The above is contradictory. On the one hand you claim that the plan for the universe is unchanging, but on the other hand you suggest prayers can change reality. If those prayers are already included in the plan, then nothing about reality is actually changing.Prayers has multiple purpose for a Christian. Christians believe that prayers will not change God's will, not one iota. God is unchanging and his will and plan for the universe is unchanging since before creation. However, that doesn't mean that praying won't change reality. Prayers are part of God's will and included in his plan.
It is the same god, the god of Abraham.I can guarantee you that God wasn't "granting their wish" to kill innocent people. At least, the God I worship doesn't allow that. Perhaps Allah does, but Jehovah God does not.
That god helped Moses destroy his enemies; I'd call that condoning killing. The terrorist pray to the god of Abraham, same as you. And unless you have divine knowledge, you cannot guarantee that god did not sanction the passengers deaths.There are certainly evil spirits that take the form of gods. And we choose who/what we worship. If they're worshipping a god that condones killing, then they're certainly not worshipping the Judeo-Christian God.
I don't have a say on what God can or cannot do. I can only point to the Bible that says what God condones and what He does not.
It is the same god, the god of Abraham.
That god helped Moses destroy his enemies; I'd call that condoning killing. The terrorist pray to the god of Abraham, same as you. And unless you have divine knowledge, you cannot guarantee that god did not sanction the passengers deaths.
If we are to believe God has a plan for everyone, his plan certainly included those people dying in such a way. He absolutely condoned it.
Just remember, he created a pit of eternal hellfire and brimstone where you soul will burn forever if you don't succumb to his vanity and only worship him; but he loves you.
And if that is the case, then there is no free will, only the illusion of it.The above is contradictory. On the one hand you claim that the plan for the universe is unchanging, but on the other hand you suggest prayers can change reality. If those prayers are already included in the plan, then nothing about reality is actually changing.
You're right! :thumbsup:And if that is the case, then there is no free will, only the illusion of it.
The above is contradictory.
Prayer changes reality, shaping it according to God's will.On the one hand you claim that the plan for the universe is unchanging, but on the other hand you suggest prayers can change reality.
Wrong logic. Plan is not same as reality.If those prayers are already included in the plan, then nothing about reality is actually changing.
No, they are not.
Prayer changes reality, shaping it according to God's will.
Wrong logic. Plan is not same as reality.
Assertions are not arguments.No, they are not.
Question begging.Prayer changes reality, shaping it according to God's will.
Plan is identical to reality for an omnipotent being. It is incoherent to suggest the will or intention of an omnipotent being does not obtain.Wrong logic. Plan is not same as reality.
Plan is identical to reality for an omnipotent being. It is incoherent to suggest the will or intention of an omnipotent being does not obtain.
Nope. You're wrong.
I am right.
My condolences for the death of your beloved aunt and the inevitable corruption of your thread. Prayer has never really worked for me, sometimes I get what I pray for and sometimes not. But I try hard to start all prayers with "If it be Your will" and not pray for myself but for others. Otherwise it's like a dog praying that its human will drop what it's eating, not able to conceive that what it's eating might be chocolate and therefore it's dropping not a good thing. And the only time G-d ever spoke to me was when I needed bitch-slapping, not when I was asking for something.If so, what kind of prayer &/or what religion?
My aunt died this morning after a year of colon cancer.
I grew up in a very religious family (actually I'd call it a cult). People have been praying for my aunt for the entire time she's been sick. Lots of people, the entire Mennonite community in several countries have been praying for her.
Would've been nice if something good happened, but it didn't. I'd gladly keep on praying if I knew that somewhere, sometime, something positive had ever resulted from prayer.
Hoping for positive responses. Bye. Leaving soon for funeral.
Beautiful and profound, Moonie. Brought a tear to my eye. I think we should look at G-d not as some all-powerful being in the sky who can do something for us if we only believe hard enough, but rather as an intrinsic part of us that can give us strength to do what we can and accept and endure what we cannot change.My dear sweet soul, I hear in your words your own prayer, a prayer for an answer to your doubts about prayer, a seeking of the positive in a universe that ends for all of us in death.
I cannot answer your prayer but only tell you of my feelings about this same dilemma:
I used to pray that God would show me that he existed and He never did until the moment when the last of my faith was extinguished, when I surrendered to the hopelessness I felt knowing that He does not exist for me but that my own will, my own desire for the good couldn't in hopelessness be taken from me, that the love I sought out there in some King of the Universe was all right there inside of me.
It was possible then for me to understand things differently than I did before, this for example:
Our Father, which art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come.
Thy will be done in earth,
As it is in heaven.
The Kingdom of Heaven is here for the person who prays that his will is the Will of God and that what he prays for is what God wills.
Everything is attitude and I believe the perfect attitude can be had by those who have no prayers for the self but pray that the Will of God is done on earth as it is in heaven. To experience such surrender and trust is to love. I wish you much love from someone who believes that the Love of God finds its way into the world from inside you, that love is God's Will.
Hmm. This thread argues that actually answering the OP's question is not how this game is played, but congratulations on your prayers being answered.to the original question:
Yes, I am no longer depressed and Yes, it worked for my parents, they are no longer drug addicts.
Thanks for asking.
The only way to have conflict with an omniscient being is for plural omniscient beings with conflicting goals, and limited ability to 'do' things. This is by definition a removal of omnipotence.Plan is identical to reality for an omnipotent being. It is incoherent to suggest the will or intention of an omnipotent being does not obtain.
The only way to have conflict with an omniscient being is for plural omniscient beings with conflicting goals, and limited ability to 'do' things. This is by definition a removal of omnipotence.
That said, if for God doing and thinking are the same, and God thought about our creation (and thus created us) but wanted to re-think the situation without evil in the world, God would then remove our existence by removing evil. So (and this is the argument of Paul) evil in the world that God cannot erase without erasing you and me (and everyone else) is the 'anguish' of the 'birthing pains' of a greater universe where we exist without evil.
You are clearly right. But do you think this holds if creation and for-knowing are the same thing?If he didn't know there would be evil when he created us, then he is not all knowing. If he can't get rid of the evil in the world without getting rid of us, then he's not omnipotent.
If he didn't know there would be evil when he created us, then he is not all knowing. If he can't get rid of the evil in the world without getting rid of us, then he's not omnipotent.
Prayer helps you focus your mind on what is really important in life. Its rarely ever god that answers me so much as myself that answers. Its a moment of reflection.
Let me explain prayer as it applies to Christians. Hopefully you will understand how prayers work in the life of Christians.
Prayers has multiple purpose for a Christian. Christians believe that prayers will not change God's will, not one iota. God is unchanging and his will and plan for the universe is unchanging since before creation. However, that doesn't mean that praying won't change reality. Prayers are part of God's will and included in his plan.
For humans, one of prayer's function is to bring our will closer to God's will. Prayer also reminds the Christian to communicate with God. It helps us remember that our God is a personal God, who sent his Son Jesus to be our Messiah, our savior.
We pray to let God know of our needs, because it's his will that we do so. God already know it, but he wants us to talk to him and tell him about our problems. The bible states that every believer will pray and should pray constantly.
Prayer helps you focus your mind on what is really important in life. Its rarely ever god that answers me so much as myself that answers. Its a moment of reflection.