[HardOCP] GeForce Partner Program Impacts Consumer Choice

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Ancalagon44

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2010
3,274
202
106
Really the only solution to this is for AMD to compete better, which means better cards, better availability, better marketing. Internet rage won't change anything - 99.9% of people will buy the best card for them, not from what is ethically the nicest company. As a nerd I personally haven't bought a single apple product since they sued for square rectangles, and it doesn't seem to have hurt apple much.

In this case Nvidia is able to turn the screw so hard because AMD have no top tier cards - they simply don't compete and capitalism says you beat them when they are down not help them up. AMD is seen as a budget company and Nvidia is forcing AIB's to reinforce this by not allowing them to use the same branding on Nvidia and AMD cards.

The sad thing is AMD doesn't compete not because the world is horrible to them but mostly because they have been so badly run. That's where I have the biggest issue with supporting AMD - they are not a hard luck story, they had it and they lost it themselves - it's no one's fault but AMD's that their management/marketing/etc is terrible. Is it really my job as the consumer to not get my ideal gpu just to reward that failure?

If you watch AdoredTV's videos, you will see that in the past when AMD did in fact perform better, they still did not outsell Nvidia.

Back in the days of the 4870, AMD had the superior card, but it did not sell better than the GTX 260.

Lately, AMD has battled though. I hope they return to true competition next year with New Vega and Navi.
 

4K_shmoorK

Senior member
Jul 1, 2015
464
43
91
If you watch AdoredTV's videos, you will see that in the past when AMD did in fact perform better, they still did not outsell Nvidia.

Back in the days of the 4870, AMD had the superior card, but it did not sell better than the GTX 260.

Lately, AMD has battled though. I hope they return to true competition next year with New Vega and Navi.

I remember oggling 4870s and 280s in MaximumPC magazines. So crazy how hot cards of these generations got with their laughable coolers and ~300W power consumption. But I also remember nobody cared, such a jump in performance with these cards.

EDIT:

Also, with more evidence of this GPP program coming out I can see it IS indeed in effect in some form.

The scenario that really worries/depresses me is if AMD releases a really great card next generation and someone is unable to get a custom version with a top tier flagship cooler from AIBs because they're limited to NV cards.

Branding is one thing but if the same cooler and features aren't available at an equivalent performance level to NV branded coolers (power phases, pcb and bios tweaks, heatsink efficiency), that sucks for everyone.

It would holistically diminish Personal Computing from a hobbyist/enthusiast perspective to the obvious further narrowing of consumer choice in tech/computing. All the while frustrating both NV/AMD loyalists, potentially alienating more and more enthusiasts from the hobby and building all together when variety becomes a thing of the past.

When one company wins, no one does.
 
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Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
All this means is you can't use the same brand for AMD and Nvidia cards, it doesn't mean companies will stop selling AMD cards. It doesn't stop them making AMD cards with expensive coolers. All it really means is a gpu board maker needs to pick AMD or Nvidia for their premium card range. They can still have another range of cards for the other gpu company or pick AMD over Nvidia if they think that's better (AMD can offer incentives too, we can safely assume Nvidia is going to drive a hard deal and hence give partners a lower margin so AMD have room to work).

The big problem for AMD is if companies think it's just not worth the effort producing an AMD range, which is not so much down to the GPP but the lack of cards to sell. Think about it if you are a partner company - in the last year there were too few fury/vega cards available to sell to get the return on investment it took to design, distribute and ship the boards. Pretty well all midrange+ cards are selling to miners, and they just buy everything, so why spend money on marketing it? Going forward we have a huge used sell off waiting to happen (when miners upgrade) and no next gen cards for AMD coming.
 

4K_shmoorK

Senior member
Jul 1, 2015
464
43
91
The big problem for AMD is if companies think it's just not worth the effort producing an AMD range, which is not so much down to the GPP but the lack of cards to sell. Think about it if you are a partner company - in the last year there were too few fury/vega cards available to sell to get the return on investment it took to design, distribute and ship the boards.

This is definitely a less mentioned factor when it comes to the marketability of AMD GPUs. Vega, since RELEASE, has been plagued with low availability and inflated prices (mining definitely playing a part). Not to mention the absurd lag in supplying enough chips for AIB custom versions. If next gen AMD focuses on cranking out chips, they could potentially gobble back market share while people waiting in line to upgrade from their 1080 Ti to the low availability $800+ GTX 2080 only to play the same non-demanding games 20FPS faster. Gamers and enthusiasts could start to look towards redder pastures.

Gamers are BEGGING for affordable next-gen midrange. Perfect for high refresh 1080p gaming.
 

tajoh111

Senior member
Mar 28, 2005
304
320
136
If you watch AdoredTV's videos, you will see that in the past when AMD did in fact perform better, they still did not outsell Nvidia.

Back in the days of the 4870, AMD had the superior card, but it did not sell better than the GTX 260.

Lately, AMD has battled though. I hope they return to true competition next year with New Vega and Navi.

They didn't outsell Nvidia but they sold better overall than the years they were not or less competitive.

The thing is Nvidia was quick to drop prices and bring new cards to the market which made the price of Nvidia's cards price to performance pretty much in line with AMDs with cards like the gtx 260 core 216 and the gtx 275. Nvidia has a brand advantage that allows them to outsell the competition when things are close, that is without a question. But it's no reason for AMD to play the pity card because that will only end things in failure because it essentially means giving up.

Marketshare shifts don't happen overnight and if AMD continually made better cards with better stronger price to performance consistently like the gtx 4870 and initially 5870, they might be past the 50 percent marketshare point. AMD needs to build up it's brand value by consistently making good cards that beat Nvidia so it can be considered the premium brand. AMD was gaining marketshare during this period which mean't it's effort was increasing sales and revenue.

Achieving 45% marketshare during 2010 is a victory for AMD. It took better products to do it, but it showed AMD was making inroads towards profitability and marketshare vs the 30 percent marketshare during the worst part of the gtx 8800 generation.

Successful companies don't give up on a segment because they are not outselling the competition because their products are better for a couple lifecycles. They continue to build better products than the competition so their brand is built up and they will eventually outsell the competition when public perception shifts to favor them.

Giving up because your product don't outsell the competition is a weak excuse that will steer a company or person for that matter towards failure. Playing the pity card doesn't work with consumers and the narrative Adoredtv always trys to play for AMD. AMD graphic division was largely the most profitable part for the company for the last 7 years compared to the CPU division, so it wasn't like AMD was cutting off a malignant part of the company and should give up on it.

I remember oggling 4870s and 280s in MaximumPC magazines. So crazy how hot cards of these generations got with their laughable coolers and ~300W power consumption. But I also remember nobody cared, such a jump in performance with these cards.

EDIT:

Also, with more evidence of this GPP program coming out I can see it IS indeed in effect in some form.

The scenario that really worries/depresses me is if AMD releases a really great card next generation and someone is unable to get a custom version with a top tier flagship cooler from AIBs because they're limited to NV cards.

Branding is one thing but if the same cooler and features aren't available at an equivalent performance level to NV branded coolers (power phases, pcb and bios tweaks, heatsink efficiency), that sucks for everyone.

It would holistically diminish Personal Computing from a hobbyist/enthusiast perspective to the obvious further narrowing of consumer choice in tech/computing. All the while frustrating both NV/AMD loyalists, potentially alienating more and more enthusiasts from the hobby and building all together when variety becomes a thing of the past.

When one company wins, no one does.

GPP although a problem for AMD, is something that AMD will have to creatively because legally, Nvidia can do it because there is not enough in terms of bribery where Nvidia is preventing AIB from selling AMD products. Moves that target marketing are pretty loose. So constructively what can AMD do about it and what action can they take is something we should discuss?

I think the best thing AMD can do is create an attractive program for AIB's by highlighting the strength of their reference PCB and the weakness of Nvidia's.

AMD reference PCB are head and shoulders above Nvidia's consistently being able to handle 2 or 3 times the current. During the rx 480 generation, only a couple gaming cards were better than reference with the cards coming from sapphire, gigabyte and power color coming short and sometimes drastically.

I think AMD should be highlighting this fact. How?

If I was doing such a launch, I would pump as much current as possible into an AMD and Nvidia card and see which one would burst into flames first. Considering AMD power delivery system, it would undoubtedly win. Make a video of lots of Nvidia cards bursting into flames while AMD cards behaved normally to Tchaikovsky's 1812 overture and ask the hypothetical question, which card was built for gamers and overclockers?

AMD could call this advantage whatever prestige brand it wants, overclocking certified, elite spec, Radeon black certified. And sell the reference design as something special and still allow some customization by partners through the cooler.

While at the same time selling a barebones PCB which meets the standards of Nividia's reference design and sell it as the basic low cost model. This would demonstrate that the premium you pay for Nvidia is not really worth anything in terms of hardware quality.

What this would do is streamline the reference designs, cut cost for AIB for engineering, which would be better spent on marketing and centralize the partnership in marketing betweeen AIB's and partners so that partners have a very real reason to use AMD reference designs. That being AMD reference designs are top notch and have practical advantages over Nvidia ones. It also cast a negative light on Nvidia's cheap designs in a constructive matter because it highlights their own strengths while cast a negative light on their competition in a constructive way.
 
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Krteq

Senior member
May 22, 2015
993
672
136
Just a few thoughts in a context of recent events. I mean silent launch of MX 150 and GTX 1030 with lowered specs.

nV launched GeForce Partner Program to "bring a transparency to product lines" and help gamers to know what they’re buying...
NVIDIA said:
The GPU and software of a gaming PC make all the difference in a gamer’s experience. And together with our add-in card and system partners, we’re dedicated to building the best PC gaming platform bar-none – this is the GeForce promise.

The GeForce Partner Program is designed to ensure that gamers have full transparency into the GPU platform and software they’re being sold, and can confidently select products that carry the NVIDIA GeForce promise.
...and then GPP partners silently released these "cripled" cards with direct approval from nV and without any highly visible differentiation in box markings etc.

What the hell is really going on with this program?
 
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Krteq

Senior member
May 22, 2015
993
672
136
So, Bennett was right. nV really forced AiBs to "expel" AMD from well known brands :/

Well played nV, really nice "Godfather's" tactics - made them an offer they can't refuse
 

VirtualLarry

No Lifer
Aug 25, 2001
56,448
10,117
126
So, Bennett was right. nV really forced AiBs to "expel" AMD from well known brands :/

Well played nV, really nice "Godfather's" tactics - made them an offer they can't refuse
Yeah, good thing I sold my MSI GTX 1070 ti recently. I'd feel like a real [piece of work] owning any (current) NVidia products right about now.
 

Vaporizer

Member
Apr 4, 2015
137
30
66
Question is if there will be still Mainboards for AMD with ROG brand. And if so would they be allowed to plug in APU with integrated graphics?
 

Sable

Golden Member
Jan 7, 2006
1,127
99
91
https://videocardz.com/75783/nvidia-gpp-meet-asus-arez-radeon-series

Maybe the GPP included a clause that forced partners to misspell any word used on competition's GPUs?
And if ANY company had the weight behind them to possibly tell NV they weren't gonna go along with this, it was ASUS.

OBVIOUSLY this was all Asus idea in order to differentiate between the two suppliers they support. But one is for gaming and the other is for running 3D entertainment software.

Unless they're BOTH gaming brands. Are ASUS allowed to have TWO gaming brands? Could someone with some clout ask ASUS if they have TWO gaming brands. If ROG is a gaming brand, is AREZ also a gaming brand? I'm unsure of what to buy if I want to play a game and I only have a certain budget. Do ASUS recommend AREZ CARDS for gaming? If they don't could they please explain in detail why not?

Yes I know if I want the fastest then Nvidia. But is AREZ gaming? Is there an Nvidia AREZ card? Why not? All these questions.

(I find this all reprehensible. I'm smart enough to be able to understand what's going on but still. And If I buy a new card and I want the fastest it's gonna have to be Nvidia. I'll feel dirty, but I want the fastest. There's just no need for nvidia to do this. I know they're a business but christ)
 

Rezident

Senior member
Nov 30, 2009
283
5
81
Even by Nvidia's anti-consumer and anti-gamer standards, this is particularly shocking. It would be great if people stopped supporting this type of anti-consumer behaviour, but that does not seem likely. The brand loyalty in this market is legendary, as Nvidia knows all too well. Aside from top hardware, Nvidia is reknowned in marketing circles for their aggressive – and spectacularly successful – marketing exploits. Few would have believed they could have pushed gpu prices so high a few years back. Clearly marketing works on most people. We have no one to blame but ourselves for supporting – and rewarding - this reprehensible behaviour.

I do not support Nvidia any more but I have no doubt that most will continue blindly, and then wonder how things got so bad. Can you imagine what the gpu market will look like after another few years of this?
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
And if ANY company had the weight behind them to possibly tell NV they weren't gonna go along with this, it was ASUS.

I think the Asus CEO and JHH are mates so pretty likely Asus was going to take the GPP.

The important thing is Asus still sells AMD cards, it doesn't really matter what the branding is - who pays attention to that anyway? No one picks a brand first - they pick the card after looking at reviews and prices online, they will already know whether they want a 1060 or a 580. Then you just go through the available cards and find the one that best matches your desired quality/oc/noise/price/etc. The brand only really matters within that - i.e. you already know you are going to buy a 580, so you are just looking at different 580 brands and doesn't matter what the 1060 brand is because you aren't looking to buy a 1060.

Anyone buying a pre-build has no idea what brand of 1060 or 580 is in there, just that it has that card.
 

PhonakV30

Senior member
Oct 26, 2009
987
378
136
I think the Asus CEO and JHH are mates so pretty likely Asus was going to take the GPP.

The important thing is Asus still sells AMD cards, it doesn't really matter what the branding is - who pays attention to that anyway? No one picks a brand first - they pick the card after looking at reviews and prices online, they will already know whether they want a 1060 or a 580. Then you just go through the available cards and find the one that best matches your desired quality/oc/noise/price/etc. The brand only really matters within that - i.e. you already know you are going to buy a 580, so you are just looking at different 580 brands and doesn't matter what the 1060 brand is because you aren't looking to buy a 1060.

Anyone buying a pre-build has no idea what brand of 1060 or 580 is in there, just that it has that card.

You don't know how people are like you.probably 80% of people are less informed.
 
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richaron

Golden Member
Mar 27, 2012
1,357
329
136
I think the Asus CEO and JHH are mates so pretty likely Asus was going to take the GPP.

The important thing is Asus still sells AMD cards, it doesn't really matter what the branding is - who pays attention to that anyway? No one picks a brand first - they pick the card after looking at reviews and prices online, they will already know whether they want a 1060 or a 580. Then you just go through the available cards and find the one that best matches your desired quality/oc/noise/price/etc. The brand only really matters within that - i.e. you already know you are going to buy a 580, so you are just looking at different 580 brands and doesn't matter what the 1060 brand is because you aren't looking to buy a 1060.

Anyone buying a pre-build has no idea what brand of 1060 or 580 is in there, just that it has that card.
Yeah that sounds exactly like the sort of thinking which ignores the halo effect. Surely you've seen all the uninformed people come here knowing nVidia makes a 1080Ti, so has it's stuck in their head nV is faster. Then they will go out and buy a low end nV card over a mid range AMD because "nVidia is faster".

Mindshare is a thing, and nVidia is using extortion to control that as much as possible. Many people here can think objectively and make informed purchases, that's because people here spend a lot of time staying informed. But average people often fall for the "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" trap, and once they decide "X" branding has the best gaming products they will likely stick with "X" branding.
 

Veradun

Senior member
Jul 29, 2016
564
780
136
Yeah that sounds exactly like the sort of thinking which ignores the halo effect. Surely you've seen all the uninformed people come here knowing nVidia makes a 1080Ti, so has it's stuck in their head nV is faster. Then they will go out and buy a low end nV card over a mid range AMD because "nVidia is faster".

That's how they got away with that shitty GTX960
 

Dribble

Platinum Member
Aug 9, 2005
2,076
611
136
You don't know how people are like you.probably 80% of people are less informed.
If they are uninformed they'll have no idea what ROG or AREZ or any of these partner brands are so what does it matter.

Yeah that sounds exactly like the sort of thinking which ignores the halo effect. Surely you've seen all the uninformed people come here knowing nVidia makes a 1080Ti, so has it's stuck in their head nV is faster. Then they will go out and buy a low end nV card over a mid range AMD because "nVidia is faster".

Exactly as I said - they pick the gpu first. They have no idea what ROG or AREZ is, they decide they want an Nvidia 1060 because they heard Nvidia is premium and the fastest cards are made by Nvidia. Only after picking that might they do a tiny bit of research into which partner brand is better, but by then it doesn't matter that the 580 has a different brand because they are only looking at 1060's.
 
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ZipSpeed

Golden Member
Aug 13, 2007
1,302
169
106
You don't know how people are like you.probably 80% of people are less informed.

Agreed. My sister-in-law's husband is a diehard Sony fanboy. Need a new TV? Sony. Need a new sound bar? Sony. Gaming console? Sony. If Sony made clothes, cars and blow up dolls, he would probably buy them all. He doesn't care if there's better TVs or sound bars out there, it just has to be Sony because in his shallow, ignorant, and at times, arrogant head, he thinks it's best. In the computer world, I imagine Intel and Nvidia are "best" for a lot of the same reason why my sister-in-law's husband is religiously devoted to Sony.
 

HurleyBird

Platinum Member
Apr 22, 2003
2,725
1,342
136
GPP although a problem for AMD, is something that AMD will have to creatively because legally, Nvidia can do it because there is not enough in terms of bribery where Nvidia is preventing AIB from selling AMD products. Moves that target marketing are pretty loose. So constructively what can AMD do about it and what action can they take is something we should discuss?

IANAL, but legally it seems to be, at the very least, in a grey area, as are most anti-competitive practices. These cases tend to be somewhat subjective. And if it isn't found to be illegal in the US, it may be in the EU or another regions. We're definitely going to see a few lawsuits before all is said and done.
 

dlerious

Golden Member
Mar 4, 2004
1,815
734
136
If they are uninformed they'll have no idea what ROG or AREZ or any of these partner brands are so what does it matter.

Exactly as I said - they pick the gpu first. They have no idea what ROG or AREZ is, they decide they want an Nvidia 1060 because they heard Nvidia is premium and the fastest cards are made by Nvidia. Only after picking that might they do a tiny bit of research into which partner brand is better, but by then it doesn't matter that the 580 has a different brand because they are only looking at 1060's.
Then why would the Nvidia blog post on GPP contain the following two paragraphs?
==========================================
The GeForce Partner Program is designed to ensure that gamers have full transparency into the GPU platform and software they’re being sold, and can confidently select products that carry the NVIDIA GeForce promise.

This transparency is only possible when NVIDIA brands and partner brands are consistent. So the new program means that we’ll be promoting our GPP partner brands across the web, on social media, at events and more. And GPP partners will get early access to our latest innovations, and work closely with our engineering team to bring the newest technologies to gamers
===============================================
 

Ackmed

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2003
8,478
524
126
NV doing this is pretty pathetic. Its not like they haven't done shady stuff in the past. Such as paying trolls to post in these very forums.
 
Reactions: DarthKyrie and Feld

gorobei

Diamond Member
Jan 7, 2007
3,713
1,067
136
hardocp has a followup article. dell and hp are likely not joining gpp, lenovo uncertain.

basically the US based companies arent going to kowtow. [what self respecting ceo is going to let an outside company dictate his pr dept policies/plans.] which seems more relevant to the issue as its one thing to let nv control naming your cards, it's another thing to let them control naming your computers and laptop lines. it does seem weird that asus buckled so quickly given their size they could have said no with less consequences.

but it brings up an interesting thought: if hp/dell dont join and nv tries to reduce the cards they sell to them, the loss in nv revenue could be construed as hurting stock price and opening up a lawsuit from shareholders.
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,005
2,275
136
but it brings up an interesting thought: if hp/dell dont join and nv tries to reduce the cards they sell to them, the loss in nv revenue could be construed as hurting stock price and opening up a lawsuit from shareholders.
Doubt that would happen. They are not likely to reduce sale to non-GPP AIBs unless NV themselves were low on inventory/production. Then they can be choosy as to which AIBs get priority over others.
 
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