Harvard announces free tuition to low income students

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: gopunk
i'd be more inclined to believe you if you had some kind of substantive support.

regardless of the details though, the student body would be a lot smaller. there's a lot of bright students at harvard, but i really doubt that most of them would be there if it weren't for their privileged backgrounds. and the students that would be able to overcome bad schools are probably the ones that can find their way to some good college, so you wouldn't really add much to the student body through that.

Yes, a privileged background plays a role, but not so much the formal education, but the way the kid is raised is the most important role.

You'd probably see a striking similarity of the way Harvard bound students are raised, not only with the upper upper classes, but also with the upper middle class ones. Even parents of Harvard bound students in the upper middle class category probably have a lot of in common with the upper upper class parents.

But if a student cannot overcome a bad school, they weren't Harvard material to begin with.

I think it depends on what you consider to be a "Harvard-quality student". If they are like the protagonists from Good Will Hunting and Finding Forrester, then yes, they could very well transcend their underprivileged environments. However, I have a feeling such people are few and far between.

well, a logical definition of harvard-quality might be gleaned from looking at the students at harvard. and the vast majority of them are not like the students in the movies.

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: gopunk
i go to school with a bunch of hug alums, you don't need to decribe the student body for me. how do you think students get to the point where they can teach themselves? i doubt very many people at harvard were born with that innate ability and/or would have developed it without the help of their good schooling.

If you don't know the nature of these sort of students as well as I do, you're probably not one of them, and I doubt you go to Harvard as your pre edited post suggested because you're not in the student directory.

If you think that most of the most intelligent people and students aren't that intelligent because of innate ability, you have some serious misconceptions about education in general.

I know first hand that formal education has nothing to do with ability and has very little affect on it.

 

[tfinch2]

I wish this was around when I was picking a school. I was recruited by Harvard to play basketball, but since they don't give athletic scholarships I wasn't able to afford it.

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: gopunk
you would see a striking similarity, but do you think there are many students who have the type of parent that would raise them to be a "best student" but still remain in a crappy school? that kind of parent would get their kid into a halfway-decent school asap... certainly there are exceptional cases, such as one where there are no decent schools in the entire region, but i would think very few parents in those areas would have the resources to invest the time needed, and if they did, they would have moved out of the area.

Students with that sort of ability who are in poor neighborhoods are few are far between yes, but not in good schools. But in America, truly bad schools are also few and far in between, despite what the media tries to scare you into believing.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: gopunk
i go to school with a bunch of hug alums, you don't need to decribe the student body for me. how do you think students get to the point where they can teach themselves? i doubt very many people at harvard were born with that innate ability and/or would have developed it without the help of their good schooling.

If you don't know the nature of these sort of students as well as I do, you're probably not one of them, and I doubt you go to Harvard as your pre edited post suggested because you're not in the student directory.

If you think that most of the most intelligent people and students aren't that intelligent because of innate ability, you have some serious misconceptions about education in general.

I know first hand that formal education has nothing to do with ability and has very little affect on it.

lol, you don't know my name, how would you know if i'm in the student dir? i'm not a ug, i'm in the law school... which, btw, plenty of hugs don't get into.

your first hand experience is just that... one person's limited perspective.

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
I think it depends on what you consider to be a "Harvard-quality student". If they are like the protagonists from Good Will Hunting and Finding Forrester, then yes, they could very well transcend their underprivileged environments. However, I have a feeling such people are few and far between.

I'm not talking about these semi-autistic so called "gifted" kids who can memorized a book in a week or something.

I'm simply referring to very intelligent (although not extremely) students who simply have a "learn at any cost" work ethic.

When I think of a Harvard quality student I think more of enthusiastic and unquenchable work ethic rather than an oddball genius. A combination of hard work (4.0 GPAs) and high test scores (1500+ SAT).

Teachers did not shape these caliber of students, I can assure you that. I was one myself and I knew many many others who were also. No one created us, we were a product of our own natural ability.

 

[blustori]

Originally posted by: tfinch2
I wish this was around when I was picking a school. I was recruited by Harvard to play basketball, but since they don't give athletic scholarships I wasn't able to afford it.

O RLY?

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: gopunk
lol, you don't know my name, how would you know if i'm in the student dir? i'm not a ug, i'm in the law school... which, btw, plenty of hugs don't get into.

your first hand experience is just that... one person's limited perspective.

Your name is not in your profile?

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: gopunk
you would see a striking similarity, but do you think there are many students who have the type of parent that would raise them to be a "best student" but still remain in a crappy school? that kind of parent would get their kid into a halfway-decent school asap... certainly there are exceptional cases, such as one where there are no decent schools in the entire region, but i would think very few parents in those areas would have the resources to invest the time needed, and if they did, they would have moved out of the area.

Students with that sort of ability who are in poor neighborhoods are few are far between yes, but not in good schools. But in America, truly bad schools are also few and far in between, despite what the media tries to scare you into believing.

well we could go on and on... i'll just say this... i think you should talk with people in education before making all these assertions.

 

[EvilYoda]

a 4.0 and perfect scores will hardly get you considered for Harvard. There's more to a student than the numbers on a transcript as most of their students were in their top 1%.

You're all right and you're all wrong.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: gopunk
lol, you don't know my name, how would you know if i'm in the student dir? i'm not a ug, i'm in the law school... which, btw, plenty of hugs don't get into.

your first hand experience is just that... one person's limited perspective.

Your name is not in your profile?

say haywood jablomi aloud... it's just a childish joke. i'm sitting in a gropius dorm as we speak.

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: EvilYoda
a 4.0 and perfect scores will hardly get you considered for Harvard. There's more to a student than the numbers on a transcript as most of their students were in their top 1%.

You're all right and you're all wrong.

Very few students have a 4.0 couple with very high test scores without other favorable qualities.

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: gopunk
say haywood jablomi aloud... it's just a childish joke. i'm sitting in a gropius dorm as we speak.

I don't get it. It says Virgin Islands, it could have been some ethnic name for all I know.

I heard about a guy named "Dick Weiner" once, who is also gay, anything is possible.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: Astaroth33
I think it depends on what you consider to be a "Harvard-quality student". If they are like the protagonists from Good Will Hunting and Finding Forrester, then yes, they could very well transcend their underprivileged environments. However, I have a feeling such people are few and far between.

I'm not talking about these semi-autistic so called "gifted" kids who can memorized a book in a week or something.

I'm simply referring to very intelligent (although not extremely) students who simply have a "learn at any cost" work ethic.

When I think of a Harvard quality student I think more of enthusiastic and unquenchable work ethic rather than an oddball genius. A combination of hard work (4.0 GPAs) and high test scores (1500+ SAT).

Teachers did not shape these caliber of students, I can assure you that. I was one myself and I knew many many others who were also. No one created us, we were a product of our own natural ability.

well, as someone who has pretty much gone to school with this caliber of student his whole life, i disagree. so there you have it, another first hand perspective.

 

[EvilYoda]

Originally posted by: gopunk

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: gopunk
lol, you don't know my name, how would you know if i'm in the student dir? i'm not a ug, i'm in the law school... which, btw, plenty of hugs don't get into.

your first hand experience is just that... one person's limited perspective.

Your name is not in your profile?

say haywood jablomi aloud... it's just a childish joke. i'm sitting in a gropius dorm as we speak.

LOL...that's great. simply hilarious. thanks for the laugh before bed

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: gopunk
say haywood jablomi aloud... it's just a childish joke. i'm sitting in a gropius dorm as we speak.

I don't get it. It says Virgin Islands, it could have been some ethnic name for all I know.

hey would ya blow me

i'm out, but as a parting word... if you think you know the students so well, do you think hugs overwhelmingly agree with you? i doubt it... presumably it isn't just that you know hugs way better than they do.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: gopunk
i go to school with a bunch of hug alums, you don't need to decribe the student body for me. how do you think students get to the point where they can teach themselves? i doubt very many people at harvard were born with that innate ability and/or would have developed it without the help of their good schooling.

If you don't know the nature of these sort of students as well as I do, you're probably not one of them, and I doubt you go to Harvard as your pre edited post suggested because you're not in the student directory.

If you think that most of the most intelligent people and students aren't that intelligent because of innate ability, you have some serious misconceptions about education in general.

I know first hand that formal education has nothing to do with ability and has very little affect on it.

You know the nature of these students? Somehow that seems unlikely from the way you've been posting.

I know the nature of these students. Almost none of them were born motivated like you claim. Intelligence actually has little to do with whether or not you get into Harvard or any good school for that matter. I know some very bright people (some brighter than the average Harvard student) who go to public universities.

Not only that, but Harvard undergraduate isn't such a big deal. A recent study conducted by a public university quizzed several graduating Harvard students. One of the questions was "What causes the seasons on Earth?" and less than 15% got it correct. Any intelligent student with no background in astronomy should be able to think about that question for 5 seconds and come up with the correct answer. I'm sure these kids know that the Earth is tilted relative to the Earth's orbit, so why did they get the question wrong?

I'm not saying that Harvard graduates are unintelligent. "Different strokes for different folks" is what I'm saying. I'm sure those students in the 85% can write some mean poetry or dominate some powerful businesses. I'm not even going to begin to pretend that I have those skills.

I am saying that Harvard is making an excellent gesture by offering free education to low-income families. However, you are not born a Harvard student like you may be assuming. Very little of your life is predetermined. A priviledged upbringing is much more likely to get you into a school like Harvard whether you like it or not.

 

[Eeezee]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: EvilYoda
a 4.0 and perfect scores will hardly get you considered for Harvard. There's more to a student than the numbers on a transcript as most of their students were in their top 1%.

You're all right and you're all wrong.

Very few students have a 4.0 couple with very high test scores without other favorable qualities.

Reality check!

A) The 4.0 GPA is not a measure of work ethic or intelligence. Any college admissions officer knows this. You certanily have to work hard to get a 4.0, but students working equally hard or harder can have lower GPAs.

B) Flukes and errors in standardized test scores occur all the time. A student deserving a lower score may obtain a higher score. Once again, this is not proof of intelligence or work ethic.

Many students do have good test scores coupled with a 4.0 GPA, and many of these students apply to Harvard or other shcools. Harvard will admit students with SAT scores of at least 1300 and a GPA of at least 3.5 because their admissions are based on a multitude of factors. Colleges aren't looking for academically perfect students that aren't going to add anything to the community or students who are just looking to get ahead in life at the cost of everything else. Universities are seeking to admit people, not GPA/test score machines.

 

[Excelsior]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: gopunk
i'd be more inclined to believe you if you had some kind of substantive support.

regardless of the details though, the student body would be a lot smaller. there's a lot of bright students at harvard, but i really doubt that most of them would be there if it weren't for their privileged backgrounds. and the students that would be able to overcome bad schools are probably the ones that can find their way to some good college, so you wouldn't really add much to the student body through that.

Yes, a privileged background plays a role, but not so much the formal education, but the way the kid is raised is the most important role.

You'd probably see a striking similarity of the way Harvard bound students are raised, not only with the upper upper classes, but also with the upper middle class ones. Even parents of Harvard bound students in the upper middle class category probably have a lot of in common with the upper upper class parents.

But if a student cannot overcome a bad school, they weren't Harvard material to begin with.

No. Bad schools often do not offer the classes necessary, extra-curriculars, clubs, sports/music, or the teachers necessary for a kid to fully excel. Some schools are that bad.

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: Eeezee
I am saying that Harvard is making an excellent gesture by offering free education to low-income families. However, you are not born a Harvard student like you may be assuming. Very little of your life is predetermined. A priviledged upbringing is much more likely to get you into a school like Harvard whether you like it or not.

There are very few things I'm sure of in this world, but one thing is that many people are born naturally very intelligent and hard working.

I believe very few things we do are not predetermined. I know this myself because of the very odd behavior and thoughts that I've lived with since I was very little. I've also spoken with other people like me and they come up with similar experiences.

I'm not very good at a lot of things and a lot of times I'm a douche bag, but in understanding people I've always been extremely intelligent. I understand people and why they do things better than most could ever imagine and I don't have any doubt in innate intelligence.

Upbring has a lot to do with it, but even the best education cannot produce a very very intelligent student, that is a fact.

People's brains are wired in certain ways. Some are born stubborn, some thrill seeking, some melodramatic, some chronically misbehaving, and some have brains that are wired with habitual thought processes that improve learning (this is the cause of so called "intelligence"). I've noticed that people who are intelligent think a certain way which improves learning and comprehension and I've noticed that most of them have always thought that way without preconditioning.

We're on a computer forum, correct? What do you want to wager that a large majority (not all, but most) of people here who consider themselves "computer enthusiasts" also tend to think in a more "logical" fashion? I'd wager my soul.

 

[Baked]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: Eeezee
Always? You overestimate the public education system.

The best of the best will crawl their way out of the hole, but good students that would have been Harvard-quality get dragged down every year. Some high schools don't even encourage their students to apply to college.

Only about a 1,500 students get into Harvard every year, those all are some of the best of the best.

"Good" students don't get into Harvard.

The very best students aren't taught, they're just guided. They almost teach themselves. The quality of the school is almost negligible to these sort of students and there are more of these students out there than you think.

Best of the best don't come from the worse schools in the worse schools district from the worse cities.:roll:

 

[AStar617]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: IAteYourMother
Unfortunately such kids don't go to a good enough school district to get into Harvard

:thumbsdown: Ban. The best students will always be good enough no matter what school they're in. Good students always overcome bad schools.

QFT. JLGatsby has been proving lately that he's not a troll... just misunderstood

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: Baked
Best of the best don't come from the worse schools in the worse schools district from the worse cities.:roll:

Thanks for pointing out the obvious and trying to refute an implication I never made.

I said if you put "the best of the best" in the worst schools, they will still manage to do very well and get into Harvard. The best students will still be the best students in the worst situations, some students are that good and there are more of these kind of students out there than people think.

But the majority of students come from good schools, simply because most of the best schools are found in upper middle class areas where genetics and enviroment come into play. Enviroment makes a good student, but only innate ability can make a great student.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: JLGatsby

Originally posted by: Eeezee
I am saying that Harvard is making an excellent gesture by offering free education to low-income families. However, you are not born a Harvard student like you may be assuming. Very little of your life is predetermined. A priviledged upbringing is much more likely to get you into a school like Harvard whether you like it or not.

There are very few things I'm sure of in this world, but one thing is that many people are born naturally very intelligent and hard working.

I believe very few things we do are not predetermined. I know this myself because of the very odd behavior and thoughts that I've lived with since I was very little. I've also spoken with other people like me and they come up with similar experiences.

I'm not very good at a lot of things and a lot of times I'm a douche bag, but in understanding people I've always been extremely intelligent. I understand people and why they do things better than most could ever imagine and I don't have any doubt in innate intelligence.

Upbring has a lot to do with it, but even the best education cannot produce a very very intelligent student, that is a fact.

People's brains are wired in certain ways. Some are born stubborn, some thrill seeking, some melodramatic, some chronically misbehaving, and some have brains that are wired with habitual thought processes that improve learning (this is the cause of so called "intelligence"). I've noticed that people who are intelligent think a certain way which improves learning and comprehension and I've noticed that most of them have always thought that way without preconditioning.

We're on a computer forum, correct? What do you want to wager that a large majority (not all, but most) of people here who consider themselves "computer enthusiasts" also tend to think in a more "logical" fashion? I'd wager my soul.

well since you're so good at understanding people, you must understand that people systematically overestimate the amount of control they have when they are successful. and since you're so smart, perhaps you know that the brain's wiring is not fixed at all. your wiring at this point is very different from when you were born.

schools alone are unlikely to produce an extremely intelligent student, but control for parenting and i think you'd find the results would be different. i know your initial post only referred to schools, but i really doubt there are many kids in bad schools whose parents are providing the home environment necessary.

 

[JLGatsby]

Originally posted by: gopunk
well since you're so good at understanding people, you must understand that people systematically overestimate the amount of control they have when they are successful.

schools alone are unlikely to produce an extremely intelligent student, but control for parenting and i think you'd find the results would be different. i know your initial post only referred to schools, but i really doubt there are many kids in bad schools whose parents are providing the home environment necessary.

As I said before, good parenting and good schooling will make a good student, but only innate ability will make a great student and the great students are in fact so "great" that they can do what the good student cannot, that is defeat most unfortunate enviroments. I have no doubt about that.