has the MB vs BMW debate changed recently, or is it just me?

waterjug

Senior member
Jan 21, 2012
930
0
76
I grew up around mechanics, automotive workers, etc. and when I was younger it was always 'benz for the hood ornament, BMW for actual solid engineering'. The last few years though this feels like it's changing, at least to me; has anyone else noticed this? I feel like Mercedes-Benz is really stepping up their offerings, while BMW hasn't really taken a dive, but maybe have not improved all that much. I actually find most BMWs now to be cramped, and the ride to be decent, but not great. Any one have similar thoughts?
 

Vdubchaos

Lifer
Nov 11, 2009
10,411
10
0
I think BMW tanked in the early 2000s with the design. They went from one of the most beautiful cars to one of the ugliest (to me anyways).

MB lost my way too as they soon started to somewhat copy BMW design language.

Design aside, both of these makers (Audi/VW included) lost me completely as I started to work on these cars and got a closer look at how things are designed etc.

Truth is, Germans always had issues with Electronics. YET they are now putting more worthless electronic crap into their cars than ever before thus making them more unreliable (more moving parts/features = less reliable).

I also learned that they are overly expensive and complex for no apparent reason.

I used to be able to put aside the reliability and cost, but once the design tanks.......there isn't really much left (to me).

I find new German cars to be very ugly (inside out).....maybe outside of very few. I used to take a 2nd look/admire and desire German cars.

That's no longer the case.

Maybe it was simply my ignorance or youth....who knows.
 

sgrinavi

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2007
4,537
0
76
I think MB has done well stepping up their game. I think that GM has done well with their Caddy's & Buicks as well. The competition is really upping the offerings. That new 2.0 liter AWD AMG is effin awesome. The M235 is going to be a beast with LSD and a tune.

I have a new BMW and really don't see the quality drop that the haters talk about. In fact, I owned a 328 from the last three gens and all have been great cars and have been getting better, not worse.

I find most of the German cars to be good looking and most of the Korean and Japanese cars to be less than desirable, so, ya, it's a matter of taste.
 

KIAman

Diamond Member
Mar 7, 2001
3,342
23
81
I have yet to drive a car that balances handling and ride quality like a BMW does (without the runflats). Smooth and quiet when I want it and handling beast when I want it.

All the other cars in it's class doesn't even come close from my testing. The Infinity is too loud and rough on the road but handles well. Even the Q series is louder than my 3 and the ride is WAY harsher but covered by the bolstered seats.

The MB C and E series are now very nice and the ride is quiet and smooth but they lack in the handling department. Even the C-Sport only gets a wheel (and tire) upgrade... really? Wheels? And chrome at that? Ugg.

The Audi A4 now has a great ride but still way louder than my BMW and but the handling is really good and inspires a lot of confidence, makes you want to corner harder.

So I've personally had the opposite experience when it comes to comparing the "ride" in my BMW compared to cars in the same class.
 

xapo99

Member
Jun 14, 2012
108
0
0
www.thelucidnutritionist.net
I have yet to drive a car that balances handling and ride quality like a BMW does (without the runflats). Smooth and quiet when I want it and handling beast when I want it.

All the other cars in it's class doesn't even come close from my testing. The Infinity is too loud and rough on the road but handles well. Even the Q series is louder than my 3 and the ride is WAY harsher but covered by the bolstered seats.

The MB C and E series are now very nice and the ride is quiet and smooth but they lack in the handling department. Even the C-Sport only gets a wheel (and tire) upgrade... really? Wheels? And chrome at that? Ugg.

The Audi A4 now has a great ride but still way louder than my BMW and but the handling is really good and inspires a lot of confidence, makes you want to corner harder.

So I've personally had the opposite experience when it comes to comparing the "ride" in my BMW compared to cars in the same class.

Took my 335D in for a service and had a 320D with runflats....I swear I lost two fillings driving over a grid in the road.
 

Jimzz

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2012
4,399
190
106
I think BMW tanked in the early 2000s with the design. They went from one of the most beautiful cars to one of the ugliest (to me anyways).

MB lost my way too as they soon started to somewhat copy BMW design language.

Design aside, both of these makers (Audi/VW included) lost me completely as I started to work on these cars and got a closer look at how things are designed etc.

Truth is, Germans always had issues with Electronics. YET they are now putting more worthless electronic crap into their cars than ever before thus making them more unreliable (more moving parts/features = less reliable).

I also learned that they are overly expensive and complex for no apparent reason.

I used to be able to put aside the reliability and cost, but once the design tanks.......there isn't really much left (to me).

I find new German cars to be very ugly (inside out).....maybe outside of very few. I used to take a 2nd look/admire and desire German cars.

That's no longer the case.

Maybe it was simply my ignorance or youth....who knows.



Yep just sold my E-350 4matic and replaced it with a 2nd Gen CTS.
I think the interior is nicer in the CTS than my e-class.

Can't speak of reliability yet as I have only had the CTS for less than a month but it would be hard to be worse than the Mercedes.
 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,776
31
81
I am a purist.

-Give me a 2-series-sized BMW.
-Make it the weight of an E30.
-Put the 333 HP NA I6 engine in it.
-50/50 weight dist.
-M Sport Suspension + LSD
-6 speed MT / RWD
-HID Lights / Heated Seats / Premium Sound System /Sunroof
-Hydraulic steering
-AM/FM radio with BT input for my smartphone
-No other electronic bells and whistles

I think the E36 and E46 M3 were the closest to this perfection. Everything else has been downhill. The E60 M5 V10 was a wonderful creation as well.
 

Dman8777

Senior member
Mar 28, 2011
426
8
81
Germans are obsessed with adding electronic assistants and doodads to their cars. I've been reading a german car magazine for 2 years now and they love to pan new cars which don't have all the newest features and assistants. My philosophy has always been KISS and I have no desire for any "features" outside of the things which have been standard on all but entry-level vehicles for the last 15 years or so (power locks and windows, AC, remote entry).
 

smackababy

Lifer
Oct 30, 2008
27,024
79
86
Yep just sold my E-350 4matic and replaced it with a 2nd Gen CTS.
I think the interior is nicer in the CTS than my e-class.

Can't speak of reliability yet as I have only had the CTS for less than a month but it would be hard to be worse than the Mercedes.

I think Cadillac has come a long way with the CTS. I'd buy a CTS sedan with all the trim over a C class any day and a CTS-V coupe over an M3 in a heart beat. Well, unless it is an E30 M3. =3

I haven't been impressed with MB's offerings in the past 10 years and BMW's in the past 20.
 

rh71

No Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
52,856
1,048
126
BMW has vastly improved their idrive - one of the best now.

MB is still superior in reliability but no, they haven't improved in the sporty/handling department. Even the C63 is just a "wild beast".
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
I grew up around mechanics, automotive workers, etc. and when I was younger it was always 'benz for the hood ornament, BMW for actual solid engineering'.

I'm curious about your age because prior to the introduction of the W210 models around 1995 Mercedes was largely viewed as bulletproof and impossible to destroy.

The W124 and earlier models were tanks and almost universally regarded as some of the most reliable and durable vehicles ever produced; a reputation largely shared by the preceding W123 and W114/W115 models. Basically, from about 1968 through 1995 any mechanic should have been very impressed with Mercedes.

BMW was always more sporting and more involving to drive, but Mercedes were widely (and properly) viewed as stunningly reliable and very well-engineered until the issues with the W210 models started cropping up in droves.

ZV
 

Imported

Lifer
Sep 2, 2000
14,679
23
81
I am a purist.

-Give me a 2-series-sized BMW.
-Make it the weight of an E30.
-Put the 333 HP NA I6 engine in it.
-50/50 weight dist.
-M Sport Suspension + LSD
-6 speed MT / RWD
-HID Lights / Heated Seats / Premium Sound System /Sunroof
-Hydraulic steering
-AM/FM radio with BT input for my smartphone
-No other electronic bells and whistles

I think the E36 and E46 M3 were the closest to this perfection. Everything else has been downhill. The E60 M5 V10 was a wonderful creation as well.

I'd want navigation but no sunroof (helmet clearance), no premium sound (engine/exhaust noise baby), no heated seats (man up).
 

JulesMaximus

No Lifer
Jul 3, 2003
74,472
867
126
I'd want navigation but no sunroof (helmet clearance), no premium sound (engine/exhaust noise baby), no heated seats (man up).

I'll have to mention that to a buddy of mine. He has been toying with the idea of picking up a new M3 and tacking it to Fontana to toss around the track there. He is 6'2" so add a helmet in a car with a sunroof and he probably won't fit.
 

Imported

Lifer
Sep 2, 2000
14,679
23
81
I got funny looks after returning from a test drive in an FRS when I went into my Prius to grab my helmet to make sure there was enough space. :whiste:
 

cbrsurfr

Golden Member
Jul 15, 2000
1,686
1
81
I got funny looks after returning from a test drive in an FRS when I went into my Prius to grab my helmet to make sure there was enough space. :whiste:

Haha nice! But you should have put it on FOR the test drive! lol
 

ViviTheMage

Lifer
Dec 12, 2002
36,190
85
91
madgenius.com
I always find MB a bit on the ugly side, but I put both in the same category for reliability.

I also find the E36 and E46 M3 pretty ugly, to the point I wouldn't want one ... way too boxy, but I can see the appeal that some might have for it. I love the newer M3 and even 3/1 series bodies, they just look clean and sleek.
 
Last edited:

rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
4,389
3,120
146
I'm curious about your age because prior to the introduction of the W210 models around 1995 Mercedes was largely viewed as bulletproof and impossible to destroy.

The W124 and earlier models were tanks and almost universally regarded as some of the most reliable and durable vehicles ever produced; a reputation largely shared by the preceding W123 and W114/W115 models. Basically, from about 1968 through 1995 any mechanic should have been very impressed with Mercedes.

BMW was always more sporting and more involving to drive, but Mercedes were widely (and properly) viewed as stunningly reliable and very well-engineered until the issues with the W210 models started cropping up in droves.

ZV

X2
 

waterjug

Senior member
Jan 21, 2012
930
0
76
I'm curious about your age because prior to the introduction of the W210 models around 1995 Mercedes was largely viewed as bulletproof and impossible to destroy.

The W124 and earlier models were tanks and almost universally regarded as some of the most reliable and durable vehicles ever produced; a reputation largely shared by the preceding W123 and W114/W115 models. Basically, from about 1968 through 1995 any mechanic should have been very impressed with Mercedes.

BMW was always more sporting and more involving to drive, but Mercedes were widely (and properly) viewed as stunningly reliable and very well-engineered until the issues with the W210 models started cropping up in droves.

ZV



I'm 32, so I was around 13 for the 1995 model MBs
 

JMapleton

Diamond Member
Nov 19, 2008
4,179
2
81
I'd want navigation but no sunroof (helmet clearance), no premium sound (engine/exhaust noise baby), no heated seats (man up).

They would sell approximately zero of those.

If you want a crappy car with no features and a big engine, buy an American car.
 

fstime

Diamond Member
Jan 18, 2004
4,384
5
81
I'm curious about your age because prior to the introduction of the W210 models around 1995 Mercedes was largely viewed as bulletproof and impossible to destroy.

The W124 and earlier models were tanks and almost universally regarded as some of the most reliable and durable vehicles ever produced; a reputation largely shared by the preceding W123 and W114/W115 models. Basically, from about 1968 through 1995 any mechanic should have been very impressed with Mercedes.

BMW was always more sporting and more involving to drive, but Mercedes were widely (and properly) viewed as stunningly reliable and very well-engineered until the issues with the W210 models started cropping up in droves.

ZV

W210's have been tanks in my experience, what has been so negative about yours exactly? I would say quality did not decrease until after the Chrysler merger and introduction of the W211 and W220.

Another thing to consider is, cars in the mid 90's did not have anywhere near the amount of electronics/gadgets to potentially fail.

People who bash Mercedes' quality usually 1) Never owned one, 2) Purchased a used model several years old with sketchy history 3) do not maintain their cars properly.

Also, Mercedes have historically been known to be innovators in the car industry. Basically, they were the test dummies for the auto industry, bringing new technology forward, and then having everyone else follow after some of the kinks were worked out.
 
Last edited:

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,512
21
81
W210's have been tanks in my experience, what has been so negative about yours exactly? I would say quality did not decrease until after the Chrysler merger and introduction of the W211 and W220.

The V6 engines were nowhere near the indestructible lumps of iron that the I6 engines were, and the W210 in general was not built with the same sense of "we expect the customer to own this car for 20 years" that the earlier models had been.

I've never owned a W210 Merc. I've had too many friends who had nothing but problems with theirs after 60,000 to 70,000 miles for me to make that mistake.

Before the W210, a Mercedes was generally considered to be a car that, with basic maintenance and care, would run 250,000 miles or more without issue. That simply cannot be said about the W210 models. At least, not the models that came to the US.

Another thing to consider is, cars in the mid 90's did not have anywhere near the amount of electronics/gadgets to potentially fail.

People who bash Mercedes' quality usually 1) Never owned one, 2) Purchased a used model several years old with sketchy history 3) do not maintain their cars properly.

Things like window regulators should never fail. Period. That's not a hugely complicated gadget.

Mercedes are far from "crap." But the W210 was not even close to the tank that the W124 and earlier models were. It's the same thing with Volvo. The Amazon, 140 and 240 series were absolute tanks. The 850 slightly less so, and then the P2 platform cars were vastly less reliable.

That's not to say that new models are junk; there are less reliable cars out there for sure. But when you compare newer models to the older ones it's just not a competition. The older models were built with longevity in mind. The newer models are built with much more of an eye towards swift replacement. Most people don't keep a car for even 100,000 miles, let alone any real mileage, so it doesn't make much sense for manufacturers to design vehicles with a service life too far beyond that.

And if the lack of reliability is all down to used models with "sketchy history" or improper maintenance, then the W124 cars should be that much worse (since they've had time to go through more owners and more time to endure bad maintenance). But they're not. The W124 cars are much better bets on the used market despite being at a significant age disadvantage to the W210 models.

Also, Mercedes have historically been known to be innovators in the car industry. Basically, they were the test dummies for the auto industry, bringing new technology forward, and then having everyone else follow after some of the kinks were worked out.

Mercedes is know to the Mercedes Marketing Department to have historically been "test dummies for the industry." To those of us who pay attention to cars, not so much.

They were magnificent in the '50s and '60s, yes, but then they stopped racing and started making rather boring cars.

If you want to talk about the big innovations of today, well, Airbags were used by Ford and GM before Mercedes tried them. Side airbags were pioneered by Volvo, and side curtain airbags were first brought to market by BMW. Lap belts were offered first by Ford and Nash, made standard first by Saab, and 3-point belts were first made standard by Volvo. Antilock brakes were made reliable by British firm Dunlop, and fully electronic 4-wheel ABS was first developed by Chrysler and put into production in 1971. Even electronic traction control was first put into production by Buick (also in 1971).

Mercedes has certainly come up with some nifty gadgets, but to characterize that as being "test dummies for the industry" is disingenuous. It was definitely true 50 years ago. It's much less true today.

ZV
 

Tsavo

Platinum Member
Sep 29, 2009
2,645
37
91
If you want an old BMW, get a new Cadillac. If you want an old Cadillac, buy a new BMW. With the exception of their M models, BMW seem to be turning into luxo barges.

As far as Mercs go, moar Bosch is not a good thing.
 
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