Has prayer ever worked for you?

[smackababy]

How is prayer any different than meditation or simply having a beer while watching a sporting event?

Because when I am watching a sporting even, I am yelling at the quarterback to throw it to my fantasy player. >_>

 

[ThinClient]

because when i am watching a sporting even, i am yelling at the quarterback to throw it to my fantasy player. >_>

AND YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY PRAYING THAT HE DOES, AMIRITE?!

lc

 

[smackababy]

AND YOU'RE OBVIOUSLY PRAYING THAT HE DOES, AMIRITE?!

lc

I actually pray for the opposite of what I want to happen. That way, either I get what I want or my prayer is answered. It is really win-win.

 

[ThinClient]

loooool

 

[werepossum]

I actually pray for the opposite of what I want to happen. That way, either I get what I want or my prayer is answered. It is really win-win.

LOL Smart!

 

[sm625]

Yes, prayer has worked. And, no, it obviously doesnt always work. Being explicitly anti-organized religion, I usually just pray to the Creator, or to the universe as if it were itself god. I dont think it matters, the energy flows in the same way regardless.

 

[dphantom]

Yes prayer has and does work. Certainly some will say that event or occurrence would have happened regardless. But I believe, have faith, that in some specific instances, God has worked His way and answered a prayer.

 

[Juddog]

Yes prayer has and does work. Certainly some will say that event or occurrence would have happened regardless. But I believe, have faith, that in some specific instances, God has worked His way and answered a prayer.

So you're smarter than God then? Basically you're saying his "divine plan" is bunk, and that your needs overruled the needs of the universe. Sounds like your ego is too big to fit in that tiny brain.

 

[spittledip]

If you have a connection with God, then prayer always works b/c all prayer is simply communication with God. Not getting what you prayed for is not an instance of prayer "not working," it is an instance of you not getting what you wanted out of prayer. That is how all things with God are when it comes to our expectations of Him.

 

[ThinClient]

Yes prayer has and does work. Certainly some will say that event or occurrence would have happened regardless. But I believe, have faith, that in some specific instances, God has worked His way and answered a prayer.

The human brain has evolved to see patterns where there are none. Prayer doesn't work but your brain is fooling you into thinking it does and you are not taking the proper steps to scrutinize the evidence supporting the conclusion.

You stop at the conclusion because that's the conclusion that you WANT to achieve.

 

[ThinClient]

If you have a connection with God, then prayer always works b/c all prayer is simply communication with God. Not getting what you prayed for is not an instance of prayer "not working," it is an instance of you not getting what you wanted out of prayer. That is how all things with God are when it comes to our expectations of Him.

Prayer is nothing more than scribbling down something on a napkin and dumping it into a suggestions box. You don't see who empties the box, you have no idea if the suggestions box is even EVER emptied, you don't know where the suggestions go, who reads them, how the system works in any way, and life just keeps on truckin around you regardless of what you put into the suggestions box. If something occurs that matches what someone put into the suggestion box, there is absolutely no way to correlate the suggestion box entry with the result even though they match.

Prayer is an absolute joke. It's a self-fulfilling-prophecy-esque waste of time.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

It's a self-fulfilling-prophecy-esque waste of time.

Self-fulfilling prophesies, as the name implies, fulfill themselves. As such they are by definition not a waste of time when they are a about a good outcome.

The human brain has evolved to see patterns where there are none. Prayer doesn't work but your brain is fooling you into thinking it does and you are not taking the proper steps to scrutinize the evidence supporting the conclusion.

You stop at the conclusion because that's the conclusion that you WANT to achieve.

The human brain has evolved to see past patterns where they are irrelevant to the individual. Prayer works but your brain is fooling you into thinking it doesn't and you are not taking the proper steps to scrutinize the evidence supporting the conclusion.

You stop at the conclusion because that's the conclusion that you WANT to achieve.

 

[ThinClient]

Self-fulfilling prophesies, as the name implies, fulfill themselves. As such they are by definition not a waste of time when they are a about a good outcome.

Self-fulfilling prophecies are fraudulent prophecies that are ridiculously broad stroked and loosely described so that any myriad of outcomes can SEEM to fulfill the prophecy.

It's the snake oil salesman all over again.

The human brain has evolved to see past patterns where they are irrelevant to the individual. Prayer works but your brain is fooling you into thinking it doesn't and you are not taking the proper steps to scrutinize the evidence supporting the conclusion.

You stop at the conclusion because that's the conclusion that you WANT to achieve.

Fair enough.

Prove that prayer works.

...checkmate.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Self-fulfilling prophecies are<wrong definition removed>

Here's the real definition:

"A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback between belief and behavior."

source:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

...checkmate.

Ah, I see we've had this discussion before. Your casual insults failed to address anything regarding the meditative power of prayer then, and they do nothing to answer such a criticism of your totalizing of the in-potency of prayer now.

Prayer works to help people, here are some academic sources:

Kissman, K., & Maurer, L. (2002). East meets West: Therapeutic aspects of spirituality in health, mental health and addiction recovery. International Social Work, 45, 35-43.

Covington, S., Griffin, D., & Dauer, R. (2011). Helping Men Recover: A Program for Treating Addiction: Special Edition for Use in the Criminal Justice System. Jossey-Bass.

Kus, R. J. (1995). Prayer and meditation in addiction recovery. Journal of Chemical Dependency Treatment, 5(2), 101-115.

Miller, W. R., Forcehimes, A., O'Leary, M. J., & LaNoue, M. D. (2008). Spiritual direction in addiction treatment: Two clinical trials. Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, 35(4), 434-442


I have scientific observations of social phenomenon that show that prayer works: your argument is invalid

ps

I am NOT denying that there are alternative explanations for why prayer works at times; but to say it doesn't is intellectually dishonest.

 

[ThinClient]

I have scientific observations of social phenomenon that show that prayer works: your argument is invalid

No, you don't. Or, rather, I have no reason to believe that you're not lying. You have anthropomorphic projection and wishful thinking.

To say that prayer works is falsely drawing the conclusion that the prayer is the causation for the event.

This is a leap of faith and is irrational.

Correlation and causation are not the same thing.

You fail.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

No, you don't. Or, rather, I have no reason to believe that you're not lying.

I provided citations; You can know I'm not lying by following the citations. Anyone in a reasonable university will be able to get past almost all pay walls and I've never met a journal author that has refused to email out his or her article.

To say that prayer works is falsely drawing the conclusion that the prayer is the causation for the event.

It clearly is causal, as while:

Correlation and causation are not the same thing.
.

A longitudinal design also shows the same outcomes:

Lambert, N. M., Fincham, F. D., Marks, L. D., & Stillman, T. F. (2010). Invocations and intoxication: does prayer decrease alcohol consumption?. Psychology of addictive behaviors, 24(2), 209.


Alternative explanations for why prayer works is an entirely different question. But there is almost no scientific doubt that prayer does in fact work for some things.

If you claim to be rational then you must follow the scientific evidence, even if you don't like where it leads you.

 

[ThinClient]

WHAT evidence? Wishful thinking and anthropomorphic projection and delusion are not evidence.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

^ The scientific articles I presented that provide high-probability evidence in support of the alternative hypothesis: that prayer works for some things.

Kissman, K., & Maurer, L. (2002). East meets West: Therapeutic aspects of spirituality in health, mental health and addiction recovery. International Social Work, 45, 35-43.

Covington, S., Griffin, D., & Dauer, R. (2011). Helping Men Recover: A Program for Treating Addiction: Special Edition for Use in the Criminal Justice System. Jossey-Bass.

Kus, R. J. (1995). Prayer and meditation in addiction recovery. Journal of Chemical Dependency Treatment, 5(2), 101-115.

Miller, W. R., Forcehimes, A., O'Leary, M. J., & LaNoue, M. D. (2008). Spiritual direction in addiction treatment: Two clinical trials. Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, 35(4), 434-442

Lambert, N. M., Fincham, F. D., Marks, L. D., & Stillman, T. F. (2010). Invocations and intoxication: does prayer decrease alcohol consumption?. Psychology of addictive behaviors, 24(2), 209.

^ this one is longitudinal, thus countering your argument that the others are simply correlational.

 

[ThinClient]

^ The scientific articles I presented that provide high-probability evidence in support of the alternative hypothesis: that prayer works for some things.

Kissman, K., & Maurer, L. (2002). East meets West: Therapeutic aspects of spirituality in health, mental health and addiction recovery. International Social Work, 45, 35-43.

Covington, S., Griffin, D., & Dauer, R. (2011). Helping Men Recover: A Program for Treating Addiction: Special Edition for Use in the Criminal Justice System. Jossey-Bass.

Kus, R. J. (1995). Prayer and meditation in addiction recovery. Journal of Chemical Dependency Treatment, 5(2), 101-115.

Miller, W. R., Forcehimes, A., O'Leary, M. J., & LaNoue, M. D. (2008). Spiritual direction in addiction treatment: Two clinical trials. Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, 35(4), 434-442

Lambert, N. M., Fincham, F. D., Marks, L. D., & Stillman, T. F. (2010). Invocations and intoxication: does prayer decrease alcohol consumption?. Psychology of addictive behaviors, 24(2), 209.

^ this one is longitudinal, thus countering your argument that the others are simply correlational.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gISFAWaXIwg

 

[Dr. Zaus]

A link to a you-tube web page has nothing to do with the evidence or the argument: the description doesn't even match the video! This is NOT a counter point.

The argument that prayer doesn't work for anything is invalid, here is some of the evidence that the scientific community has found that prayer can and does work. This is scientific evidence:


"The scientific articles I presented that provide high-probability evidence in support of the alternative hypothesis: that prayer works for some things.

Kissman, K., & Maurer, L. (2002). East meets West: Therapeutic aspects of spirituality in health, mental health and addiction recovery. International Social Work, 45, 35-43.

Covington, S., Griffin, D., & Dauer, R. (2011). Helping Men Recover: A Program for Treating Addiction: Special Edition for Use in the Criminal Justice System. Jossey-Bass.

Kus, R. J. (1995). Prayer and meditation in addiction recovery. Journal of Chemical Dependency Treatment, 5(2), 101-115.

Miller, W. R., Forcehimes, A., O'Leary, M. J., & LaNoue, M. D. (2008). Spiritual direction in addiction treatment: Two clinical trials. Journal of Substance Abuse Treatment, 35(4), 434-442

Lambert, N. M., Fincham, F. D., Marks, L. D., & Stillman, T. F. (2010). Invocations and intoxication: does prayer decrease alcohol consumption?. Psychology of addictive behaviors, 24(2), 209.

^ this one is longitudinal, thus countering your argument that the others are simply correlational."


Your counter argument might as well be a bear on a unicycle with the text "lol no".

 

[spittledip]

Prayer is nothing more than scribbling down something on a napkin and dumping it into a suggestions box. You don't see who empties the box, you have no idea if the suggestions box is even EVER emptied, you don't know where the suggestions go, who reads them, how the system works in any way, and life just keeps on truckin around you regardless of what you put into the suggestions box. If something occurs that matches what someone put into the suggestion box, there is absolutely no way to correlate the suggestion box entry with the result even though they match.

Prayer is an absolute joke. It's a self-fulfilling-prophecy-esque waste of time.

You have proven my point, or rather supported my statement. Prayer is not about asking for things.

 

[ThinClient]

To be clear, we're talking about prayer affecting the world in a miraculous way, right? Not just some form of may-myself-feel-better method, right? An actual result that's beyond making the prayer feel better?

How is prayer any different than meditation? How is prayer NOT wishful thinking otherwise?

 

[ThinClient]

You have proven my point, or rather supported my statement. Prayer is not about asking for things.

Dear Jesus bless this food?

wtf does that actually mean?

Keep me safe while I walk this dark city park at night?

Idiot, you deserve to get jumped but just because you don't get jumped doesn't mean that Jebus was watching over you.

Dear Jesus, help me pay my rent!

Jesus isn't earning you a paycheck, YOU are.

Dear Jesus, help me be strong through this tough time in life.

Oh freaking please.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

To be clear, we're talking about prayer affecting the world in a miraculous way, right? Not just some form of may-myself-feel-better method, right? An actual result that's beyond making the prayer feel better?

How is prayer any different than meditation? How is prayer NOT wishful thinking otherwise?

OK, now we can get somewhere. To be clear: I was not denying alternative explanations for the scientific findings in support of the efficacy of prayer in some cases; as I said 10 posts ago.

For meditation to work the meditating person would have to believe that it will work, just as with prayer. If you wish to dismiss empirical findings of the efficacy of faith you will be scientifically groundless. That faith* is a core component of human functionality is the most robust finding in all of social psychology.

*self-efficacy, and priming (of which the fundamental attribution error is a kind)
**'wishful thinking' is the #1 predictor of personal outcomes.

Dear Jesus bless this food?

wtf does that actually mean?

Means my food, my disgusting prison food, tasted like the best stuff on earth.

Keep me safe while I walk this dark city park at night?

Idiot, you deserve to get jumped but just because you don't get jumped doesn't mean that Jebus was watching over you.

It means that you don't lose the little bit more of your life that you would have on stress hormones in response to a situation you would prefer not be part of anyway.

Dear Jesus, help me pay my rent!

Jesus isn't earning you a paycheck, YOU are.

And yet the community of believers may well come to help, be it by finding rent or finding you a job.

Dear Jesus, help me be strong through this tough time in life.

Oh freaking please.

And the evidence I provided is that this person does, in fact, gain strength; at least in resisting addiction.


All of these are positive things for people.

Why are you so against how other people live their lives?

 

[ThinClient]

Means my food, my disgusting prison food, tasted like the best stuff on earth.

Bullshit. Your brain is just playing tricks on you or you're lying to yourself. Awful food is only awful because of your perception. A change in your perception doesn't mean that prayer is somehow magically to blame when you can achieve the same result using any of a myriad of other techniques.

It means that you don't lose the little bit more of your life that you would have on stress hormones in response to a situation you would prefer not be part of anyway.

And for people who aren't stressed? Prayer doesn't have any more magical power than meditation or just being a strong person without a need for stress relief, or any other explanation. Prayer isn't responsible for anything. It's the effort to calm yourself down using whatever route you care to take that's responsible for your stress relief.

And yet the community of believers may well come to help, be it by finding rent or finding you a job.

So do family, friends, neighbors, acquaintances, and lending institutions. So freakin what?

And the evidence I provided is that this person does, in fact, gain strength; at least in resisting addiction.

Perhaps, but not because of prayer; because of the simple effort they made. They could have used many other routes to achieve the same goal. Prayer has no power than what the prayer lends to it (read: there's nothing supernatural about it and there's no additional power or magic from using it instead of another method).

All of these are positive things for people.

Why are you so against how other people live their lives?

I'd be content if they were praying to no one. The fact that they're involved with a religion that preaches world domination through indoctrination makes me hate it and want to destroy it. Christianity, Islam, Judaism are all evil for reasons we can get into in another thread.