Has prayer ever worked for you?

[Dr. Zaus]

They're constantly linking them. Must have missed it somehow. Many of them are deists and not theists, and therefore wouldn't be praying. All of them are meaningless appeals to authority. edit: oh, last 10 years. Doesn't seem particularly relevant though. It's just as bad as atheists saying that scientists in general aren't religious as if it means anything.

Billy was equivocating in his sloppy insults about the "weak state if mind" of those that pray; I was looking for any explanation other than thoughtless identity formation via insult: none has been offered.

A plan is a formalization of will,

and CT nails it.

 

[Moonbeam]

PowerEngineer: I started by conceding DixyCrat's point that positive thinking can have beneficial results. You can argue that with DixyCrat if you disagree.

M: This isn't an argument for me. I see what I think are errors in how you present this to yourself that cause you to see things that aren't there. You are worried about believing in things that are false leading to more negative than positive things but that is not a real problem to me because what you call false beliefs are false in your opinion. Praying to a God that doesn't exist is common. The God you don't believe in and a lot of people do, isn't the God that really exists but it doesn't matter because the whatever God really is is real. That's why prayer works. It can reset the will with improved attitude. Deep insight into the nature of life and human beings makes possible inspiration and that makes miracles easy. People with a positive attitude can do things that can't be done in any other way. I just wanted to tell you.

PE: If you intend to argue that acting on mistaken beliefs leads to good results in more than a very small percentage of such cases, then you're welcome to do so.

M: I don't want to argue that. I want to tell you that you are stuck on that point because the way you present it to yourself has nothing to do with what I am saying. You see an issue where there isn't one

PE: Attitude doesn't change reality. I'm pretty sure that your attitude toward jumping out of an airplane without a parachute or trying to stop a train by standing in front of it will not change the outcome. I suppose you're right in saying that I can't be absolutely sure until I try it, but I prefer to let you put your attitude to either one of those tests first.

M: Of course attitude changes reality. Negative attitude creates an attitude that doesn't exist for a person with a positive reality. You are talking about physical facts like positive attitude won't save you if you fall out of a plane. But if you feel you deserve to die and you're sick and you pray and get the feeling God wants you to live, you actually may. A positive attitude changes the chemistry of the brain and we all know there is a brain body connection. You simply insist on throwing your doubt in the supernatural into everything as if I were stuck on that kind of thinking. You get so irate about people believing in stuff you don't that you blind yourself to other things. You are rolling around a bolder that isn't causing me any problems. Relax.

Perhaps because this is a thread about prayer (presumably to a supernatural being of some sort).

Exactly, with the supernatural being part of it only useful to folk who believe it. What you want to argue is because you think the belief is wrong the effect can't be real. Well it can't for you, unfortunately because you are blinded by the fact that you're hopelessly literal. You sort of have that awkward engineer thing going on regarding emotion.

PE: It's my turn to be not so sure. Personal experience and personal feelings are not completely trustworthy. If they were, then we'd have to believe all those people who claim to have been abducted by alien.

M: Right but if some poor sad soul suffers neck and shoulder pain because he goes through life thinking he's going to remember being beaten as a child and some alien puts a warding devise in his tooth that creates an invisible and impenetrable barrier and he believes it so deeply he relaxes and his neck pain goes away, are you going to tell him he's crazy? Don't you think you might just be able to have such a negative attitude toward placebos they might not work for you. God is an ideal and with the right king of belief one can become one's ideal. This is why, I think, my dearly beloved Mulla Nasruden always says, Oh my Beloved, wherever I look it appears to be Thou. There is only the Unity of Love when the eye with which you see God is the same eye with which He sees you. Love is a pray, an attitude, an intention, a plan or will that can be practiced.

I knew a simple Catholic woman who prayed all the time and would take action to help others in the simplest of things before I could even see a need. God was there is that woman because she had no self to keep Him away. All she saw was the needs of others.





Maybe it'd make more sense to you if the entire paragraph were read as a whole instead of being parsed into individual sentences.



LOL Pretty condescending "attitude".



<sigh>

Our brains are what set humans apart from other living things, and should be considered god's greatest gift to man (if you are so inclined to believe). Shutting our intellects off reduces us to animals, and would be a rejection of god's gift to you (again if you are so inclined to believe).[/QUOTE]

 

[Moonbeam]

PowerEngineer: I started by conceding DixyCrat's point that positive thinking can have beneficial results. You can argue that with DixyCrat if you disagree.

M: This isn't an argument for me. I see what I think are errors in how you present this to yourself that cause you to see things that aren't there. You are worried about believing in things that are false leading to more negative than positive things but that is not a real problem to me because what you call false beliefs are false in your opinion. Praying to a God that doesn't exist is common. The God you don't believe in and a lot of people do, isn't the God that really exists but it doesn't matter because the whatever God really is is real. That's why prayer works. It can reset the will with improved attitude. Deep insight into the nature of life and human beings makes possible inspiration and that makes miracles easy. People with a positive attitude can do things that can't be done in any other way. I just wanted to tell you.

PE: If you intend to argue that acting on mistaken beliefs leads to good results in more than a very small percentage of such cases, then you're welcome to do so.

M: I don't want to argue that. I want to tell you that you are stuck on that point because the way you present it to yourself has nothing to do with what I am saying. You see an issue where there isn't one

PE: Attitude doesn't change reality. I'm pretty sure that your attitude toward jumping out of an airplane without a parachute or trying to stop a train by standing in front of it will not change the outcome. I suppose you're right in saying that I can't be absolutely sure until I try it, but I prefer to let you put your attitude to either one of those tests first.

M: Of course attitude changes reality. Negative attitude creates an attitude that doesn't exist for a person with a positive reality. You are talking about physical facts like positive attitude won't save you if you fall out of a plane. But if you feel you deserve to die and you're sick and you pray and get the feeling God wants you to live, you actually may. A positive attitude changes the chemistry of the brain and we all know there is a brain body connection. You simply insist on throwing your doubt in the supernatural into everything as if I were stuck on that kind of thinking. You get so irate about people believing in stuff you don't that you blind yourself to other things. You are rolling around a bolder that isn't causing me any problems. Relax.

Perhaps because this is a thread about prayer (presumably to a supernatural being of some sort).

Exactly, with the supernatural being part of it only useful to folk who believe it. What you want to argue is because you think the belief is wrong the effect can't be real. Well it can't for you, unfortunately because you are blinded by the fact that you're hopelessly literal. You sort of have that awkward engineer thing going on regarding emotion.

PE: It's my turn to be not so sure. Personal experience and personal feelings are not completely trustworthy. If they were, then we'd have to believe all those people who claim to have been abducted by alien.

M: Right but if some poor sad soul suffers neck and shoulder pain because he goes through life thinking he's going to remember being beaten as a child and some alien puts a warding devise in his tooth that creates an invisible and impenetrable barrier and he believes it so deeply he relaxes and his neck pain goes away, are you going to tell him he's crazy? Don't you think you might just be able to have such a negative attitude toward placebos they might not work for you. God is an ideal and with the right king of belief one can become one's ideal. This is why, I think, my dearly beloved Mulla Nasruden always says, Oh my Beloved, wherever I look it appears to be Thou. There is only the Unity of Love when the eye with which you see God is the same eye with which He sees you. Love is a pray, an attitude, an intention, a plan or will that can be practiced.

I knew a simple Catholic woman who prayed all the time and would take action to help others in the simplest of things before I could even see a need. God was there is that woman because she had no self to keep Him away. All she saw was the needs of others.

PE: Maybe it'd make more sense to you if the entire paragraph were read as a whole instead of being parsed into individual sentences.

M: I am simply telling you that I don't call making sense what you call making sense and that is what I am trying to explain.

PE: LOL Pretty condescending "attitude".

M: If this is an argument to you and you don't like to lose one and you feel I am saying you lost an argument and that makes you feel bad and by feeling bad you also feel humiliated and you think that was my intention then I can see why you might call that condescending.

PE:<sigh>

Our brains are what set humans apart from other living things, and should be considered god's greatest gift to man (if you are so inclined to believe). Shutting our intellects off reduces us to animals, and would be a rejection of god's gift to you (again if you are so inclined to believe).

M: I would welcome an ability to shut my brain off if, when I use it, I invent all sorts of ideas that divert me from seeing what is real.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

My story is irrelevant. Religion and religious people are dangerous and I will be malcontent until I have achieved a lifetime of open public fight against it and them or until it is wiped off the face of this planet.

Based on your posts, you are a dangerous psychopath bent on a lifetime of hate and destruction of others. It is pointless to reason with you because you can only believe in your delusional version of reality.

Personal insults are out of bounds here - as you have been told before.
admin allisolm

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I sometimes get the feeling that Christians believe blatantly contradictory things because it provides them with a sense of mysticism, hearkening the attributes of some zen koans or sutras of the eastern religions. I think more often than not, however, these Christian contradictions are plain and simple inconsistencies in their belief structure, indicative of its likely falsehood.

God as Man is mysticism, no doubt.

That some people just don't think about how un-thinkable this bit of mysticism is gives rise to that second part of your statement.

Philosophically Christianity offers a sense of being in the world filled purposeful care.

Max Scheler was a (maybe the?) christian phenomenologist and was repressed by the Nazis; his work is just now seeing translation. He developed a concept of the potential of the "human being as a loving, philosophical being [that] is not motivated to know by a sense of a lack, as is the case of eros, but rather motivated by the abundance and surfeit of the meaning of the world "

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/scheler

Good stuff, IMHO.

 

[Pray To Jesus]

You appear unable to recognize the arguments you are presented. I will attempt to re-state the argument in a simpler form, although I don't know if that is realistically possible.


Indeed they are, for the reason given. A plan is a formalization of will, and an omnipotent being's will is never thwarted or impeded. That which God plans becomes reality, necessarily.


How would that demonstrate anything?


Does it?


Like abortions?

You continue to make contradictory claims. Particularly, your most recent claims contradict your earlier claim that prayers change reality. If in fact reality is predicated on God's plan -- which you have claimed is unchanging -- then it is impossible for prayers -- which are part of reality -- to change reality. The prayers and their "answers" were planned already.

I sometimes get the feeling that Christians believe blatantly contradictory things because it provides them with a sense of mysticism, hearkening the attributes of some zen koans or sutras of the eastern religions. I think more often than not, however, these Christian contradictions are plain and simple inconsistencies in their belief structure, indicative of its likely falsehood.

Keep on lying to yourself about your intelligence and reasoning prowess if that's what it takes to make you feel happy.

Too bad for you that you lack the capacity to understand complex concepts. I will attempt to discuss the issue at your simplistic level of understanding and reading comprehension.

Based on your post, plan is not identical to reality. It's obvious from the vocabulary usage that the two are different and convey different concepts.

Prayer changes reality and is one method God uses to affect his plan.

You are struggling to understand what is to me a simple concept. It is obviously too complicated for your feeble intellect.

In order to keep your self esteem high, you will keep on believing in your delusional world view. It's blatantly obvious that you struggle very hard to find ways to lie to yourself about what reality is so that you can pretend to be smart. The truth is that you are a fool who is only fooling himself.

Personal insults are not allowed here.
admin allisolm

 

[WilliamM2]

Billy was equivocating in his sloppy insults about the "weak state if mind" of those that pray; I was looking for any explanation other than thoughtless identity formation via insult: none has been offered.

Actually, I said addicts were in a weak state of mind, meaning it would be easy to convince them of magical thinking. Do I really need to explain that? Do you think that addicts are in a powerful state of mind, always making great decisions? And again you say "insults", implying I stated it more than once. Liar.

I seem to have hit a nerve with you Democrat. How long have you been recovering?

 

[Moonbeam]

Actually, I said addicts were in a weak state of mind, meaning it would be easy to convince them of magical thinking. Do I really need to explain that? Do you think that addicts are in a powerful state of mind, always making great decisions? And again you say "insults", implying I stated it more than once. Liar.

I seem to have hit a nerve with you Democrat. How long have you been recovering?

I don't see you so much as hitting a nerve as I do you beating a drum. In a conversation about the potential positive effects of prayer on people who pray you bring up the subject of weak minded addicts. In the first place you seem to imply that addiction is the result of being weak minded and that staying an addict is the result of weak will. These are stereotypes. So is the implication that weak is less good than strong. In my opinion, addicts are generally addicts because they want to escape pain. Many I am fairly sure have suffered more than the average person. So to me I see more damage than I do weakness.

The second problem I see in your statement is the attempt to link religious belief with addiction. This is, I think, an assumption that you make, a common one we see expressed in the forums here all the time. It's basically prejudicial, a negative attitude non believers frequently adopt. In my opinion the counter to that negative belief was offered to you in the form of a statement that folk can win the Nobel prize and have faith. Even if only one such winner exists, it would to most thinking peoples' mind probably suggest that whatever faith that person has it's probably not the result of a weak mind. Does such a faith if it is in the existence of God prove that God exists. No, but it does suggest that a powerful intellect may coexist with belief.

And because these ideas seem right to me, that leaves me only the question of the origin of the motivation that creates such assumptions. Why are you motivated to make the assumptions that you do? What do you feel? Why do you link addiction and weak mindedness to the religious?

The problem with your position, if I see it correctly and it's real, is that if you are motivated by negative stereotypes it will bias your view of things. And once there is bias against something you will be unwilling to become the thing you are biased against even when real evidence comes your way that what you are biased against is actually a superior form of being. You will have unconsciously closed a door on truth and built yourself a prison. And if there is a form of being that manifests love for all being, you can bet anybody who experiences such a state would love to see you escape. Prison, as it happens, is extremely addictive, and one cure is faith. When the attitude is positive enough prison is no longer prison.

The leaf turns to the sun. The soul strives for the ideal. The greater the ideal you pick the greater will be the yearning.

Become a fool who loves without reason.

 

[WilliamM2]

I don't see you so much as hitting a nerve as I do you beating a drum. In a conversation about the potential positive effects of prayer on people who pray you bring up the subject of weak minded addicts. In the first place you seem to imply that addiction is the result of being weak minded and that staying an addict is the result of weak will.

No, I was stating that once they are addicts, they don't think clearly.

The second problem I see in your statement is the attempt to link religious belief with addiction.

I didn't link them, Democrat did, when asked for evidence that prayer worked, all he could come up with were studies on addiction recovery.

 

[Onceler]

You appear unable to recognize the arguments you are presented. I will attempt to re-state the argument in a simpler form, although I don't know if that is realistically possible.


Indeed they are, for the reason given. A plan is a formalization of will, and an omnipotent being's will is never thwarted or impeded. That which God plans becomes reality, necessarily.


How would that demonstrate anything?


Does it?


Like abortions?

You continue to make contradictory claims. Particularly, your most recent claims contradict your earlier claim that prayers change reality. If in fact reality is predicated on God's plan -- which you have claimed is unchanging -- then it is impossible for prayers -- which are part of reality -- to change reality. The prayers and their "answers" were planned already.

I sometimes get the feeling that Christians believe blatantly contradictory things because it provides them with a sense of mysticism, hearkening the attributes of some zen koans or sutras of the eastern religions. I think more often than not, however, these Christian contradictions are plain and simple inconsistencies in their belief structure, indicative of its likely falsehood.

It is not contradictory, God's plan involves peoples prayers, He answers them in the future at the end of time if you go by the bible(which I don't but I find nothing wrong with it in this particular context) at the end the prayers of all are poured out for God to answer in the book of revelation it says this. God's plan encompasses eternity, He knows all things at all times so He knows how to make His plan to fit the needs specified in prayers.

 

[smackababy]

It is not contradictory, God's plan involves peoples prayers, He answers them in the future at the end of time if you go by the bible(which I don't but I find nothing wrong with it in this particular context) at the end the prayers of all are poured out for God to answer in the book of revelation it says this. God's plan encompasses eternity, He knows all things at all times so He knows how to make His plan to fit the needs specified in prayers.

So, God planned for Hitler to kill all those Jews. Well, that sure is a terrible plan.


And if God's plan encompasses eternity, his plan included Adam and Eve being tricked by the snake. He knew this would happen, yet he chose to still place them in the situation AND punish them for following his plan. Seems rather contradictory.

 

[Retro Rob]

So, God planned for Hitler to kill all those Jews. Well, that sure is a terrible plan.


And if God's plan encompasses eternity, his plan included Adam and Eve being tricked by the snake. He knew this would happen, yet he chose to still place them in the situation AND punish them for following his plan. Seems rather contradictory.

I would like to read his answer to this.

 

[Moonbeam]

No, I was stating that once they are addicts, they don't think clearly.



I didn't link them, Democrat did, when asked for evidence that prayer worked, all he could come up with were studies on addiction recovery.

So you are saying then that 'don't think clearly' equals 'weak-minded'? Would you like this attempt to redefine things called a lack of clear thinking or weak minded?

Anyway, I only wanted to suggest to you that your points look suspect to me, based likely on unexamined assumptions. I'm giving you my point of view because it's the point of view that I have. I just offer it in case you might find something useful in my perspective. The only place you would likely find data on the effectiveness of prayer is where the topic has been studied by scientists. The effectiveness of treatments are one of those places. Treatments are generally sought after for people in some kind of need, the 'weak-minded', for example.

 

[Onceler]

So, God planned for Hitler to kill all those Jews. Well, that sure is a terrible plan.


And if God's plan encompasses eternity, his plan included Adam and Eve being tricked by the snake. He knew this would happen, yet he chose to still place them in the situation AND punish them for following his plan. Seems rather contradictory.

I never said I subscribe to the stories of the bible, but if it is to be believed then it is true that He did plan it in order to separate those that love Him from those who don't. Revelation does offer a gem of wisdom, it says somewhere I think it is the part of the four beasts who eternally repeat "Holy Holy Holy is the Lord God Almighty Who was and is and is yet to be" "For Your amusement were all things created".

 

[EagleKeeper]

So, God planned for Hitler to kill all those Jews. Well, that sure is a terrible plan.


And if God's plan encompasses eternity, his plan included Adam and Eve being tricked by the snake. He knew this would happen, yet he chose to still place them in the situation AND punish them for following his plan. Seems rather contradictory.

I would like to read his answer to this.

I have talked to other theologians on similar.
Eden was to have them appreciate what God can deliver.
Non-Eden was for them to understand what happens if one does not obey God's word.

Human equivalent to Heaven vs Hell

 

[WilliamM2]

So you are saying then that 'don't think clearly' equals 'weak-minded'?

Would you call it strong minded? I think it makes them easily susceptible to magical thinking.

 

[Onceler]

Every time there is a discussion on this or similar topics they always bring up the Jews and genocide yet there is never any mention of the Jews committing genocide (it's right there in the old testament God ordered the absolute destruction of Canaan and other nations). I am not anti Jew(I happen to like Israel) but I get tired of people bringing this up.

 

[smackababy]

Every time there is a discussion on this or similar topics they always bring up the Jews and genocide yet there is never any mention of the Jews committing genocide (it's right there in the old testament God ordered the absolute destruction of Canaan and other nations). I am not anti Jew(I happen to like Israel) but I get tired of people bringing this up.

I fail to see how what a people did thousands of years ago has to do with women and children who practice a religion being murdered. So, you're saying (while liking Israel) the Jews had it coming? At least, in the God's plan mindset?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

It is not contradictory, God's plan involves peoples prayers, He answers them in the future at the end of time if you go by the bible(which I don't but I find nothing wrong with it in this particular context) at the end the prayers of all are poured out for God to answer in the book of revelation it says this. God's plan encompasses eternity, He knows all things at all times so He knows how to make His plan to fit the needs specified in prayers.

I don't think you understand the contradiction I was describing, which is understandable given that the specific dialogue on that larger point is spread across multiple posts and pages in this thread.

I have stipulated that God's plan has taken into account the prayers and their "answers," but it was also claimed that while that plan is allegedly unchanging, prayers were capable of changing reality. That makes no sense if we are to suppose reality unfolds according to an unchanging plan.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Keep on lying to yourself about your intelligence and reasoning prowess if that's what it takes to make you feel happy.

Insults are not arguments, either.

Too bad for you that you lack the capacity to understand complex concepts. I will attempt to discuss the issue at your simplistic level of understanding and reading comprehension.

It's odd that you made it a point to announce your intention in such a way, but then never managed to accomplish what you had claimed.

Based on your post, plan is not identical to reality. It's obvious from the vocabulary usage that the two are different and convey different concepts.

This is just gainsaying. Nothing about what you've written addresses the argument I made and re-made.

Prayer changes reality and is one method God uses to affect his plan.

And this is simply a bald restatement of your contentious claim.

***Upon re-reading, I felt I should add that it should be clear that an allegedly "unchanging" plan could not be "affect[ed]" in any meaningful way. To affect something is to change it.

You are struggling to understand what is to me a simple concept. It is obviously too complicated for your feeble intellect.

In order to keep your self esteem high, you will keep on believing in your delusional world view. It's blatantly obvious that you struggle very hard to find ways to lie to yourself about what reality is so that you can pretend to be smart. The truth is that you are a fool who is only fooling himself.

This last bit reads like projection.

 

[Onceler]

I don't think you understand the contradiction I was describing, which is understandable given that the specific dialogue on that larger point is spread across multiple posts and pages in this thread.

I have stipulated that God's plan has taken into account the prayers and their "answers," but it was also claimed that while that plan is allegedly unchanging, prayers were capable of changing reality. That makes no sense if we are to suppose reality unfolds according to an unchanging plan.

My point is is that if the prayers had never been prayed God would not take them into account but they do influence God to alter reality, it is only that He already knows what is going to be said and done. You can go against His plan as king Ahab did but it has dire consequences.
And no I did not mean the Jews had it coming, I just meant that they are a little guilty of genocide themselves.

 

[JD50]

My point is is that if the prayers had never been prayed God would not take them into account but they do influence God to alter reality, it is only that He already knows what is going to be said and done. You can go against His plan as king Ahab did but it has dire consequences.
And no I did not mean the Jews had it coming, I just meant that they are a little guilty of genocide themselves.

If he already knows what is going to be said and done then he can't change it.

 

[PowerEngineer]

M: I would welcome an ability to shut my brain off if, when I use it, I invent all sorts of ideas that divert me from seeing what is real.

I agree that you've proven this point.

I also have come to appreciate that your responses are emotionally driven, but you shouldn't presume that mine have been. What you choose to characterize as "that awkward engineer thing going on regarding emotion" may be just rational, unimpassioned, "brain-on" thinking.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I have talked to other theologians on similar.
Eden was to have them appreciate what God can deliver.
Non-Eden was for them to understand what happens if one does not obey God's word.

Human equivalent to Heaven vs Hell

I would like to offer a more general answer that gets, I think, more precisely to the question.

The question of 'why does God allow evil', the fundamental question underlying the costs born by Man-kind for original sin, has been a problem since Epicurus said:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Is God willing to prevent evil but not able?Then he is not omnipotent.

God is omnipotent but boundedly so in the sense that any omnipotent being will be bound by this: "Plan is identical to reality for an omnipotent being."- Cerpin Tax

God is willing to prevent sin and not able to end it without there being other consequences. If the meaning of reality is to bring you, you the person reading this right now, to this very moment: then every bit of evil would have had to have gone throughout the world otherwise exactly, precisely, who everyone is or has been could never be.

Paul calls this the evil of our world 'birthing pains' of the world to come.

Implicit in this is that God is a being of pure will, and to plan to make us, you and me dear reader, just as we are God had to go through with creating the evils that would lead us to be who we are.

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

So, God, if defined as good and defined as creator, must have created evil by allowing for evil to enter into the picture. Further God must have known the consequences of evil. Finally, God could eliminate those consequences, but one of said consequences is precisely who you and I are.

Which is malevolence: to eliminate the good in you and I because there is some evil, or to allow for evil so long as there is still some good to be found?

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?

I posit that it may come from a desire to have exactly who you are exist.

And to that cosmic setup of history and time and matter that has lead God to allow you to be exactly to you are.

I can't then believe in eternal punishment for you being who you are; but rather believe that God is in all that are loving, who act in a way contrary to self-serving lust and greed: particularly at their own expense.

In my experience faith in Christ directly is submission of self which allows for elevation by God; and I welcome anyone else, spiritual or otherwise, who might offer their own experiences and interpretations.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

My point is is that if the prayers had never been prayed God would not take them into account but they do influence God to alter reality...

But it has been alleged that God's plan for reality is unchanging. How then could reality be altered, if it proceeds according to an unchanging plan?

... it is only that He already knows what is going to be said and done.

If it is already known, then it cannot be altered.

You can go against His plan as king Ahab did but it has dire consequences.

I would be very interested in anybody alleging that events in reality "go against His plan" to explain what it means to thwart the will of an omnipotent being.


{snip}