Has prayer ever worked for you?

[Dr. Zaus]

So when all of your life experiences tell you "i'm a major fuck up" how do you pull yourself out of that ditch? Many do so by believing in something greater than themselves; so again I say: All of these are positive things for people.

Why are you so against how other people live their lives?

If "world domination" occurs because, in an open sharing of ideas and experiences, people realize the benefit of a particular faith: then why are you so upset about that "world domination"?

You're right though, go into it in another thread; but instead of attacking folks of faith, why not first express how you got to where you are vis a vis faith. That way we can share an understanding of how you got to where you are instead of starting with fists-swinging. We're all the hero of our own story, so tell your story so we can see your perspective and how you came to where you are.

 

[ThinClient]

This one first: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2LehsA1dk (4:41 and later)

This one next, then apply to Christianity / Islam in similar fashion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpK8ji1tADg

 

[ThinClient]

My story is irrelevant. Religion and religious people are dangerous and I will be malcontent until I have achieved a lifetime of open public fight against it and them or until it is wiped off the face of this planet.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

So you've broken down again. Instead of replying you're just posting meaningless videos and ranting.

The answer to the OP's question is well established scientifically: for some things prayer works.

 

[ThinClient]

So you've broken down again. Instead of replying you're just posting meaningless videos and ranting.

The answer to the OP's question is well established scientifically: for some things prayer works.

This reply says that you didn't bother watching and contemplating the two videos I linked.

Perhaps if you put more effort into listening to what people answer when you ask them a question, they may be willing to read what you type.

If you're not going to bother even watching what I've taken the time to find for you to make sure that the message is conveyed well, why should I bother reading your posts?

Edit: I even went back and made the post more specific, easier for you.

 

[spittledip]

To be clear, we're talking about prayer affecting the world in a miraculous way, right? Not just some form of may-myself-feel-better method, right? An actual result that's beyond making the prayer feel better?

How is prayer any different than meditation? How is prayer NOT wishful thinking otherwise?

No... prayer is not about results primarily, at least not in how you are describing it. Prayer is about communication with God. Communication is a foundation of relationship. So, ultimately prayer is about engaging in a relationship with God. This is not to say that God doesn't answer "requests" in a way that is a "yes" from time to time. However, treating God like some genie is not really what prayer is about.

Meditation tends to focus inward on self. Prayer is focused outward on God.

Edit: This makes prayer hard in a way, and Christianity in general b/c a primary component of Christianity is self-denial and obedience and faith that often flies in the face of what you might want or hope or what feels comfortable.

 

[ThinClient]

No... prayer is not about results primarily, at least not in how you are describing it. Prayer is about communication with God. Communication is a foundation of relationship. So, ultimately prayer is about engaging in a relationship with God. This is not to say that God doesn't answer "requests" in a way that is a "yes" from time to time. However, treating God like some genie is not really what prayer is about.

Meditation tends to focus inward on self. Prayer is focused outward on God.

Edit: This makes prayer hard in a way, and Christianity in general b/c a primary component of Christianity is self-denial and obedience and faith that often flies in the face of what you might want or hope or what feels comfortable.

I'm sorry, communication with whom? With someone who doesn't exist?

Your foundation is flawed. Like I said, prayer is nonsense.

 

[ThinClient]

Meditation isn't necessarily about one thing. It doesn't have to be internal. It's about focus on a subject and calming yourself. You can "pray" while you meditate. You aren't restricted to emptying your mind and achieving budhist zen when you meditate, but that's what close-minded uninformed Christians like to think because it fits their agenda.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

This reply says that you didn't bother watching and contemplating the two videos I linked.

Perhaps if you put more effort into listening to what people answer when you ask them a question, they may be willing to read what you type.

If you're not going to bother even watching what I've taken the time to find for you to make sure that the message is conveyed well, why should I bother reading your posts?

Edit: I even went back and made the post more specific, easier for you.

I've got multi-hour long videos to counter your videos, but I"m not throwing them at you like they are an argument.

How about you make a short, scope limited, point that we can discuss.

 

[ThinClient]

The short, scope limited point is made in the first video, including a time stamp to begin at, resulting in the shortest, clearest, most concise method with which to paint my opinion.

If you're going to watch any of either of those, at least watch that.

I'm watching a 1 hour+ debate at the moment. I would be happy to pause it to watch something similar if you have one or several to offer.

 

[spittledip]

I'm sorry, communication with whom? With someone who doesn't exist?

Your foundation is flawed. Like I said, prayer is nonsense.

Then I humbly suggest that you are in the wrong thread.

 

[spittledip]

Meditation isn't necessarily about one thing. It doesn't have to be internal. It's about focus on a subject and calming yourself. You can "pray" while you meditate. You aren't restricted to emptying your mind and achieving budhist zen when you meditate, but that's what close-minded uninformed Christians like to think because it fits their agenda.

Mediation is always about the person doing it. It is inward-focused.

 

[ThinClient]

Then I humbly suggest that you are in the wrong thread.

Nope, I'm in the correct thread. After all, what's the point of prayer if not praying to your god? There's no point in saying "prayer works" when there's no one to pray to or no power to pray to.

You can't have one sentiment without the other.

 

[ThinClient]

Mediation is always about the person doing it. It is inward-focused.

Wrong. That's a very narrow-minded view and is grossly incorrect.

Even so, by your own inept definition of it, since prayer does not affect the physical world beyond settling the stresses of the person praying, it would be child's play to conclude that prayer is for nothing other than calming the person doing the praying. What better way to accomplish the same task without invoking the supernatural or positive claims coupled with zero evidence than with meditation?

 

[Dr. Zaus]

There's no point in saying "prayer works" when there's no one to pray to or no power to pray to.

This is disproved by the good point that Hitchens made in your first video; that God and faith are used to exploit and subjugate people (ps &t=#m#s is how you set a time-stamp in youtube)

If you say that faith is worthless for prayer and personal advancement then you must admit that it is also worthless for controlling people, because its not 'real'.

Since 'reality' is a function of what matters to people I think we can both agree that God is 'real' and therefor prayer is prayer to a 'real' entity (as per the science presented). Otherwise, your objection to God falls apart, as anything negative created by faith is also not 'real'.

For good or evil God is as real as money, love, nations, or anything else that matters in people's lives.

Simple questions: Is real evil raping a baby? If not then why do I care about your opinion regarding good vs. bad? If so then upon what basis do you call evil real?

I'd like an answer in your own words; your own interpretation.

 

[ThinClient]

How does a manipulator getting a manipulatee to conform or work or become an agent of if prayer is the catalyst? I don't understand that.

"I'm going to take over this ghetto ... by people praying to god!"

I'd agree that god is real only insofar as a powerless construct in the delusional mind of the believer and no further.

Even if that's the case, money and love have real actual physical real-world objects that can be measured. They ARE real. The concept of nations and borders are intangible ideas represented or reinforced with real world objects like statues of gods but the thing itself -the nation, the border, the god- don't actually exist. Man MUST resort to using other objects to display the idea.

I'd call evil real when you see a beautiful innocent baby born and then someone going HOW BEAUTIFUL! QUICK, GIVE ME A SHARP STONE SO THAT I MAY HACK AT HIS GENITALS BECAUSE GOD TOLD ME TO. That is evil. Why do we have to keep talking about baby rape? It's considerably unsettling. Can we use another example please?

 

[spittledip]

Nope, I'm in the correct thread. After all, what's the point of prayer if not praying to your god? There's no point in saying "prayer works" when there's no one to pray to or no power to pray to.

You can't have one sentiment without the other.

So when a person meditates, their mind reaches into the minds of other beings (i.e. they are communicating with other beings through meditation)?

 

[spittledip]

Nope, I'm in the correct thread. After all, what's the point of prayer if not praying to your god? There's no point in saying "prayer works" when there's no one to pray to or no power to pray to.

You can't have one sentiment without the other.

You don't see the irony of a person posting in a thread, and posting so "heartily" I might add, about a topic that they don't even believe in? You are pretty heavily invested in something that doesn't exist for you.

 

[ThinClient]

So when a person meditates, their mind reaches into the minds of other beings (i.e. they are communicating with other beings through meditation)?

For delusional people, this could be exactly what occurs.

Are you claiming that this is what occurs during prayer?

 

[ThinClient]

You don't see the irony of a person posting in a thread, and posting so "heartily" I might add, about a topic that they don't even believe in? You are pretty heavily invested in something that doesn't exist for you.

No, I don't see the irony. I'm not pretending to argue with a god that doesn't exist. I'm arguing with delusional fanatics making baseless positive claims and refusing to offer even a shred of evidence to support their zealous hysteria.

 

[spittledip]

For delusional people, this could be exactly what occurs.

Are you claiming that this is what occurs during prayer?

This is what I am saying that mediation is NOT and exactly what I was saying all along. So we agree in this difference between meditation and prayer.

 

[spittledip]

No, I don't see the irony. I'm not pretending to argue with a god that doesn't exist. I'm arguing with delusional fanatics making baseless positive claims and refusing to offer even a shred of evidence to support their zealous hysteria.

Oh well

 

[ThinClient]

This is what I am saying that mediation is NOT and exactly what I was saying all along. So we agree in this difference between meditation and prayer.

No, now wait a minute. Are you claiming that prayer allows minds to somehow connect in a metaphysical way?

Honestly, if calming the subject is the only thing that prayer actually does, what's the difference between prayer and meditation? I'm not talking transcendental meditation, but meditation in general since, you know, there's more than just one kind of meditation.

 

[OverVolt]

Since 'reality' is a function of what matters to people

Yup

 

[ThinClient]

Yup

"reality" is not a dog telling the Son of Sam to kill people. Reality may be perceived differently, but is a constant and is not the product of mental exercises. Reality is pure truth.