Has prayer ever worked for you?

[JD50]

I can guarantee you that God wasn't "granting their wish" to kill innocent people. At least, the God I worship doesn't allow that. Perhaps Allah does, but Jehovah God does not.

Well, it happened, so apparently he does allow it. Either that or he doesn't have the power to stop it.

 

[Juddog]

You're either (purposely or accidentally) not listening or not comprehending. I've answered this question repeatedly.

God doesn't support sin. Taking the lives of the innocent is a sin. The terrorists didn't kill the people in the name of Jehovah God; they killed in the name of Allah.

Who created sin, if not for God? If he's all powerful and all-knowing, then he created the universe with sin in it. If you actually read the Bible, then you'd see that God has plenty of killing and suffering that he's lumped on humanity over the years.

Besides that, anybody under Christianity can sin all they want - they just have to ask Jesus for forgiveness, and *boom* sin is gone. Rape a few dozen children in church? No problem - just a quick prayer and all is forgotten, it's like magic!

If Allah is the one granting prayers, not (your) God, then what good is (your) God? He sounds pretty useless.

The Bible says that killing is a sin. Just because killing has happened, or because some people decided to kill (whether in God's name or not), doesn't mean that killing isn't a sin. Whether a particular killing was justified or not... well, you're gonna have to ask God that question. That's way beyond my clearance level. So it's useless to argue with me about why God "let the terrorists win". Ask God when you meet Him.

If only God can judge if it's a sin, then obviously you don't know if it's a sin or not. Here you are again dictating your conditions to God, as if he's going to listen to you above the world?

As far as mass floodings are concerned... I will repeat: Death isn't the big bad boogeyman that we should all fear. Death is simply the transition from this life to the next.

So back to square one then - the terrorists got their wish... oh that's right, God isn't a genie, it's "prayer" - granted, and killed a few thousand people. Since it's no big deal to transition to the next life, then it's no big deal that their prayer wish granting was more powerful than the passengers on the plane, praying that God would intervene and do something.

We're all gonna die. And it is hard to bear when loved ones are taken from us. But death will take us all at some point... whether at the hands of some crazed gunman, or tripping down the stairs, or peacefully in our sleep. Whether one death is more "fair" than others is another of those questions you'll have to ask God. I can't answer that.

Yes we all die - since only God can judge, and only God can answer prayers, then it was pretty obvious that the terrorists praying to kill several thousand people were in favor of God, after all their prayer was granted. Therefore God wanted them to hit the building, according to your logic, since you "can't answer that", but had no problem "answering that" to a bunch of earlier questions as far as what God thinks.

Basically according to your logic, the terrorists are now up in heaven with 77 virgins each, living it up, since God was obviously on their side.

 

[Juddog]

No wish was granted. They implemented their plan, they hijacked a plane, they took innocent lives. We have free will to sin.

God didn't massacre tribes of people; people did. As for whether He told them to do it, you'll have to ask Him. I wasn't there, and I haven't been commanded (either in the Bible or in prayer) to take the lives of innocents.

They prayed, and God answered their prayers. Who are you to judge God? You just got done saying "I can't answer that", yet suddenly you're able to answer that?

 

[TreyRandom]

--- edit ---
To sum up, (your) God doesn't:
* Promise to help with suffering
* Promise to not stop you from dying
* Fight other Gods that actually do grant prayer requests, such as the terrorists who get to go to heaven and experience 77 virgins per terrorist.

So basically your God is useless and prayer is pointless, until you die and go to a magical place that nobody else can see. Got it.

He does help with suffering. He gives me the strength to endure the suffering that happens in this life.

He doesn't promise to not stop me from dying. Dying came when we chose to sin.

There are false gods, but only one Creator God. There is no god who will grant 77 virgins, though some believe in a god who will.

Again, I'm not going to convince you my God exists or that heaven exists. Nanette asked whether prayer has ever worked for me, and I answered that it has, multiple times. Others have as well. Just because prayer hasn't worked for you doesn't mean prayers are never answered. You choose to not believe. That's fine; that's your choice. But the least you can do is to respect Nanette by not taking a big ole anti-prayer crap in her thread.

For what it's worth, I will pray that your heart doesn't remain hardened and that perhaps you will someday begin to seek the truth.

 

[TreyRandom]

Besides that, anybody under Christianity can sin all they want - they just have to ask Jesus for forgiveness, and *boom* sin is gone. Rape a few dozen children in church? No problem - just a quick prayer and all is forgotten, it's like magic!

That's altogether not how it works. It takes more than prayer; it takes repentance.

Further, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross doesn't give us carte blanche to sin without consequence:

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" Romans 6:1-2

If you want to continue the conversation - if you're really interested in having a conversation, not some intellectual debate - please send me a PM, and let's move this out of Nanette's thread out of respect for her.

 

[Retro Rob]

They prayed, and God answered their prayers. Who are you to judge God? You just got done saying "I can't answer that", yet suddenly you're able to answer that?

All your ignorance is easily remedied -- the Bible, even Jesus said, there would be wars and disorders of sorts.

Whether or not God has the power to stop it isn't never debated in scripture because he does and will stop it, but these things are prophesied to happen prior to him acting.

So you can use your under-educated arguments about "prayer" being answered, the simple FACT is these sort of things WILL and ARE happening as said.

In short, prayers answered or not, these things were going to occur anyway.

 

[Juddog]

He does help with suffering. He gives me the strength to endure the suffering that happens in this life.

Which is different than meditation how again?

He doesn't promise to not stop me from dying. Dying came when we chose to sin.

So setting up the rib-woman to eat the magic apple that he put there, after creating a talking snake to convince the rib-woman to eat it, was OK in your book, am I right?

There are false gods, but only one Creator God. There is no god who will grant 77 virgins, though some believe in a god who will.

It sounds like you're sad that their God was more powerful than your God. Too bad, so sad.

Again, I'm not going to convince you my God exists or that heaven exists. Nanette asked whether prayer has ever worked for me, and I answered that it has, multiple times. Others have as well.

I have yet to see a single instance in this thread where prayer made an actual difference versus the odds that something would have happened anyways whether you prayed or not, other than the fact that it makes you feel good. The feel good can be accomplished through meditation, so basically the only benefit to prayer is the same benefit that one gains from meditation - that's it. If you believe that God answered prayers, then either you were ok with him granting the prayers to the terrorists, or your God is so feeble that he pussy'd out when facing "Allah" and let the terrorist prayers win.

Just because prayer hasn't worked for you doesn't mean prayers are never answered. You choose to not believe. That's fine; that's your choice. But the least you can do is to respect Nanette by not taking a big ole anti-prayer crap in her thread.

The discussion was whether prayers work or not - and the only thing actually proven is that prayers make you feel good, that's it.

For what it's worth, I will pray that your heart doesn't remain hardened and that perhaps you will someday begin to seek the truth.

For what it's worth, I will pray that Odin will kick the crap out of your God with lightning bolts from Mount Olympus after your god just got done getting his ass kicked by Allah, since he was obviously too feeble to stop Allah from granting genie wishes to terrorists, so that they can go to heaven and get their 77 virgins each. It seems your ok with that though, since "I can't answer that." is all you can think of when it comes down to it, after you just got done answering that.

 

[Juddog]

In short, prayers answered or not, these things were going to occur anyway.

Then what is the point of praying, since you just admitted they are going to happen anyway?

 

[Juddog]

That's altogether not how it works. It takes more than prayer; it takes repentance.

So now you're dictating conditions to God again? He's God, he can do whatever he wants. If he wants to grant wishes to terrorists, along with a nice cushy spot in heaven with 77 virigin wives each, that's his perogative, and it's not up to you to decide whether or not "how it works".

Further, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross doesn't give us carte blanche to sin without consequence:

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?" Romans 6:1-2

At what point then does sin become unforgiveable? Jesus died for your sins, all of them, not part of them.

If you want to continue the conversation - if you're really interested in having a conversation, not some intellectual debate - please send me a PM, and let's move this out of Nanette's thread out of respect for her.

This is the discussion club, and anything posted here is open for debate. If you care for Nanette, then by all means send her a comforting PM, but don't allow that to get in the way of an honest intellectual debate.

 

[Retro Rob]

Then what is the point of praying, since you just admitted they are going to happen anyway?

You pray for the same reason you to talk to your wife, or parents -- to grow the relationship.

But you're a smart person. You can go find this stuff out if you wanted to, so I will leave he rest up to you.

 

[Juddog]

You pray for the same reason you to talk to your wife, or parents -- to grow the relationship.

But you're a smart person. You can go find this stuff out if you wanted to, so I will leave he rest up to you.

Except that your wife, or parents, talk back. You know - tangible people that actually respond. That's been the one big flaw with all of your analogies.

 

[Retro Rob]

Except that your wife, or parents, talk back. You know - tangible people that actually respond. That's been the one big flaw with all of your analogies.

All analogies require are similar elements.

Again, you have all the information you need.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[TreyRandom]

Which is different than meditation how again?

Meditation doesn't give me the strength to endure. Nor are my prayers answered through meditation. My prayers to God, on the other hand, are answered, and not always in the negative, and not always in the way I expect.

Although it is clear that you want to simply mock and ridicule my beliefs, I am glad to have had the opportunity to state my experiences for the benefit of those who want to hear.

 

[JD50]

Well, it happened, so apparently he does allow it. Either that or he doesn't have the power to stop it.

TreyRandom can you explain this please? You said god doesn't allow such things, so then how did it happen?

 

[TreyRandom]

TreyRandom can you explain this please? You said god doesn't allow such things, so then how did it happen?

Are you truly interested in knowing? Or are you simply waiting for the reply so you and Juddog to continue to mock my beliefs? I'll answer if you are really interested, but I suspect this is just an intellectual debate for you guys.

 

[JD50]

Are you truly interested in knowing? Or are you simply waiting for the reply so you and Juddog to continue to mock my beliefs? I'll answer if you are really interested, but I suspect this is just an intellectual debate for you guys.

Yes, this lack of logic is the sort of thing that turned me to atheism.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yes, this lack of logic is the sort of thing that turned me to atheism.

I though he was saying God doesn't allow evil wishing to be granted (by not granting them) its obvious evil actions are being allowed.

 

[TreyRandom]

I though he was saying God doesn't allow evil wishing to be granted, its obvious evil actions are being allowed -- but I will hear him out.

Yep, it's basically this. God isn't going to magically grant a wish that kills innocent people (EDIT - I don't speak for God - this is simply based on reading the entirety of His Word, not just a few stories found within). The terrorists killed the people. God didn't strike the people dead, nor did He fly the plane into the building. Terrorists did it.

So why did this happen? Why didn't God stop the terrorists like some astral superhero and save those people? God allows us to make the choice of whether to sin or not sin. The terrorists chose to take those lives, and it is the terrorists who will have to answer for that sin... assuming, of course, that my God actually exists. It is my experience that God does exist, not only because of logical analysis, but also through answered prayer. You can choose to not believe, and that is your right. I won't mock you for it. I choose to believe, and hope that someday you do as well.

 

[Retro Rob]

Yep, it's basically this. God isn't going to magically grant a wish that kills innocent people (EDIT - I don't speak for God - this is simply based on reading the entirety of His Word, not just a few stories found within). The terrorists killed the people. God didn't strike the people dead, nor did He fly the plane into the building. Terrorists did it.

So why did this happen? Why didn't God stop the terrorists like some astral superhero and save those people? God allows us to make the choice of whether to sin or not sin. The terrorists chose to take those lives, and it is the terrorists who will have to answer for that sin... assuming, of course, that my God actually exists. It is my experience that God does exist, not only because of logical analysis, but also through answered prayer. You can choose to not believe, and that is your right. I won't mock you for it. I choose to believe, and hope that someday you do as well.

I pretty much agree as well.

 

[smackababy]

Yep, it's basically this. God isn't going to magically grant a wish that kills innocent people (EDIT - I don't speak for God - this is simply based on reading the entirety of His Word, not just a few stories found within). The terrorists killed the people. God didn't strike the people dead, nor did He fly the plane into the building. Terrorists did it.

So why did this happen? Why didn't God stop the terrorists like some astral superhero and save those people? God allows us to make the choice of whether to sin or not sin. The terrorists chose to take those lives, and it is the terrorists who will have to answer for that sin... assuming, of course, that my God actually exists. It is my experience that God does exist, not only because of logical analysis, but also through answered prayer. You can choose to not believe, and that is your right. I won't mock you for it. I choose to believe, and hope that someday you do as well.

What logical analysis is there arguing for not just a god, but your specific God? Please do tell.

And answered prayer doesn't mean anything. If I prayed to a jug of milk that I get a raise, and I do, does that mean the milk answered my prayers? Is that proof that jug of milk has supernatural powers of wish granting?

Also, if God is all knowing and the ultimate creator, why would he create evil and then punish us for making that choice? He, if he is all knowing, knew Eve would eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why would he put Adam and Eve in that situation and then punish them for doing it?

 

[JD50]

Yep, it's basically this. God isn't going to magically grant a wish that kills innocent people (EDIT - I don't speak for God - this is simply based on reading the entirety of His Word, not just a few stories found within). The terrorists killed the people. God didn't strike the people dead, nor did He fly the plane into the building. Terrorists did it.

So why did this happen? Why didn't God stop the terrorists like some astral superhero and save those people? God allows us to make the choice of whether to sin or not sin. The terrorists chose to take those lives, and it is the terrorists who will have to answer for that sin... assuming, of course, that my God actually exists. It is my experience that God does exist, not only because of logical analysis, but also through answered prayer. You can choose to not believe, and that is your right. I won't mock you for it. I choose to believe, and hope that someday you do as well.

So god knows this will happen, has the power to stop it, but chooses not to. This is all just part of god's plan right?

Then you have the terrorists praying to their god for their plan to be successful, and people on the plane praying for the opposte. god hears these prayers and just ignores both parties in this instance? So is it just coincidence that the terrorists prayed for success, and they were successful?

Then we get back to the problem of god being all knowing and omnipotent, do we really have free will? If everything is part of god's plan, then our actions are predetermined. Which means we really don't have free will, we're doing what god planned. Which also means that your prayers do nothing (aside from comforting you), since everything is part of god's plan anyways.

Where am I wrong here?

 

[TreyRandom]

What logical analysis is there arguing for not just a god, but your specific God? Please do tell.

There are many books written on the logical existence of the Judeo-Christian God and in the deity of Jesus Christ. I can direct you to them if you're truly interested in reading them, but there's far too much content in those books to distill down and type by hand into a forum post.

And answered prayer doesn't mean anything. If I prayed to a jug of milk that I get a raise, and I do, does that mean the milk answered my prayers? Is that proof that jug of milk has supernatural powers of wish granting?

I guess that might be true if you are simply "rubbing the genie lamp" and praying to "get stuff", and then something with a high probability of chance happens anyway. But I don't really pray to get a raise and expect to magically get a raise. That's not the type of "answered prayer" I'm saying I've experienced.

Also, if God is all knowing and the ultimate creator, why would he create evil and then punish us for making that choice? He, if he is all knowing, knew Eve would eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge. Why would he put Adam and Eve in that situation and then punish them for doing it?

God didn't "create evil". He created a being, Satan, who chose to be evil. Satan tempted Adam and Eve, and sadly, they chose to follow Satan instead of God... just as we are tempted by Satan and fall victim to those temptations today.

So, the logical argument follows, "If God is all knowing, and he knew Satan would choose to be evil, why did He create Satan in the first place?" Personally, I'm glad that God gives us the choice of whether to follow God or to follow Satan and our own foolish, selfish, sinful desires. I think it would suck if we were all mindless automatons who didn't have the free will to choose. Think about it - which would be better, having your kids (wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/whomever) love you and respect you because they have no other choice, or have them love you even though they have the choice to do otherwise? I don't presume to understand God... but it must be sweeter to have people love you and obey you not because they are required to or forced to but because they are willing to, even when there is an alternative.

 

[justin4pack]

This debate is pointless. People who have faith will continue and people who do not will continue to criticise. The reason people choose to accept this is because its better then being alone and feeling that death is forever. I do it because I feel it helps me be a better person. Forget the "facts" I strive to "do the right thing". Nobody has the answer if he is real or not. Trying to prove the bible or god doesn't make sense is easy. Believing in something you cant see or hear is little more of a challenge.

 

[TreyRandom]

This debate is pointless. People who have faith will continue and people who do not will continue to criticise. The reason people choose to accept this is because its better then being alone and feeling that death is forever. I do it because I feel it helps me be a better person. Forget the "facts" I strive to "do the right thing". Nobody has the answer if he is real or not. Trying to prove the bible or god doesn't make sense is easy. Believing in something you cant see or hear is little more of a challenge.

True. I post for the benefit of those who might be reading silently on the sidelines. I'm not out to change anyone's mind... I simply state my beliefs and people can decide for themselves.

 

[smackababy]

There are many books written on the logical existence of the Judeo-Christian God and in the deity of Jesus Christ. I can direct you to them if you're truly interested in reading them, but there's far too much content in those books to distill down and type by hand into a forum post.

Please do post these books. I am interested in any logical arguments for their being a god. And if there is logical argument for it, why has science not acknowledged it in any way.

I guess that might be true if you are simply "rubbing the genie lamp" and praying to "get stuff", and then something with a high probability of chance happens anyway. But I don't really pray to get a raise and expect to magically get a raise. That's not the type of "answered prayer" I'm saying I've experienced.

Praying and having them answered offers no proof of anything unless it is something outside of the natural boundaries of the world. Native American's have prayed for rain for hundreds of years; because it rains, does not prove their god is any more real than yours. We know why it rains, and we know prayers have no effect on the water table. Now, if it rained frogs, that is another story.

God didn't "create evil". He created a being, Satan, who chose to be evil. Satan tempted Adam and Eve, and sadly, they chose to follow Satan instead of God... just as we are tempted by Satan and fall victim to those temptations today.

Lucifer was an angel and, if I understand correctly, angels to not have free will. By that logic, either angels do have free will or God created Lucifer with the capacity to challenge God and eventually bring evil to man.