeah, sure, Israel has won, force rules all. If Israel has won, why are we talking about this Palestinian problem today.

 

[0roo0roo]

Yeah, sure, Israel has won, force rules all. If Israel has won, why are we talking about this Palestinian problem today.

its a wonder you finally asked yourself this. why oh why doesn't israel just kill as many as they can with what they have. u know..follow the basic palestinian creedo. ??? for if they did, there would be no palestinian problem today. there wouldn't really be any palestinians would there?

There are groups in American who takes messages in Bibles out of context and teach ignorant people racism with it. Again, those message do not represent the people of palestine, and people who promote those messages do not represent the people of palestine.

you must be joking. where as freaks in the us are marginalized, it is the palestinian government that indoctrinates with hatred. it is the mainstream religious leadership, it is in all forms of government media. don't even try comparing it to the US. it only compares with nazi germany.

0roo0roo don't try with me, I know a lot

apparently not, since you posted a rather pathetic copy and paste quote about zionism in response to a question about the war in lebanon.

and oh god, your giving more inflated numbers? 10,000 was thought to be inflated already. the record of number inflation by the palestininans is rather damning.

its funny how the supposedly expansionist israelis gave back the entire sinai desert to egypt for peace, taking down settlements to boot. this simple fact alone nullifies any point you thought you had.

 

[rextilleon]

I for one would like to congradulate General Sharon for doing what BUsh and the cowards in Washington should have been doing all along. Target the leadership of terrorist organizations. For the muslim racist MegaWorthless---let it suffice to say that your posts reveal your Jihadist mentality. MOhammed killed off a townfull of Jews because they didn't accept him. So little has changed----If we don't accept Mohammed we get knocked off too! In the West we believe in diversity and many truths. Get use to that or leave.

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo

its a wonder you finally asked yourself this. why oh why doesn't israel just kill as many as they can with what they have. u know..follow the basic palestinian creedo. ??? for if they did, there would be no palestinian problem today. there wouldn't really be any palestinians would there?

Because unlike uninformed right winger like you, there are many people, including many Israelis, with conscience. Those people knows it is both inhuman and impossible to murder the entire 9.7 million Palestinian population. And as long as there are Palestinian left in this world, force will not stop the violance and terrorism.

Originally posted by: 0roo0roo


you must be joking. where as freaks in the us are marginalized, it is the palestinian government that indoctrinates with hatred. it is the mainstream religious leadership, it is in all forms of government media. don't even try comparing it to the US. it only compares with nazi germany.

You don't get it do you? Maybe there is 1% of material promoting hatred in US media, and maybe there is 49% in Palestinian media, that is not the point. The point is, as long as it is not the official position of the government, and as long as it does not represent the majority of the people there, you right wingers have no right calling "the palestinian" are spreading hatred. If you insist on saying the palestinian, or the government that represents palestinian sponsors terrorism and promotes hatred, you better provide hard evidance, or you are just trying to stir up people's emotion with misinformation and trying to make a bad situation worse.

 

[Shad0hawK]

Originally posted by: rchiu

You don't get it do you? Maybe there is 1% of material promoting hatred in US media, and maybe there is 49% in Palestinian media, that is not the point. The point is, as long as it is not the official position of the government, and as long as it does not represent the majority of the people there, you right wingers have no right calling "the palestinian" are spreading hatred. If you insist on saying the palestinian, or the government that represents palestinian sponsors terrorism and promotes hatred, you better provide hard evidance, or you are just trying to stir up people's emotion with misinformation and trying to make a bad situation worse.

actually it IS the point! providehard evidence? BWHAHAHAAHAH how many excerpts from the palestinian media have i posted? LOTS your only defense is to call people names and ignore it.

who runs the official palestinian TV/Radio/news? the PA.

who runs the public schools? the PA.

what does the PA mufti have to say? "Oh, Allah, destroy America as it is controlled by Zionist Jews"(BTW he said this in 1997 in a service at the al agsa mosque)

 

[rchiu]

Originally posted by: Shad0hawK

Originally posted by: rchiu

You don't get it do you? Maybe there is 1% of material promoting hatred in US media, and maybe there is 49% in Palestinian media, that is not the point. The point is, as long as it is not the official position of the government, and as long as it does not represent the majority of the people there, you right wingers have no right calling "the palestinian" are spreading hatred. If you insist on saying the palestinian, or the government that represents palestinian sponsors terrorism and promotes hatred, you better provide hard evidance, or you are just trying to stir up people's emotion with misinformation and trying to make a bad situation worse.

actually it IS the point! providehard evidence? BWHAHAHAAHAH how many excerpts from the palestinian media have i posted? LOTS your only defense is to call people names and ignore it.

who runs the official palestinian TV/Radio/news? the PA.

who runs the public schools? the PA.

what does the PA mufti have to say? "Oh, Allah, destroy America as it is controlled by Zionist Jews"(BTW he said this in 1997 in a service at the al agsa mosque)

Oh yeah, you mean the link you posted to the Israeli website whose mission is to protray Palestinian in the worst possible way to gain political advantage?

You want to based on all your theory based on some biased source, fine, just don't ask others to be as blind as you are. Just a reminder that there are many ways to play with words, translation and taking things out of context.

And I do not deny that there are quite a few people with racist and violent view in Palestine. But again, unless you get some hard evidance that show the majority of people in Palestine actually support violence or it's the government's official position to support terrorism, you are just doing what those extremist factions in Palestine are doing, promote hatred with misinformation.

 

[0roo0roo]

your saying its a vast zionist conspiracy to put anti semitic text books into the hands of palestnian children?

its a simple fact these are used. its time to stop with the apologist denial already. no one has to protray them in the worst possible light when they shout it from the roof tops themselves, broadcasting their hate for all to see.