[HardOCP] GeForce Partner Program Impacts Consumer Choice

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zlatan

Senior member
Mar 15, 2011
580
291
136
Making ROG, Alienware, etc. Geforce exclusive it surely illegal, but partnering with the OEMs and AIBs to create new gaming brands is not.

The underlying problem is the platform. Intel is testing some very interesting projects nowadays. Even Kaby Lake-G is a test behind a working product. In the future they will release their own pGPU, and these will connect to the CPU with proprietary link. This is dangerous for Nvidia, because Intel can say "I will build just x4 PCIe link in the mobile CPUs, because it is enough for the SSDs, and that's all". Good luck connecting a dGPU to this platform. AMD want to do the same with their proprietary GMI link.
Now how can Nvidia sell their hardwares for these platforms? Creating an exclusive gaming brand will surely help. Even if they only able to connect the dGPU to x2 or x1 PCIe, the brand can sell the product.
 
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EXCellR8

Diamond Member
Sep 1, 2010
3,982
839
136
I'm not going to pretend to know what this is all about but how is this different than AMD's "Radeon Technology Group?"

The GeForce brand already exists, and is well-known by gamers, so making it exclusive to certain OEMs doesn't really change much, does it? I mean, a lot of consumers who want high end gaming products are going to build custom PC's and steer clear of off-the-shelf systems in favor of non-OE boards and increased compatibility anyway.

So, if strong-arming customers into buying only GeForce products installed in OEM systems is a thing that is going to happen--then why not just opt to not buy from that OEM?
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
Trying to keep an open mind about this, what if the gpp program had been created in reverse? In other words, instead of Nvidia telling Asus that if it makes Rog exclusive Asus will get benefits, what if Asus had gone to Nvidia and offered to make Rog exclusive in exchange for benefits?

Would that still be concerning?
 

nurturedhate

Golden Member
Aug 27, 2011
1,761
757
136
I'm not going to pretend to know what this is all about but how is this different than AMD's "Radeon Technology Group?"

The GeForce brand already exists, and is well-known by gamers, so making it exclusive to certain OEMs doesn't really change much, does it? I mean, a lot of consumers who want high end gaming products are going to build custom PC's and steer clear of off-the-shelf systems in favor of non-OE boards and increased compatibility anyway.

So, if strong-arming customers into buying only GeForce products installed in OEM systems is a thing that is going to happen--then why not just opt to not buy from that OEM?
What this reads as - take ASUS for example as they sell both AMD/Nvidia - only Nvidia products can be marketed as "gaming" products. ASUS can say this Nivida card is used to play games on while they can't say the same for the AMD card if they want the support from Nvidia.
 
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nurturedhate

Golden Member
Aug 27, 2011
1,761
757
136
Trying to keep an open mind about this, what if the gpp program had been created in reverse? In other words, instead of Nvidia telling Asus that if it makes Rog exclusive Asus will get benefits, what if Asus had gone to Nvidia and offered to make Rog exclusive in exchange for benefits?

Would that still be concerning?
That's really no different than what Evga and Sapphire do today. This reads as Nvidia saying either sell our products exclusively or we'll withhold support.
 

deathBOB

Senior member
Dec 2, 2007
566
228
116
high-effort engineering engagements -- early tech engagement -- launch partner status -- game bundling -- sales rebate programs -- social media and PR support -- marketing reports -- Marketing Development Funds (MDF).

Those sound like pretty normal activities which AMD surely also engages in. What are AMD’s terms for this kind of support? What are industry norms?
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,269
5,134
136
Those sound like pretty normal activities which AMD surely also engages in. What are AMD’s terms for this kind of support? What are industry norms?

The dodgy stuff is making the gaming brand exclusive to NVidia only, and the implied restriction of GPU allocations to partners who play along.
 
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Glo.

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2015
5,761
4,666
136
Making ROG, Alienware, etc. Geforce exclusive it surely illegal, but partnering with the OEMs and AIBs to create new gaming brands is not.

The underlying problem is the platform. Intel is testing some very interesting projects nowadays. Even Kaby Lake-G is a test behind a working product. In the future they will release their own pGPU, and these will connect to the CPU with proprietary link. This is dangerous for Nvidia, because Intel can say "I will build just x4 PCIe link in the mobile CPUs, because it is enough for the SSDs, and that's all". Good luck connecting a dGPU to this platform. AMD want to do the same with their proprietary GMI link.
Now how can Nvidia sell their hardwares for these platforms? Creating an exclusive gaming brand will surely help. Even if they only able to connect the dGPU to x2 or x1 PCIe, the brand can sell the product.
AMD may not even need a proprietary GMI link.

They just have to design powerful enough iGPU for APU, and lock it down to just few PCIe lanes, from the CPU - for example 8, and its game over in mobile world for Nvidia if both x86 CPU vendors will lock them out.
 
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Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
The dodgy stuff is making the gaming brand exclusive to NVidia only, and the implied restriction of GPU allocations to partners who play along.

The implied restriction on allocation is absolutely dodgy,, but is the first part really dodgy? Nvidia essentially offered to buy exclusive access to their Distributors gaming brands. Is that any worse than if their Distributors had offered to sell exclusive access to the gaming brand? Would you consider it a problem if, for example, Asus offered to sell exclusive access to their Rog brand?
 

NTMBK

Lifer
Nov 14, 2011
10,269
5,134
136
The implied restriction on allocation is absolutely dodgy,, but is the first part really dodgy? Nvidia essentially offered to buy exclusive access to their Distributors gaming brands. Is that any worse than if their Distributors had offered to sell exclusive access to the gaming brand? Would you consider it a problem if, for example, Asus offered to sell exclusive access to their Rog brand?

It's the combination of both. "Shut out AMD, or you'll get punished."
 

Samwell

Senior member
May 10, 2015
225
47
101
The implied restriction on allocation is absolutely dodgy,, but is the first part really dodgy? Nvidia essentially offered to buy exclusive access to their Distributors gaming brands. Is that any worse than if their Distributors had offered to sell exclusive access to the gaming brand? Would you consider it a problem if, for example, Asus offered to sell exclusive access to their Rog brand?

The allocation part is absolutely normal. Every company has premium partners, which get higher allocation or with which you make marketing efforts together. Sapphire get's better allocation than other AMD verndors, or if you sign the deal to sell vega+ryzen packages, then you get a higher allocation as only for vega. I also don't see it as a problem if the vendors start to make new Nv exclusive brands in cooperation, while keeping the others with amd. It's just dodgy if this leads to AIBs throwing out AMD of existing brands.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
It's the combination of both. "Shut out AMD, or you'll get punished."

We won't know if the or you'll be punished part is actually going to happen though (we all think it will, but we could be proven wrong).

And thinking on this more, let's say ASUS offered to sell exclusive rights in exchange for allocation preference of GPUs. Would that be different than Nvidia offering preference to GPP partners?

The more I think about it, the more I think the problem is with all exclusive arrangements (all those exclusive provider ads during professional sports games, exclusive console deals for video games, etc...) or none at all.

Maybe I need to find some court cases to see the explanation as to where and why the law draws the line on similar arrangements.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
It's just dodgy if this leads to AIBs throwing out AMD of existing brands.

Why? That wouldn't be any different than a car manufacturer that currently uses a variety of tire brands deciding it can make its car brand more competitive by announcing an agreement to exclusively use "Premium Brand" tires.
 

Samwell

Senior member
May 10, 2015
225
47
101
Why? That wouldn't be any different than a car manufacturer that currently uses a variety of tire brands deciding it can make its car brand more competitive by announcing an agreement to exclusively use "Premium Brand" tires.

In a market with many players like tires such a thing is ok. But with two players it's like paying the partner not to use the other one and this is in conflict with antitrust laws.
 

nurturedhate

Golden Member
Aug 27, 2011
1,761
757
136
Why? That wouldn't be any different than a car manufacturer that currently uses a variety of tire brands deciding it can make its car brand more competitive by announcing an agreement to exclusively use "Premium Brand" tires.
No. Based on the information we have this would be akin to Ford telling Goodyear they can only sell tires to Ford owners.
 
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thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
9,673
580
126
Why? That wouldn't be any different than a car manufacturer that currently uses a variety of tire brands deciding it can make its car brand more competitive by announcing an agreement to exclusively use "Premium Brand" tires.

No it's very much different due to the different dynamic of sourcing a component vs. a finished product, and also ignores the power differential induced if there is indeed withholding of product.

Imagine there's only Goodyear and Michelin.

If Ford goes "hey, we'll use Goodyear exclusively if you give us a rebate on how many we buy". This is usually OK, though it gets into anti-trust if products are sold substantially under market value, as already established by prior anti-trust rulings. Normally presenting the rebate request to all players can be ok.

If Goodyear goes "Hey, we want you to exclusively use Goodyear tires on your performance cars, and if you don't, we might not give you enough tires for your other models either" this can be a substantial problem as it attempts to punish purchasers of product if they do not assist Goodyear is suppressing competition. There is a large legal fuzzy void between incentivizing vs. punishing. Again though, in a tech market with few players, punishing downstream purchasers of product by with-holding product or other tactics has already been established as anti-competitive from the Intel / AMD lawsuits. The hinge will most likely be on whether or not NVIDIA made indications (implicit or not) that refusal to be exclusive would go beyond simple inventory rebates into punitive measures.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,425
8,388
126
What this reads as - take ASUS for example as they sell both AMD/Nvidia - only Nvidia products can be marketed as "gaming" products. ASUS can say this Nivida card is used to play games on while they can't say the same for the AMD card if they want the support from Nvidia.

as far as branding goes, from my very limited read of this, it's not the term "gaming" that can't be used on amd products, it's asus's existing RoG brand (assuming asus agrees to this, and it's pretty heavily incentivized to do so). no idea if asus is also prohibited from starting some another gaming brand for amd boards (i would guess that would also be the case otherwise why bother).
 

caswow

Senior member
Sep 18, 2013
525
136
116
as far as branding goes, from my very limited read of this, it's not the term "gaming" that can't be used on amd products, it's asus's existing RoG brand (assuming asus agrees to this, and it's pretty heavily incentivized to do so). no idea if asus is also prohibited from starting some another gaming brand for amd boards (i would guess that would also be the case otherwise why bother).

thats the thing. amd is the second player as of today. you really think they will create and market a new gaming brand for amd? hell no. that is one of the things nvidia wants to achieve if everything is remotely true.
 
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TheELF

Diamond Member
Dec 22, 2012
3,990
744
126
No it's very much different due to the different dynamic of sourcing a component vs. a finished product, and also ignores the power differential induced if there is indeed withholding of product.

Imagine there's only Goodyear and Michelin.

If Ford goes "hey, we'll use Goodyear exclusively if you give us a rebate on how many we buy". This is usually OK, though it gets into anti-trust if products are sold substantially under market value, as already established by prior anti-trust rulings. Normally presenting the rebate request to all players can be ok.

If Goodyear goes "Hey, we want you to exclusively use Goodyear tires on your performance cars, and if you don't, we might not give you enough tires for your other models either" this can be a substantial problem as it attempts to punish purchasers of product if they do not assist Goodyear is suppressing competition. There is a large legal fuzzy void between incentivizing vs. punishing. Again though, in a tech market with few players, punishing downstream purchasers of product by with-holding product or other tactics has already been established as anti-competitive from the Intel / AMD lawsuits. The hinge will most likely be on whether or not NVIDIA made indications (implicit or not) that refusal to be exclusive would go beyond simple inventory rebates into punitive measures.
It's only a problem because there is a monopoly in the gpu market already...if we had healthy competition amd would just do a counter offer or their own ad campaign but because amd is too weak we are supposed to believe that every other company should play with their hands tied behind their backs and hopping on one foot...

In your example ford would just go to michelin but in the PC market there is no other player, if the companies want help, ads and money (or in fact, just enough product for their business) they have to use nvidia.

punishing downstream purchasers of product by with-holding product or other tactics has already been established as anti-competitive from the Intel / AMD lawsuits.
Link or it didn't happen,most lawsuits were settled out of court so no legal ruling was issued so we do in fact do not know.
 

Cozarkian

Golden Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,352
95
91
In a market with many players like tires such a thing is ok. But with two players it's like paying the partner not to use the other one and this is in conflict with antitrust laws.

That's a fair point, but it still seems like there is a bit of an unfair outcome resulting from the fact that Nvidia is initiating the program rather than agreeing to a suggestion from its purchasers. The gaming computer market has a lot more competition than the GPU manufacturer market, so if ASUS went to Nvidia and said "Hey, we'll offer to make ROG Nvidia exclusive if you give us early access to GPUs and preferential allocation, and then Dell goes to Nvidia with the same deal for Alienware, etc..."

Also, where do you draw the line? If there were 10 GPU manufacturers each with 10% market share and Nvidia came up with a GPP program, which ultimately resulted in them grabbing 50% market share and put half of the other manufacturers out of business, would that be antitrust or just intelligent business planning? Granted the problem here might not be that the GPP program is okay, it might be that other exclusivity deals should not be okay.

No. Based on the information we have this would be akin to Ford telling Goodyear they can only sell tires to Ford owners.

How? The tire is incorporated into the car just like the GPU is incorporated into the computer. It would be like Goodyear going to Ford and offering them incentives to use Goodyear tires exclusively on Mustangs (or on F#50s).

No it's very much different due to the different dynamic of sourcing a component vs. a finished product, and also ignores the power differential induced if there is indeed withholding of product.

Imagine there's only Goodyear and Michelin.

If Ford goes "hey, we'll use Goodyear exclusively if you give us a rebate on how many we buy". This is usually OK, though it gets into anti-trust if products are sold substantially under market value, as already established by prior anti-trust rulings. Normally presenting the rebate request to all players can be ok.

If Goodyear goes "Hey, we want you to exclusively use Goodyear tires on your performance cars, and if you don't, we might not give you enough tires for your other models either" this can be a substantial problem as it attempts to punish purchasers of product if they do not assist Goodyear is suppressing competition. There is a large legal fuzzy void between incentivizing vs. punishing. Again though, in a tech market with few players, punishing downstream purchasers of product by with-holding product or other tactics has already been established as anti-competitive from the Intel / AMD lawsuits. The hinge will most likely be on whether or not NVIDIA made indications (implicit or not) that refusal to be exclusive would go beyond simple inventory rebates into punitive measures.

Okay, but when do incentives become punishment? If Nvidia had announced that GPP partners, in recognition of limited production capacity, will get preferential allocation of GPUs, why is that a punishment of non-GPP computer manufacturers rather than an incentive for GPP partners? (Granted, this isn't what happened here, because Nvidia hasn't admitted to preferential allocation, but I'm curious why it would be bad if they were upfront about it as a perk of the program).

I think the real driving force behind why this program seems dodgy is because we are all assuming that Nvidia actually has a nefarious purpose - that their true goal is to damage AMD rather than to improve the quality of products using its GPUs. That very well may be true, but I'm not sure this program is that bad if it isn't true (and whether it is true will be difficult to prove).
 

thecoolnessrune

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2005
9,673
580
126
It's only a problem because there is a monopoly in the gpu market already...if we had healthy competition amd would just do a counter offer or their own ad campaign but because amd is too weak we are supposed to believe that every other company should play with their hands tied behind their backs and hopping on one foot...

In your example ford would just go to michelin but in the PC market there is no other player, if the companies want help, ads and money (or in fact, just enough product for their business) they have to use nvidia.

I said in the near beginning of my post, "Imagine there's only Goodyear and Michelin." Yes, the fact that there is near monopoly is exactly the problem here. The rest of your section is irrelevant, as it's obviously your clearly biased opinion. Believe whatever you want there, as it's irrelevant to anything going on here.

Link or it didn't happen,most lawsuits were settled out of court so no legal ruling was issued so we do in fact do not know.

Multiple courts have upheld the EU's hefty fine for anti-competitive practices. A fine that Intel has already paid. On the latest (and last) appeal, it got moved back to a lower court to adjust the dollar amount. Stay tuned on that. A successful and paid application of a fine for anti-competitive practices occurred link, or not. If you'd like to see it yourself, use your Googlin' powers. I'm not interested particularly in dragging things up for someone who already shows clear bias.

Okay, but when do incentives become punishment? If Nvidia had announced that GPP partners, in recognition of limited production capacity, will get preferential allocation of GPUs, why is that a punishment of non-GPP computer manufacturers rather than an incentive for GPP partners? (Granted, this isn't what happened here, because Nvidia hasn't admitted to preferential allocation, but I'm curious why it would be bad if they were upfront about it as a perk of the program).

I think the real driving force behind why this program seems dodgy is because we are all assuming that Nvidia actually has a nefarious purpose - that their true goal is to damage AMD rather than to improve the quality of products using its GPUs. That very well may be true, but I'm not sure this program is that bad if it isn't true (and whether it is true will be difficult to prove).

While I appreciate your holistic point of view, I hope it's fairly obvious to you at this point that no matter what answer you get, it means literally zero on this forum vs. the quagmire that is anti-trust laws and anti-competitive law, especially on companies dealing on an international level. Unless you've got a lawyer on here already well-trained in anti-trust law, you aren't going to get any answer on this that has any solid authority.

On the surface, its a giant sliding scale, and that's why we have courts. Look at protected classes.

"I'm not selling you a cake. I just don't really feel like it." - Totally fine.
"I'm not selling you a cake. I don't serve people who buy AMD Cards." - Totally fine.
"I'm not selling you a cake. I don't serve men who wear cardigans." - Totally fine.
"I'm not selling you a cake. I don't serve gays." - Not fine.

The reason something happens is one of the major factors behind situations like this, and that's up for courts (or settlements) to decide.

"If you join our partner program, we'll give you $1,000." - Totally fine.
"If you join our partner program, we'll give you $1,000, and give you Engineering Time to help you develop systems, but the model you sell has to only use our GPU." - Probably fine.
"If you join our partner program, we'll give you $1,000, and give you Engineering Time to help you develop systems, but your whole gaming line can only use our GPUs." - Depending on market position this can be a tough position to take.
"If you join our partner program, we'll give you $1,000, and give you Engineering Time to help you develop systems, but your whole gaming line can only use our GPUs, and if you don't join, even though you have the same capability to buy GPUs as your competitors, we'll with hold GPU's from you." - If this is going on, that can be a problem.

Like I said, it's pretty much foregone that someone will likely be looking into this. Over the coming years, if NVIDIA chooses to pursue this course, the highly paid lawyers on each side and the associated court systems will likely decide the legality.
 
Last edited:

krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
5,956
1,595
136
Making ROG, Alienware, etc. Geforce exclusive it surely illegal, but partnering with the OEMs and AIBs to create new gaming brands is not.

The underlying problem is the platform. Intel is testing some very interesting projects nowadays. Even Kaby Lake-G is a test behind a working product. In the future they will release their own pGPU, and these will connect to the CPU with proprietary link. This is dangerous for Nvidia, because Intel can say "I will build just x4 PCIe link in the mobile CPUs, because it is enough for the SSDs, and that's all". Good luck connecting a dGPU to this platform. AMD want to do the same with their proprietary GMI link.
Now how can Nvidia sell their hardwares for these platforms? Creating an exclusive gaming brand will surely help. Even if they only able to connect the dGPU to x2 or x1 PCIe, the brand can sell the product.
Unfortunately its probably going this way and its sad. Because the consumers lose. Its the gsynch crap strategy applied to cpu.

Nv have the habbit of making enemies. Kyle got a very important point there. And this action is just another one in a long line adding to it. As a sidenote It also adds to explain why amd succeded in making vulcan to their standards as a 99% mantle copy. It shouldnt be possible to hijack like that.

I sure sure hope nv fails at this monopoly crap and that amd/intel dont shut down pci bandwith or make bad move with gmi link whatnot.

We need stronger political intervention. Aparently they dont want to compete. Pathetic when they are so rich.
 
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