Has prayer ever worked for you?

[Mursilis]

What you suggest is that the future is knowable, but that God simply peeks at it on occasion. If that is the case, then it would seem free will is still impossible. You can't look in to the future to see that a pair of rolled dice will produce boxcars but then assert that the dice could have produced snake eyes. It's inconsistent.

How is that inconsistent? Throwing snake eyes with a pair of dice is certainly among the possible outcomes, right?

How are you defining free will in this context?

 

[Retro Rob]

"Outside of time" is as meaningless as "in the corner of a circle."

No, "the corner of a cirlce" is demonstrably UNTRUE...not "meaningless".

Besides, just because something is meaningless, that doesn't make it false.

 

[Retro Rob]

I'm not saying that everything I know is 100% original thought - what I am saying is that if you limit your mind by imposing limits on it, because it was written in some book from 2000 years ago, that you essentially are limiting yourself as a person.

By unlocking those limits, you will find that you have a greater potential in your brain than you had realized, but to get there you need to remove the roadblocks that you placed there as a child.

I don't understand the point you're trying to make, what was written in a "2000 year old book" that put "limits" on my mind?

In other words, how is reading the Bible putting limits on my mind?

I can see in your discussions that you possess intelligence, but you continue to run up against mental barriers that you yourself placed there, so you have to go through mental gymnastics to continue to operate within your current belief system. Remove the limits, let your mind be free, and you will discover greater joy and understanding than you previously thought possible.

Thanks.

I answer based on the kinds of questions asked. You can't me "why God allowed Adam and Eve to sin" or whatever and expect an easy answer to such a complicated question. You probably don't know this, but people have had to study the entire Bible to find that answer.

That's not mental gymnastics -- that's trying to answer it in terms you can understand.

That's like me asking you to "in one sentence, explain to me exactly how evolution works via natural selection". The "how" and "why" are what needs detailed explanation.

Secondly intelligence doesn't necessarily mean how much knowledge one possess...as you seemingly imply. It's about how you put that knowledge to use.

Sure, knowing that drinking and driving is illegal is knowledge...continuing to drive drunk shows lack of intelligence.

 

[JD50]

How is that inconsistent? Throwing snake eyes with a pair of dice is certainly among the possible outcomes, right?

How are you defining free will in this context?

Not if that outcome has already been decided.

 

[Paul98]

Not if that outcome has already been decided.

And yet through relativity there is no single "Now", What I consider to be happening now on earth isn't agreed upon throughout the universe. If you have two spaceships one moving away from earth quickly the other moving towards earth quickly and I am on earth to the spaceships what is happening "Now" on earth is my future or past depending on direction of travel.

 

[EagleKeeper]

"Outside of time" is as meaningless as "in the corner of a circle."

No, "the corner of a cirlce" is demonstrably UNTRUE...not "meaningless".

Besides, just because something is meaningless, that doesn't make it false.

Yet a circle itself is made up of points that are connected.
Because the points to not extend off to infinity at a constant angle (they look back) there must be some angle /corner to allow the starting point to intersect the ending point of the circle.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

How, exactly?

Really? You don't see the difference between creating something with a trajectory that you know with un-erring certainty and having high confidence about the probable behavior of an organism familiar to you?

Really?

A perfect marksman knows with un-erring certainty where his bullets will fly. Thus, if and when he hits a person, we blame the marksman, not the bullet.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

No, "the corner of a cirlce" is demonstrably UNTRUE...not "meaningless".

No, you don't understand. Only coherent statements can be true or false. An incoherent statement cannot be evaluated.

Besides, just because something is meaningless, that doesn't make it false.

You should not wade in deep waters if you do not know how to swim.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Yet a circle itself is made up of points that are connected.
Because the points to not extend off to infinity at a constant angle (they look back) there must be some angle /corner to allow the starting point to intersect the ending point of the circle.

Um, no. Sorry. What you're describing isn't a circle.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

How is that inconsistent?

Because the outcome was boxcars. We looked into the future and that's what it was. Do you think there's a reason to believe that it was different before we looked?

When you flip a coin and slap it on the back of your hand, you realize that the question of "heads or tails" has been decided, even though you haven't looked at the result yet, right? There is a result, and if you look and see heads, then you know it had been heads all along.

Throwing snake eyes with a pair of dice is certainly among the possible outcomes, right?

No. Please read what I have written again.

How are you defining free will in this context?

Having an undetermined future.

 

[Retro Rob]

A perfect marksman knows with un-erring certainty where his bullets will fly. Thus, if and when he hits a person, we blame the marksman, not the bullet.

A bullet cannot decide regarding where it will hit, whereas humans *can*...once you make a choice, you are responsible.

The point is, assuming God is real, you don't know whether or not he actively "looks" into the future, nor do you know "when" he does.

The only thing you would know is that he *can*. Just because you always can do something, doesn't mean you always *do* that something.

 

[Paul98]

A bullet cannot decide regarding where it will hit, whereas humans *can*...once you make a choice, you are responsible.

The point is, assuming God is real, you don't know whether or not he actively "looks" into the future, nor do you know "when" he does.

The only thing you would know is that he *can*. Just because you always can do something, doesn't mean you always *do* that something.

This line of thought only makes sense if god exists in the frame of reference of our spacetime. That this god asks someone to do something then after they do it talks to them again and not knowing before hand the outcome would also imply that this god lives in our frame of reference. This god would not be outside of spacetime because otherwise the before and after wouldn't make sense.

 

[JD50]

A bullet cannot decide regarding where it will hit, whereas humans *can*...once you make a choice, you are responsible.

The point is, assuming God is real, you don't know whether or not he actively "looks" into the future, nor do you know "when" he does.

The only thing you would know is that he *can*. Just because you always can do something, doesn't mean you always *do* that something.

If he *can* look into the future that means it's predetermined, so no we really don't have a choice. It's irrelevant how often he actually does look into the future.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

A bullet cannot decide regarding where it will hit, whereas humans *can*...once you make a choice, you are responsible.

No. You are assuming the conclusion without having proven it. If it is true that the future is determined, then any appearance of choice is merely an illusion.

EDIT: I will explain the analogy more thoroughly. God's act of creation is like that of a marksman firing a bullet. God "shot" all of the objects of the universe into being, each with its own trajectory in space and time. If we suppose that he has exhaustive and infallible knowledge of the future trajectories of all of those objects, then those objects are like the bullets of a perfect marksman. They go where God knows they will go, because that's where he "aimed" them.

In order for him to know, with perfect certainty, each object's future trajectory, then those objects will be unable to deviate from those trajectories. This holds for molecules and men. Consequently, God is as responsible for those trajectories as a perfect marksman is for the paths of his bullets.

The point is, assuming God is real, you don't know whether or not he actively "looks" into the future, nor do you know "when" he does.

Irrelevant. I don't believe God exists at all. I'm just pointing out that the beliefs that theists hold are inconsistent.

The only thing you would know is that he *can*. Just because you always can do something, doesn't mean you always *do* that something.

But what I explained is that this distinction doesn't matter.

 

[Juddog]

A bullet cannot decide regarding where it will hit, whereas humans *can*...once you make a choice, you are responsible.

The point is, assuming God is real, you don't know whether or not he actively "looks" into the future, nor do you know "when" he does.

The only thing you would know is that he *can*. Just because you always can do something, doesn't mean you always *do* that something.

Think of it this way.

Let's say you're drawing a picture. That picture has a bunch of dogs and cats, loping around exactly as you drew them. Do those dogs and cats have free will, or are they only doing what you drew them to do?

 

[Retro Rob]

Think of it this way.

Let's say you're drawing a picture. That picture has a bunch of dogs and cats, loping around exactly as you drew them. Do those dogs and cats have free will, or are they only doing what you drew them to do?

I understand this.

But the reason why we're missing each other is because you seem to be indicating that knowing the future is tantamount to manipulating the future -- those aren't the same, IMO.

If you draw a circle for the animals to walk around in, and that's only path available, then sure, they technically don't have free will, but they can still choose not to move at all...so in a sense, they still do have free will.

Say for instance that you ask me: "Who created the Universe". You know me, so you know my answer which would be "God". Does that mean that you caused (manipulated) me to give that answer? No. All it means that you knew what I'd say. I think there's a difference between causing something to happen, and simply being aware of it happening.

If I know that you're gonna do or say something, that doesn't mean I am causing that to happen. People often say God has a "plan". I don't believe that for a second.

The reason is that if a mass-shooting took place, then you can put that on God and not the perpetrator -- after all, he "planned" it. If a baby is born and dies with no kidneys, well, you can blame that on God because he "planned" it.

So that doesn't add up because the Bible indicates that God will punish "bad" people. But....how can he punish the "bad" people when he planned for them to be bad, and manipulated things for that to happen?

If you have children, how can you get upset at them for being murderes if you planned that for them all along, and even guided them to that way of life?

Makes.No.Sense.

 

[JD50]

You're terrible with analogies.

The concept is simple. If the future is known, it cannot be changed. That's really all there is to it.

 

[Retro Rob]

No. You are assuming the conclusion without having proven it. If it is true that the future is determined, then any appearance of choice is merely an illusion.

EDIT: I will explain the analogy more thoroughly. God's act of creation is like that of a marksman firing a bullet. God "shot" all of the objects of the universe into being, each with its own trajectory in space and time. If we suppose that he has exhaustive and infallible knowledge of the future trajectories of all of those objects, then those objects are like the bullets of a perfect marksman. They go where God knows they will go, because that's where he "aimed" them.

In order for him to know, with perfect certainty, each object's future trajectory, then those objects will be unable to deviate from those trajectories. This holds for molecules and men. Consequently, God is as responsible for those trajectories as a perfect marksman is for the paths of his bullets.

Irrelevant. I don't believe God exists at all. I'm just pointing out that the beliefs that theists hold are inconsistent.

But what I explained is that this distinction doesn't matter.

You use the word "suppose" in regards of how God uses his knowledge. This is the flaw, and means you're making a "true" statement while at the same time acknowledging that all you're doing is "speculating".

All you're doing is offering your opinion in factual language. You can indeed have your opinion, but not your own facts.

 

[Juddog]

I understand this.

But the reason why we're missing each other is because you seem to be indicating that knowing the future is tantamount to manipulating the future -- those aren't the same, IMO.

If you draw a circle for the animals to walk around in, and that's only path available, then sure, they technically don't have free will, but they can still choose not to move at all...so in a sense, they still do have free will.

Say for instance that you ask me: "Who created the Universe". You know me, so you know my answer which would be "God". Does that mean that you caused (manipulated) me to give that answer? No. All it means that you knew what I'd say. I think there's a difference between causing something to happen, and simply being aware of it happening.

If I know that you're gonna do or say something, that doesn't mean I am causing that to happen. People often say God has a "plan". I don't believe that for a second.

The reason is that if a mass-shooting took place, then you can put that on God and not the perpetrator -- after all, he "planned" it. If a baby is born and dies with no kidneys, well, you can blame that on God because he "planned" it.

So that doesn't add up because the Bible indicates that God will punish "bad" people. But....how can he punish the "bad" people when he planned for them to be bad, and manipulated things for that to happen?

If you have children, how can you get upset at them for being murderes if you planned that for them all along, and even guided them to that way of life?

Makes.No.Sense.

You are beginning to realize that the Bible makes no sense. Finally.

The logical approach is to build an idea from pure logic, then extend that logic to a construct to see if it fits the pattern of logic or not. What your mind is doing is seeing the pure logic construct, then looking at the Bible, and saying "ok the pure logic doesn't make sense, because it doesn't match the Bible".

What you should be doing is going the opposite direction. Create the logical structure and see if what's written in the bible makes logical sense or not. If the Bible is failing your logic test, then part of you realizes that something is amiss, but the other part of you that is founded on the teachings of the Bible is overriding your logic center and saying "this logic is wrong... because the Bible says so".

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

You use the word "suppose" in regards of how God uses his knowledge. This is the flaw, and means you're making a "true" statement while at the same time acknowledging that all you're doing is "speculating".

All you're doing is offering your opinion in factual language. You can indeed have your opinion, but not your own facts.

Good grief. Learn how reductio ad absurdum works.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

I understand this.

But the reason why we're missing each other is because you seem to be indicating that knowing the future is tantamount to manipulating the future -- those aren't the same, IMO.

When you create a universe while knowing its entire future inerrantly, you are effectively creating and fixing the entire future instantaneously. That's more than just "manipulating" it.

Say for instance that you ask me: "Who created the Universe". You know me, so you know my answer which would be "God". Does that mean that you caused (manipulated) me to give that answer? No. All it means that you knew what I'd say. I think there's a difference between causing something to happen, and simply being aware of it happening.

In your analogy, is Juddog the creator of the universe with inerrant foreknowledge? If not, you're totally ignoring the most critical factors.

If I know that you're gonna do or say something, that doesn't mean I am causing that to happen.

BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T CREATE THE UNIVERSE WITH THAT KNOWLEDGE.

How many times do you have to be reminded?

So that doesn't add up because the Bible indicates that God will punish "bad" people. But....how can he punish the "bad" people when he planned for them to be bad, and manipulated things for that to happen?

If you have children, how can you get upset at them for being murderes if you planned that for them all along, and even guided them to that way of life?

Makes.No.Sense.

You're right. It makes no sense. That's how we can be confident that this god character is not instantiated in reality.

 

[Retro Rob]

You are beginning to realize that the Bible makes no sense. Finally.

The logical approach is to build an idea from pure logic, then extend that logic to a construct to see if it fits the pattern of logic or not. What your mind is doing is seeing the pure logic construct, then looking at the Bible, and saying "ok the pure logic doesn't make sense, because it doesn't match the Bible".

What you should be doing is going the opposite direction. Create the logical structure and see if what's written in the bible makes logical sense or not. If the Bible is failing your logic test, then part of you realizes that something is amiss, but the other part of you that is founded on the teachings of the Bible is overriding your logic center and saying "this logic is wrong... because the Bible says so".

You have it backwards, sir... it's not the Bible that I was critisizing, its how the book has been taught.

What I was pointing out is the fallacy of God having a "plan" which cannot be reconciled in the Bible. If God did have a plan, then he planned for the human race to fail, created a buring "Hell" for us, then sent his Son down to die in order to remedy a situation he deliberately put in place! LOL.

That's stupid and inconsistent and religious. A wise man wouldn't even do something as needless as that, so I am beyond confident that God did not deliberately do something as heartless as that. If I come across something as nonsensical as that, then I don't blame the Bible -- I blame my limited understanding and KEEP READING to get the truth.

So before I go calling the Bible non-sense, I read it through and make sure I am not the one misunderstanding something.

I do have the utmost respect for the book and I personally believe I owe more to the book than a brief read-through. I think it requires study, free of bias either way.

 

[Retro Rob]

You're right. It makes no sense. That's how we can be confident that this god character is not instantiated in reality.

OK -- since you KNOW so freaking much, I'd like for you to show me, in the Bible, where God's intention was to create a race he KNEW would fail, and not only allowed it, but CAUSED it.

If you can't, I'd appreciate it if you just shut up.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

OK -- since you KNOW so freaking much, I'd like for you to show me, in the Bible, where God's intention was to create a race he KNEW would fail, and not only allowed it, but CAUSED it.

You're trying to move the goalposts because you don't have a rebuttal.

You have two choices:

1.) God created the universe knowing inerrantly what the future held for it. If that is the case, it is inescapable that he intentionally caused everything that happened in it.

2.) God either did not create the universe, or does not have inerrant foreknowledge.

If the Bible is inconsistent with either or both of those, that's the Bible's problem, not a problem with the reasoning.

If you can't, I'd appreciate it if you just shut up.

You're all class, Rob.

 

[Retro Rob]

You're trying to move the goalposts because you don't have a rebuttal.

You have two choices:

1.) God created the universe knowing inerrantly what the future held for it. If that is the case, it is inescapable that he intentionally caused everything that happened in it.

2.) God either did not create the universe, or does not have inerrant foreknowledge.

If the Bible is inconsistent with either or both of those, that's the Bible's problem, not a problem with the reasoning.


You're all class, Rob.

I'm asking you to prove your claim -- yet you keep "supposing".

If you're unwilling, or better yet, unable, then you're going back on ignore. This is the discussion club, and if you can't bring some solid evidence as requested, then just concede the argument, or simply admit "you don't know" because you don't.