A universe with only 3 elementary particles is logical. That doesn't mean it exists.There are many books written on the logical existence of the Judeo-Christian God and in the deity of Jesus Christ. I can direct you to them if you're truly interested in reading them, but there's far too much content in those books to distill down and type by hand into a forum post.
But you didn't address your own question. If God is inerrantly knowledgeable of the future, then there is no choice, but merely its illusion. There isn't an alternative, therefore.God didn't "create evil". He created a being, Satan, who chose to be evil. Satan tempted Adam and Eve, and sadly, they chose to follow Satan instead of God... just as we are tempted by Satan and fall victim to those temptations today.So, the logical argument follows, "If God is all knowing, and he knew Satan would choose to be evil, why did He create Satan in the first place?" Personally, I'm glad that God gives us the choice of whether to follow God or to follow Satan and our own foolish, selfish, sinful desires. I think it would suck if we were all mindless automatons who didn't have the free will to choose. Think about it - which would be better, having your kids (wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/whomever) love you and respect you because they have no other choice, or have them love you even though they have the choice to do otherwise? I don't presume to understand God... but it must be sweeter to have people love you and obey you not because they are required to or forced to but because they are willing to, even when there is an alternative.
If so, what kind of prayer &/or what religion?
My aunt died this morning after a year of colon cancer.
I grew up in a very religious family (actually I'd call it a cult). People have been praying for my aunt for the entire time she's been sick. Lots of people, the entire Mennonite community in several countries have been praying for her.
Would've been nice if something good happened, but it didn't. I'd gladly keep on praying if I knew that somewhere, sometime, something positive had ever resulted from prayer.
Hoping for positive responses. Bye. Leaving soon for funeral.
There are many books written on the logical existence of the Judeo-Christian God and in the deity of Jesus Christ. I can direct you to them if you're truly interested in reading them, but there's far too much content in those books to distill down and type by hand into a forum post.
I guess that might be true if you are simply "rubbing the genie lamp" and praying to "get stuff", and then something with a high probability of chance happens anyway. But I don't really pray to get a raise and expect to magically get a raise. That's not the type of "answered prayer" I'm saying I've experienced.
God didn't "create evil". He created a being, Satan, who chose to be evil. Satan tempted Adam and Eve, and sadly, they chose to follow Satan instead of God... just as we are tempted by Satan and fall victim to those temptations today.
So, the logical argument follows, "If God is all knowing, and he knew Satan would choose to be evil, why did He create Satan in the first place?"
Personally, I'm glad that God gives us the choice of whether to follow God or to follow Satan and our own foolish, selfish, sinful desires.
I think it would suck if we were all mindless automatons who didn't have the free will to choose. Think about it - which would be better, having your kids (wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/whomever) love you and respect you because they have no other choice, or have them love you even though they have the choice to do otherwise? I don't presume to understand God... but it must be sweeter to have people love you and obey you not because they are required to or forced to but because they are willing to, even when there is an alternative.
I'm sorry to hear. For my part, prayer seems like a self fulfilling prophecy. If things work out, it's a miracle that god willed. If they don't, then, well... "God works in mysterious ways"/gods plan etc. Basically god is covered either way. In your case I suppose it could be construed that her passing was gods blessing in disguise as she's now no longer in pain.
Summed up: something good happens, it's God at work again. Something bad happens, it's that evil Satan guy doing it, or that God had some secret plan when he answered the prayers of the terrorists in crashing the jet into the world trade center.
So you're glad now that God created sin, even after the big speech earlier that you gave about sin being bad. Makes perfect sense.
What logical analysis is there arguing for not just a god, but your specific God? Please do tell.
And answered prayer doesn't mean anything. If I prayed to a jug of milk that I get a raise, and I do, does that mean the milk answered my prayers? Is that proof that jug of milk has supernatural powers of wish granting?
Also, if God is all knowing and the ultimate creator, why would he create evil and then punish us for making that choice? He, if he is all knowing, knew Eve would eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why would he put Adam and Eve in that situation and then punish them for doing it?
You either can't read, or can't comprehend 3rd grade english -- that is NOT what he said.
Religious believers always seem to bite off more than they can chew. This creates a field day for atheists. It always comes down to 'you don't want to listen or your heart is hardened' or some such deflection and pretty soon, in a sea of religious nonsense, it becomes pretty true. We all know, after a while, all the things the religious will say. In this way they sort of ruin the idea of God for everybody who can't compartmentalize his or her thinking.
So, as an atheist who had a strange experience, I was forced to see God in a different way, as a representation of man's human potential, what any person can become, aware and awakened from the delusion created by duality, the realization that the self and the universe are the same thing. The eye with which I see God is the same eye with which He sees me, as Meister Eckhart says, or in the words of the incomparable Mulla Nasrudin, Oh my Beloved, wherever I look it appears to be Thou. God isn't real when one believes or has doubt in Him. God is when the self disappears. God is love and if you can risk loving as you once did, you and God will be the same thing. Did you get to be happy when you were young? It's sort of like that, I should say, the resumption of a simple natural state of being with all the potential for joy we were born with.
Evil exists because we have been separated from that and it's made us very very angry.
This is why there are a million paths to God including psychotherapy.
But the sad thing for me is that if you reject God you reject your own potential. But if you believe it also doesn't mean anything if the ego dominates because the ego will not of itself cease to be. For this reason its really would be nice to have a teacher who can see our egos in ways that we cannot.
We can probably see ego in this thread in the subject of prayer because the ego always assumes that what we pray for is good. But the ego has no idea what is good for the real self and what is not, in my opinion.
This is why to me, all the nonsense and paradox created by the notion of praying to God for something for the ego creates a religious circus act. If you are going to pray for something, pray that God's will is done here as it is when love has ended duality. Pray to forgive others so you can forgive yourself because what keeps the ego alive, in my opinion, is the fear that we will be hurt again as we were long ago when we really loved ourselves and were to young to even know it.
You either never took a basic logic class, or cannot comprehend logic at all -- this is the logical extension of what he said.
How can you get "I'm glad he made sin" out of "I'm glad we have freedom to choose"?
That's like getting "I'm glad kids get murdered with guns" out of "I'm glad we have the right to bear arms".
You really have no argument against that, so you're making stuff up again.
It's distinctly different.
If I write a program, that does a specific function, and that function only, does the program have free will?
If there is an all-knowing God, which created Angels, one of which "fell", then logically God created the angel full well knowing the angel would fall.
Same thing goes for the magic apple - why would God place the apple there in the first place? If God is all-knowing, then he knowingly placed the apple there, knowingly created the snake, and knowingly created a rib-woman which would eat said magic apple after being convinced to by the talking snake. It's logic 101.
The flaw in your logical is that you're presupposing your conclusion.
Please do post these books. I am interested in any logical arguments for their being a god. And if there is logical argument for it, why has science not acknowledged it in any way.
Praying and having them answered offers no proof of anything unless it is something outside of the natural boundaries of the world. Native American's have prayed for rain for hundreds of years; because it rains, does not prove their god is any more real than yours. We know why it rains, and we know prayers have no effect on the water table. Now, if it rained frogs, that is another story.
Lucifer was an angel and, if I understand correctly, angels to not have free will. By that logic, either angels do have free will or God created Lucifer with the capacity to challenge God and eventually bring evil to man.
That doesn't even make sense - can you please elaborate?
You're assuming God knew everything that would happen before he created humans, which means free will is only a fantasy.
So if he knew we'd sin, telling them to refrain from eating off the tree would have NO meaning, and would not require punishment.
For the simple fact they were punished (put out of the garden) means God allowed them to exercise their free will freely and without his direct intervention, or foreknowledge.
So you're basically saying, God was like "hmmm I know humans are gonna eat from this tree so let me Create them, tell them not to (which would be pointless) and watch them do it, and then blame them for it."
If this is what you're saying, bring some form of evidence confirming this.
Are you saying then that God is not all-knowing?
Please address the post first. Thank you.
<snip>
Juddog, it is clear that you are only going to twist words and mock my beliefs. I'm not going to play your little game and feed your hunger. Take my lack of reply however you want, but it is clear that my words mean nothing to you anyway.
So god knows this will happen, has the power to stop it, but chooses not to. This is all just part of god's plan right?
Then you have the terrorists praying to their god for their plan to be successful, and people on the plane praying for the opposte. god hears these prayers and just ignores both parties in this instance? So is it just coincidence that the terrorists prayed for success, and they were successful?
Then we get back to the problem of god being all knowing and omnipotent, do we really have free will? If everything is part of god's plan, then our actions are predetermined. Which means we really don't have free will, we're doing what god planned. Which also means that your prayers do nothing (aside from comforting you), since everything is part of god's plan anyways.
Where am I wrong here?
But you didn't address your own question. If God is inerrantly knowledgeable of the future, then there is no choice, but merely its illusion. There isn't an alternative, therefore.
Let me guess - you're that kid who would take their ball and go home when the game didn't go your way in school? It's pretty sad that you can't think outside of your little box that you put your mind into.
Until then, I'll pray to Zeus to bring you free electricity for a month - here goes, rubbing the magic genie bottle right now!
-- edit --
Basically your entire line of reasoning boils down to "my dad is better than your dad", without any proof whatsoever. What makes your god so much better than someone else's god? What makes your god real, and their god fake? These are the fundamental questions you have yet to even come close to addressing.
bump
Jud, I've posted links that discuss in depth the rational arguments to what I believe... as close to "proof" as I've got. You can choose to read them or ignore them. Doesn't matter whether you do or not... I've passed along the information. You, on the other hand, have nothing to offer me except to scoff at me and tell me I'm wrong. That's... pretty sad.
I hope you check out those links. If not... well, you've got free will. Take care.