HardOCP editors declare "shimmer" issue meaningless

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: M0RPH
Thanks for the videos, Joker. Can you tell me which HL2 level that is? I'd like to make a video on my X800 for comparison.

it's dm_lockdown

I can actually get the shimmering to effectively disappear by using very high quality AA and a LOD bias of 0.250 (and HQ/optimizations all off of course).

edit: beat me to it by a microsecond.

 

[VIAN]

Thanks a lot for these videos Joker.

The shimmering is very obvious in your video Joker.

Yes, the shimmering is more noticeable depending on the textures and it just so happens that these textures happen to show how shimmering works. Still, HQ is better than Q. Imagine playing HL2 and finding this crap.

I would suggest anyone troubled by this use the 78.03 drivers and High Quality only until the issue is fully resolved?

Quality has always been like that. Those pics are from a 6600GT where the High Quality is working properly. So it's not like Quality was ever better looking.

I've got both pics open and for the life of me I can't see what you all are talking about. I see moire in the quality pic but I don't see what is being called shimmering. Help me out?

The moire is the shimmering. It's just a picture, but if you move, it sparkles sort of (shimmering). This happens because the textures are aliased - a lot. So, it seems to me that it's pretty stupid to turn on Anti-Aliasing, if you don't use High Quality settings.

Thanks for the videos, Joker. Can you tell me which HL2 level that is? I'd like to make a video on my X800 for comparison.

Somewhere in the prison, or simply HL2 Deathmatch - Lockdown, I think. I have pics if you would like to see. X800 filtering is better than Nvidia's default filtering, but not Nvidia's High Quality filtering. It kinda falls in the middle.
X800 default VS NV default VS NV High

 

[NYHoustonman]

Thanks for the videos, I sat around looking at those screenshots and couldn't for the life of me find any problems, but with motion I can really see what you guys are talking about. That's pretty ugly :x, and VERY noticeable... I can't see how anyone could honestly not see that.

 

[nRollo]

I would say anyone playing HL2 should just use High Quality as there seems to be a lot of headroom to do so?

http://endeavorquest.net:8880/SLI.htm

I need to do some high quality benching I suppose, but it looks like even one 7800GTX has power to spare on that game.

 

[nRollo]

DP

 

[Matt2]

Guys...

I really dont understand what the freaking big deal is. I've seen texture "shimmering" on my X800XL many many many times, BF2, HL2, Far Cry...

Both companies have it.

/thread

 

[HendrixFan]

So, unlike your initial post, you now notice the issue and attribute it to a failure?

I ask since you seem to be discussing a workaround for something HardOCP said wasn't visible.

 

[CPlusPlusGeek]

Any argument an ATi fan can make against shimmering is non-seq because ATi has it too.

 

[Munky]

Originally posted by: CPlusPlusGeek
Any argument an ATi fan can make against shimmering is non-seq because ATi has it too.

You forgot one little detail: it's not nearly as bad as the Nv shimmering on "Quality" :laugh: settings.

 

[dfloyd]

I have not read the whole discussion so sorry if I missed something but come on now. This is just a silly post imo. Rollo from what I am reading it seems like you are stating since these guys at this web site claim its not a problem its not. Thats just silly. I dont care how big the web site is there is no way they could cover every concievable hardware configuration. For that reason alone there is a good chance they may never of experienced it. But claiming it is not an issue because x or y claims they have not seen it does not make it not an issue. I have never seen it, so should I claim that no one has the problem because I have never had it? And honestly the web site making claims like that shows bias and a very un professional behavior imo.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: dfloyd
I have not read the whole discussion so sorry if I missed something but come on now. This is just a silly post imo. Rollo from what I am reading it seems like you are stating since these guys at this web site claim its not a problem its not. Thats just silly. I dont care how big the web site is there is no way they could cover every concievable hardware configuration. For that reason alone there is a good chance they may never of experienced it. But claiming it is not an issue because x or y claims they have not seen it does not make it not an issue. I have never seen it, so should I claim that no one has the problem because I have never had it? And honestly the web site making claims like that shows bias and a very un professional behavior imo.

Could we all please make a resolution to never use the word "bias" in a video forum post ever again?

I swear to God, "bias!" has become the "racist!" of the video forums the world over.

Hint: I'm biased, you're biased, we're all biased.

You are also misinterpreting my post BTW- I wasn't trying to say mip boundary shimmer doesn't exist, only that many of us never even notice it.

 

[Rock Hydra]

Originally posted by: Matt2
Guys...

I really dont understand what the freaking big deal is. I've seen texture "shimmering" on my X800XL many many many times, BF2, HL2, Far Cry...

Both companies have it.

/thread

Although, I would agree with you that it's not a big deal. Well, to me anyway. In fact it doesn't bother me at all, except in FarCry where the models look like plastic.

On the other hand though...Just because it's a problem on both sides, doesn't mean it shouldn't be resolved.

 

[Ackmed]

It doesnt really matter what they say. Their opinion matters no more or less than end users. I know for a fact that Brent knows about it, and has for some time. When I first got my GTX, I posted about it, he responded telling to set my drivers to HQ, and LOD to clamp. On the default install of drivers (what they bench with) it can be very easy to see, depending on the game.

Its very annoying to some, and not to others. Thats the bottom line. Either way its there, and NV should at least attempt to fix it in Quality, not just High Quality.

 

[kylebisme]

Exactly, and for those who don't mind that is great, but for those of us who do it would be nice if websites stoped benchmarking at quality setings and turned the Nvidia drivers up to "high quality" to get a more accurate comparison.

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
It doesnt really matter what they say. Their opinion matters no more or less than end users. I know for a fact that Brent knows about it, and has for some time. When I first got my GTX, I posted about it, he responded telling to set my drivers to HQ, and LOD to clamp. On the default install of drivers (what they bench with) it can be very easy to see, depending on the game.

Its very annoying to some, and not to others. Thats the bottom line. Either way its there, and NV should at least attempt to fix it in Quality, not just High Quality.

Seems Brent is trying to skirt the issue by creating a distinction between shimmering and moire. IMO and many others they go hand-in-hand since moire is just one of the factors that contributes to shimmering.

 

[Ackmed]

I agree.

To be honest, if it wasnt for BF2, it wouldnt be an issue to me as much. I dont notice it as badly in other games, and its not as bad in other games I play. But the fact is, its very noticable to me in that game. More so on some maps. The grass, the ground, even windows shimmer, and its annoying. Its not going to make me stop playing BF2, but I sure wish NV would at least try to fix it. Give the users the option for zero optimizations. I hope ATi and NV both do this.

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I agree.

To be honest, if it wasnt for BF2, it wouldnt be an issue to me as much. I dont notice it as badly in other games, and its not as bad in other games I play. But the fact is, its very noticable to me in that game. More so on some maps. The grass, the ground, even windows shimmer, and its annoying. Its not going to make me stop playing BF2, but I sure wish NV would at least try to fix it. Give the users the option for zero optimizations. I hope ATi and NV both do this.

That's weird...I don't notice it at all in BF2. Do I need to turn textures to high enough detail to see it?

 

[VIAN]

I kind of forgot what we're arguing about, but I'm pretty sure the shimmering that was malfunctioning in the High Quality setting is gone. At least I haven't noticed it. Just noticed Bilinear transitions with AF in FEAR and I don't know who's fault that is? Although, I'm truely against having Quality as the default setting and having websites benchmark with Quality Image Settings, because I think the IQ is horrible when AF is enabled; without AF it's unnoticeable. I also don't like that ATI has shimmering, although better than Nvidia's default, Nvidia's High Quality is better than ATI's default, which is the highest level of filtering they offer. This is pathetic for both comanies, we should be struggling to get better filtering, not crappier filtering. Same thing with AF, I like the set that ATI took by bringing back good quality AF. I can only hope Nvidia follows as well. I also hope that ATI fixed their texture shimmering due to crappy filtering. I still remember those glittery textures in HL2. What crap.

Guys...

I really dont understand what the freaking big deal is. I've seen texture "shimmering" on my X800XL many many many times, BF2, HL2, Far Cry...

Both companies have it.

/thread

And of course that's OK with you. :roll:

 

[Eureka]

I see the shimmering, now what's the problem?

Norm

 

[VIAN]

The problem is that you see it. I don't want to see it. I know that they can make it better, but they are being asses and cheaping out for performance reasons. It has been better. Ever since the 6800/x800 series, they've done crap like this.

 

[Eureka]

If you ask me, you people are making a big deal out of a relatively small problem. They can make better, and if you want them to talk to the companies. Still, it don't see how shimmering makes it any less of a game, if you want a good graphics go make a picture and stare at it...

Norm

 

[Acanthus]

My only question would be who buys a $400-$600 graphics card and uses anything other than high quality?

 

[Eureka]

My question is who other than insanely rich/spoiled people would buy a $400-$600 graphics card?

Still, I turn on high settings with a 6600GT and I never notice any problems.

Norm

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: cevilgenius
If you ask me, you people are making a big deal out of a relatively small problem. They can make better, and if you want them to talk to the companies. Still, it don't see how shimmering makes it any less of a game, if you want a good graphics go make a picture and stare at it...

Norm

This is sort of what this thread is about. Not trying to deny or wish away the issue, just give people considering the cards the other side of the issue.

If you're someone like me, this doesn't matter at all.

My friend 5150Joker notices it a lot more.

No "right" answer other than "using high quality is your best bet if you notice it".

 

[kylebisme]

Originally posted by: cevilgenius
If you ask me, you people are making a big deal out of a relatively small problem. They can make better, and if you want them to talk to the companies. Still, it don't see how shimmering makes it any less of a game, if you want a good graphics go make a picture and stare at it...

Norm

The thing is we had better filtering back on the Gforce4ti and it has been going down hill since then. When paying more and more for faster and faster grpahics cards it seems reasonable to me to expect to at least get something at least keeps up with quality of what has long been avalable.