Has prayer ever worked for you?

[TreyRandom]

So you're sidestepping the question again. What makes your god better than someone else's god? All of your links deal with one god, not multiple gods from different systems. This shows your inherent ego-based view of things. Until you can step outside of your ego-based view, you'll never understand what it means to look at the world through someone else's eyes and your mind will always be locked in your little box.

If you want to give up though, I can see why - each one of your points was dismantled one by one, so I guess you have nothing left to offer, so you leave on the "my god is better than your god" note, again no different than one child telling another at the playground "my dad is better than your dad".

Why on earth would I post links to books that discuss why they believe another god exists? If you want to post links to some, by all means, you don't need my permission!

You act as if I haven't done any research about other gods and belief systems and cultures. I have, and I don't believe in them any more than you believe in mine. You are free to choose those belief systems, however.

I'm not "giving up" - there's no reason to continue arguing. If you want to find out why I believe in the God I believe, read those books. If you don't, then don't. It is useless to spell it out here when the information already exists and can easily be read.

 

[Juddog]

Why on earth would I post links to books that discuss why they believe another god exists? If you want to post links to some, by all means, you don't need my permission!

You act as if I haven't done any research about other gods and belief systems and cultures. I have, and I don't believe in them any more than you believe in mine. You are free to choose those belief systems, however.

I'm not "giving up" - there's no reason to continue arguing. If you want to find out why I believe in the God I believe, read those books. If you don't, then don't. It is useless to spell it out here when the information already exists and can easily be read.

You are giving up - you're just saying "read these books and your opinion will change". That's classic fallacious arguing from authority. You have the ability to sum up the points of the books, but you chose not to.

I understand why you give up though, since you still have yet to address why your God is so much better than the other literally thousands of gods out there. It's easy to hide behind what someone else wrote instead of thinking for yourself, especially when literally every single point you had this entire thread has been dismantled besides "prayer makes you feel good".

 

[Retro Rob]

Why on earth would I post links to books that discuss why they believe another god exists? If you want to post links to some, by all means, you don't need my permission!

You act as if I haven't done any research about other gods and belief systems and cultures. I have, and I don't believe in them any more than you believe in mine. You are free to choose those belief systems, however.

I'm not "giving up" - there's no reason to continue arguing. If you want to find out why I believe in the God I believe, read those books. If you don't, then don't. It is useless to spell it out here when the information already exists and can easily be read.

Right.

Secondly, its not out job to prove why "our God is better than someone else's God" no more is it his job to prove why his lack of belief is better than our belief.

All we're required to do is point them in the direction of the information (lead to water) and it's up to them to drink.

No proving required.

 

[Retro Rob]

You are giving up - you're just saying "read these books and your opinion will change". That's classic fallacious arguing from authority. You have the ability to sum up the points of the books, but you chose not to.

I understand why you give up though, since you still have yet to address why your God is so much better than the other literally thousands of gods out there. It's easy to hide behind what someone else wrote instead of thinking for yourself, especially when literally every single point you had this entire thread has been dismantled besides "prayer makes you feel good".

Each person is required to prove things to themselves in regards this subject because we can't "make" you believe.

That requires YOU to read the links, YOU to study the material.... we don't have to that for you.

 

[Paul98]

Prayer does not work in any case where your mind it's self can't overcome the problem, and prayer is just helping YOU believe that you will overcome something where before your mind was standing in the way.

Otherwise it's just a matter of events lining up, the prayer it's self doesn't cause the thing to come true. It just happens that you prayed for something that was already going to happen if you had prayed or not.

 

[Juddog]

Right.

Secondly, its not out job to prove why "our God is better than someone else's God" no more is it his job to prove why his lack of belief is better than our belief.

All we're required to do is point them in the direction of the information (lead to water) and it's up to them to drink.

No proving required.

I like how you go straight to secondly. You keep coming up with analogies that simply don't apply. Leading a horse to water is nothing like someone believing in their God or not.

I have an analogy for you: logic is to a religious person like someone trying to smell a flower using their ear.

Thirdly (see what I did there?) you still haven't answered the question - is God all knowing or not?

 

[Juddog]

Each person is required to prove things to themselves in regards this subject because we can't "make" you believe.

That requires YOU to read the links, YOU to study the material.... we don't have to that for you.

So did you read the material, and if so, can you provide a summation or not?

Are you really thinking for yourself here, or are you following the herd like a sheep?

 

[Juddog]

Prayer does not work in any case where your mind it's self can't overcome the problem, and prayer is just helping YOU believe that you will overcome something where before your mind was standing in the way.

Otherwise it's just a matter of events lining up, the prayer it's self doesn't cause the thing to come true. It just happens that you prayed for something that was already going to happen if you had prayed or not.

Exactly - so it's basically no different than meditation, which is proven scientifically via studying MRI results of people who pray versus people who meditate.

Meditation is prayer without the "rub a bottle and maybe the genie will come out - if he wants to".

 

[Retro Rob]

I like how you go straight to secondly. You keep coming up with analogies that simply don't apply. Leading a horse to water is nothing like someone believing in their God or not.

That's why I said leading a horse to water is akin to showing someone the information -- I didn't say it was akin to believing in God.

I have an analogy for you: logic is to a religious person like someone trying to smell a flower using their ear.

That one is pretty funny, honestly!

Thirdly (see what I did there?) you still haven't answered the question - is God all knowing or not?

You didn't address my post prior to that question. Address MY (not someone else's) post and you'll get my answer.

 

[Retro Rob]

So did you read the material, and if so, can you provide a summation or not?

Are you really thinking for yourself here, or are you following the herd like a sheep?

I already know the information and no, stop being lazy....I am not summizing it for you.

 

[Juddog]

You didn't address my post prior to that question. Address MY (not someone else's) post and you'll get my answer.

I already answered the question, at this point you are sidestepping and talking in circles.

The answer was that I based what I said upon the assumption that god is all-knowing. If you don't feel that god is all-knowing, then just say so and we can debate from there.

Do you feel that God is all-knowing or does he have limits? It's one or the other and it can't be both.

 

[Juddog]

I already know the information and no, stop being lazy....I am not summizing it for you.

OK so in other words you cannot "summize"[sic] the information, because you're super smart and memorized all the material, and anybody who doesn't go read several hundred pages of garbage is just plain lazy. Got it.

 

[Retro Rob]

OK so in other words you cannot "summize"[sic] the information, because you're super smart and memorized all the material, and anybody who doesn't go read several hundred pages of garbage is just plain lazy. Got it.

If it's garbage, why do you want a summation?

 

[Juddog]

If it's garbage, why do you want a summation?

I want a summation to discuss your personal interpretation of the events contained therein, and to debate them and see what merit they hold.

 

[Paul98]

If it's garbage, why do you want a summation?

Which links are you talking about?

 

[Retro Rob]

I want a summation to discuss your personal interpretation of the events contained therein, and to debate them and see what merit they hold.

Why not just read it yourself to determine its merit free of my obvious "flawed" interpretation?

Again...you're being lazy....stop being lazy.

Should I dress you in the morning, too?

 

[Juddog]

Why not just read it yourself to determine its merit free of my obvious "flawed" interpretation?

Again...you're being lazy....stop being lazy.

Should I dress you in the morning, too?

Again you side step the main questions - do you or don't you feel that God is all knowing?

I don't understand why you are so afraid of the question. Stop being lazy.

 

[Juddog]

Which links are you talking about?

He's referring to these:

Handbook of Christian Apologetics / Kreeft and Tacelli
Faith and Reason / Nash
The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism / Keller
The Case for a Creator / Stroebel
The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ / Habermas
Answering the Objections of Atheists, Agnostics, & Skeptics / Rhodes
Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics / Craig
Mere Christianity / Lewis

 

[Paul98]

He's referring to these:

Handbook of Christian Apologetics / Kreeft and Tacelli
Faith and Reason / Nash
The Reason for God: Belief in an Age of Skepticism / Keller
The Case for a Creator / Stroebel
The Historical Jesus: Ancient Evidence for the Life of Christ / Habermas
Answering the Objections of Atheists, Agnostics, & Skeptics / Rhodes
Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics / Craig
Mere Christianity / Lewis

I am supposed to buy that????

I am 100% sure it's the same rehashed stupid faulty arguments you hear all the time and are all over the internet. Is there some sort of new argument that hasn't been shown to be wrong over and over again?

 

[Retro Rob]

He said neither of those books are the basis for his faith -- just reading hen does.

And no you're not required to buy anything.

 

[Juddog]

He said neither of those books are the basis for his faith -- just reading hen does.

And no you're not required to buy anything.

If I'm not required to buy them, then how am I supposed to get them from Amazon for free?

 

[Mursilis]

But you didn't address your own question. If God is inerrantly knowledgeable of the future, then there is no choice, but merely its illusion. There isn't an alternative, therefore.

This argument seems to confuse control with mere knowledge. I own dogs who love to eat. If you were to drop a hamburger in front of my dogs, I'm entirely certain they'd eat it. I do not coerce them into this outcome, but the outcome is certain regardless.

 

[Juddog]

This argument seems to confuse control with mere knowledge. I own dogs who love to eat. If you were to drop a hamburger in front of my dogs, I'm entirely certain they'd eat it. I do not coerce them into this outcome, but the outcome is certain regardless.

So you're saying that God put the magic apple in front of the rib-woman to eat, knowing that she would go after it the same way the dog would go after the hamburger, correct?

 

[Retro Rob]

If I'm not required to buy them, then how am I supposed to get them from Amazon for free?

"Buy" in the context of "accepting" in as Paul used the word.

 

[Mursilis]

So you're saying that God put the magic apple in front of the rib-woman to eat, knowing that she would go after it the same way the dog would go after the hamburger, correct?

I don't see where I mentioned God at all - I was merely addressing the logic of the argument. Knowing outcomes =/= controlling outcomes.