Hate Mask and Vaccine Mandates? Just Wait For The Electric Cars

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vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
Wtf kind of business analyst is that? That's the kind of stupid answer someone would give to just keep the company from being sued because they buried stuff in menus that led to distracted drivers get into crashes.

Right! I was told "it's big 'Old man screams at cloud' energy". I'm sorry that I like having a tactile feeling roller/dial/switch that I can control without taking my eyes off the road and sacrificing safety to myself or others. In regards to Rivian and their interface based motor actuated vents... just why. I don't want more little motors to break and more shit to fiddle with through a touch screen. I don't even want the capacitive touch button on the fender that triggers another little motor to open the charge door. More shit to go wrong. It's just not necessary.
 

Thump553

Lifer
Jun 2, 2000
12,726
2,501
126
Exactly one state, Massachusetts, has passed such a law. A few others have talked about it, but none have done so because the carmakers have lots of money and the corrupt politicians have deep pockets just waiting to be filled with that money not to do it.

There was even an article recently on how the auto manufacturers have all allied together and have filed a major lawsuit against that law. Two of them (Kia and Subaru) have even gone so far as to turn off all the connected car features for cars sold to Massachusetts residents as punishment for the law, and the courts are letting them get away with it. Worst part about it is that, in the end, the Massachusetts law will likely result in an unworkable solution anyway due to security issues.

In the end, if we have to depend on the current Congress (or, the current Supreme Court) to protect us from the carmakers, we are all screwed.

Sounds like a GREAT way to kill MA based Kia and Subaru dealerships. It's probably a half hour drive from anywhere in MA to the state line. Excellent news for dealers in CT, NH, VT and NY.
 

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,831
34,770
136
Right! I was told "it's big 'Old man screams at cloud' energy". I'm sorry that I like having a tactile feeling roller/dial/switch that I can control without taking my eyes off the road and sacrificing safety to myself or others. In regards to Rivian and their interface based motor actuated vents... just why. I don't want more little motors to break and more shit to fiddle with through a touch screen. I don't even want the capacitive touch button on the fender that triggers another little motor to open the charge door. More shit to go wrong. It's just not necessary.

It's a hell of a thing to plop down into my 330e, take in the veritable forrest of buttons and knobs, and think to myself "thank god for the Germans keeping things simple" so I don't drive off a bridge while trying to open the glove compartment or adjust a side mirror.
 
Dec 10, 2005
24,420
7,335
136
Right! I was told "it's big 'Old man screams at cloud' energy". I'm sorry that I like having a tactile feeling roller/dial/switch that I can control without taking my eyes off the road and sacrificing safety to myself or others. In regards to Rivian and their interface based motor actuated vents... just why. I don't want more little motors to break and more shit to fiddle with through a touch screen. I don't even want the capacitive touch button on the fender that triggers another little motor to open the charge door. More shit to go wrong. It's just not necessary.
Wait till these vehicles with everything in the infotainment system get hit with the Mazda/NPR bug that bricked the entire infotainment system. You won't even be able to do basic functions because of everything tied up in unnecessary computers.

Of course, companies want everything going through those central computers: they probably want to start collecting usage data and selling you your car as a service. Windshield wipers: $2/mo...
 
Reactions: repoman0

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
That's an important thing to me, the notion of operating everything through a giant tablet on the dash is appalling. Simple tactile controls, please.

I absolutely agree about having to control things on the screen. What frustrates me is that Tesla keeps removing things with this notion that "automated driving is coming, so you don't need it"... but they've been throwing us that same baited line for years and the current system is incapable of handling a number of situations according to Musk himself (construction, inclement weather, etc.). In a decent amount of rain, I will get messages on my screen about cameras being occluded, and in some cases, I've had reports that all cameras are having issues. Also, I've had messages about cameras having problems due to the rising/setting sun hitting the camera and causing excessive glare.

Another thing with the Model 3/Y is that the lack of a forward-mounted dash cluster causes you to have to look too often to the side. The other day, I used the Slacker streaming radio service to search up the band Dance with the Dead (electronica, industrial) because I wanted to get some of their songs favorited, so they'd end up playing when I just use the favorites playlist. The problem is that it would easily go 30+ songs without ever playing the band that I asked for, yet I'd get many repeats of some band that I did not specifically request. This is technically not Tesla's fault -- albeit, Tesla does bake in the lackluster Slacker as part of their $9.99/month Premium Connectivity Bundle, so they are pushing us to use them -- but given that I had to keep looking down to see the song was really frustrating. Back in my 2013 Ford, I could leave the current song on the right side of the dash cluster and easily see it.

Although, there is one thing that I am fond of... how a larger screen actually provides useful maps. I've never been a huge fan of maps in cars as the screen is often so small that the only thing it's good for is navigation commands. (Just hope you don't need to reroute quickly.) With Tesla's larger screen, which you only get some of that dedicated to the map, I can actually use quick glances to navigate manually just using the map. Being able to look over quickly and say, "I'm approaching ____ street; the one I need should be up next on the right." is rather nice. I've had navigation as an option since my 2007 car, and the Model 3 is the first car where I've felt that it was actually good.

EDIT:

Right! I was told "it's big 'Old man screams at cloud' energy". I'm sorry that I like having a tactile feeling roller/dial/switch that I can control without taking my eyes off the road and sacrificing safety to myself or others. In regards to Rivian and their interface based motor actuated vents... just why. I don't want more little motors to break and more shit to fiddle with through a touch screen. I don't even want the capacitive touch button on the fender that triggers another little motor to open the charge door. More shit to go wrong. It's just not necessary.

I've had times when it went from a light rain to a huge downpour very quickly, and let me tell you... it's NOT fun when that happens on a 70 MPH interstate and you're fumbling to use the touch screen to manually set the wipers to max speed while trying to keep an eye on the road around you.. at least what of it you can actually still see.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,843
13,774
146
I've had a Tesla Model 3 or around 3.5 years now, and I try to be quite clear about what I think are the downsides. Personally, if someone wanted to go green, I would suggest a plug-in hybrid over an EV unless they were heavily invested on the idea of an EV. My only complaint about any sort of hybrid setup is that you're mixing propulsion systems, which is effectively adding extra complexity. (I see additional complexity as just more things to break and more cost in the end.)

My biggest qualm with EVs is that the range you see quoted is just not what you should expect to see in real world use. As others have noted, you should only charge up to 80% unless you're going on a trip. If I'm going on a trip, I try to avoid charging up to 100%, because that will disable regenerative braking until there's enough lost capacity to enable it. (I usually go to 95%.) However, there are still other aspects to EVs that make them not as effective on longer trips. One of the biggest problems is that the vast majority of EVs have a fixed gear ratio per motor. In my RWD Model 3, I see a severe hit to efficiency if I'm heavily utilizing high-speed interstates (70 MPH+).

A few years back, I took a trip that was 130 miles in each direction, and I decided to take the simpler more relaxing route, which was almost all interstate. Even though my car is rated for 330 miles at full charge (or ~315 at 95%), I couldn't make the 260-mile round trip without recharging. (This was also in December, so it was probably around 40-50F.) The real kicker is that there were two Supercharging stations on my way back, but only one of them was working, and I was worried that I'd even make it there. The malfunctioning one was even at the "local" Tesla Service Center.

I also took a 900-mile (per way) round trip back in 2019, and I didn't have a very good time overall. I ran into a few issues with chargers not working well with no indication of their significantly reduced capability on the car's navigation. Also -- and this is arguably devolving more into my numerous complaints about Tesla -- the fact that I can't suggest a minimum state of charge is infuriating. The sheer idea that it wanted me to arrive at destinations with 10% or less charge is ludicrous given that its estimation is based upon previous usage, which cannot account for vastly different terrain. For example, traveling over the interstate in Virginia involves a lot of hills, which aren't great for efficiency.

There's also just the little things that eat away at you. For the past few days, my back-up camera has been stuttering and freezing, which rendered it nearly useless. It got really bad this morning as my audio subsystem started messing up too as the audio would randomly cut out, and come back in with maybe one speaker playing the music. I had to REBOOT MY CAR to fix the problem. As I've grown older, there is one thing that became very apparent to me... sometimes in life, you care about certain items in your life being reliable and having them just work. I don't need to tell my boss I'm going to be a few minutes late because my car needed to reboot.

Ultimately, what I dislike about Tesla can be summed up with this opinion... I don't think Tesla drives their own cars. There's no way someone could consider the user experience in that car to be acceptable if they actually had to use it every day. (I know Tesla people do actually drive the cars; it's meant to be slight hyperbole.)

I'll second the "unknowable" range issue. Coming from ICE vehicles where highway travel increased mileage, it's an eye opener to lose range at highway speeds. The times when I've reached the official wh/mile estimate has been on nice days in local low to moderate traffic. Doing 85mph eats into range. For daily driving worst on worst case doesn't cause an issue but for long trips I can see this issue estimating where to stop.

The rebooting of the car isn't something I've had to do yet, but there's been enough little software issues that it can be annoying. That being said the 2015 Suburban occasionally loses the touch display and backup camera until the car is turned on and off. Have had similar electrical gremlins with a 2020 Elantra. So the continued touchscreenification of cars is everywhere, it's just that Tesla takes it the farthest.

My husband has a Tesla and this is his chief complaint especially since things move in the interface...

He plans to sell it eventually and get something else as more options come to market. My kingdom for a Golf sized EV hot hatch from VW with good range but everybody here wants SUVs and trucks.
I don't find it too bad once everything is setup as most of the things I would want to do is handled automatically (including HVAC). When it inevitably isn't setup right it's a pain drilling down menus to get to a control or trying to hit touch sensitive targets while driving.
 

nakedfrog

No Lifer
Apr 3, 2001
58,537
12,844
136
Although, there is one thing that I am fond of... how a larger screen actually provides useful maps. I've never been a huge fan of maps in cars as the screen is often so small that the only thing it's good for is navigation commands. (Just hope you don't need to reroute quickly.) With Tesla's larger screen, which you only get some of that dedicated to the map, I can actually use quick glances to navigate manually just using the map. Being able to look over quickly and say, "I'm approaching ____ street; the one I need should be up next on the right." is rather nice. I've had navigation as an option since my 2007 car, and the Model 3 is the first car where I've felt that it was actually good.
Can't argue with that, I have a Garmin with a larger display set up in my VW that allows me to see that kind of detail.
I don't find it too bad once everything is setup as most of the things I would want to do is handled automatically (including HVAC). When it inevitably isn't setup right it's a pain drilling down menus to get to a control or trying to hit touch sensitive targets while driving.
I've never been in a vehicle with automatic HVAC that I liked the way the auto HVAC works, much prefer manual control.
 

repoman0

Diamond Member
Jun 17, 2010
4,539
3,461
136
Sounds like a GREAT way to kill MA based Kia and Subaru dealerships. It's probably a half hour drive from anywhere in MA to the state line. Excellent news for dealers in CT, NH, VT and NY.

… that’s really not how it works. Subaru and Kia know you live in Massachusetts even if you buy the car out of state. Still gets registered in MA and gets MA plates and you pay MA taxes.

Turning off “connected car” to me sounds like a feature rather than a bug anyway.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,651
10,515
136
There will be a few that refuse to give up their brodozers, but not enough to matter. Electrics are good enough now for most people, improvements in battery's, charging, and infrastructure are still needed, but the tech is there.
The simple reality is operating cost for an electric is way lower than an ICE.
My only real gripe with electrics is the tendency to load them with gadgets. I don't need a Bluetooth washer fluid monitor, I don't need cabin mood lighting, or a howitzer sound system.
If only this had come out about 20 years ago. I say DOA.

Revolutionary 25,000-RPM Engine Is The Next Step Of Internal Combustion | CarBuzz
 
Reactions: Pohemi

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
23,651
10,515
136
I've had a Tesla Model 3 or around 3.5 years now, and I try to be quite clear about what I think are the downsides. Personally, if someone wanted to go green, I would suggest a plug-in hybrid over an EV unless they were heavily invested on the idea of an EV. My only complaint about any sort of hybrid setup is that you're mixing propulsion systems, which is effectively adding extra complexity. (I see additional complexity as just more things to break and more cost in the end.)

My biggest qualm with EVs is that the range you see quoted is just not what you should expect to see in real world use. As others have noted, you should only charge up to 80% unless you're going on a trip. If I'm going on a trip, I try to avoid charging up to 100%, because that will disable regenerative braking until there's enough lost capacity to enable it. (I usually go to 95%.) However, there are still other aspects to EVs that make them not as effective on longer trips. One of the biggest problems is that the vast majority of EVs have a fixed gear ratio per motor. In my RWD Model 3, I see a severe hit to efficiency if I'm heavily utilizing high-speed interstates (70 MPH+).

A few years back, I took a trip that was 130 miles in each direction, and I decided to take the simpler more relaxing route, which was almost all interstate. Even though my car is rated for 330 miles at full charge (or ~315 at 95%), I couldn't make the 260-mile round trip without recharging. (This was also in December, so it was probably around 40-50F.) The real kicker is that there were two Supercharging stations on my way back, but only one of them was working, and I was worried that I'd even make it there. The malfunctioning one was even at the "local" Tesla Service Center.

I also took a 900-mile (per way) round trip back in 2019, and I didn't have a very good time overall. I ran into a few issues with chargers not working well with no indication of their significantly reduced capability on the car's navigation. Also -- and this is arguably devolving more into my numerous complaints about Tesla -- the fact that I can't suggest a minimum state of charge is infuriating. The sheer idea that it wanted me to arrive at destinations with 10% or less charge is ludicrous given that its estimation is based upon previous usage, which cannot account for vastly different terrain. For example, traveling over the interstate in Virginia involves a lot of hills, which aren't great for efficiency.

There's also just the little things that eat away at you. For the past few days, my back-up camera has been stuttering and freezing, which rendered it nearly useless. It got really bad this morning as my audio subsystem started messing up too as the audio would randomly cut out, and come back in with maybe one speaker playing the music. I had to REBOOT MY CAR to fix the problem. As I've grown older, there is one thing that became very apparent to me... sometimes in life, you care about certain items in your life being reliable and having them just work. I don't need to tell my boss I'm going to be a few minutes late because my car needed to reboot.

Ultimately, what I dislike about Tesla can be summed up with this opinion... I don't think Tesla drives their own cars. There's no way someone could consider the user experience in that car to be acceptable if they actually had to use it every day. (I know Tesla people do actually drive the cars; it's meant to be slight hyperbole.)
People are used to shitty buggy software until it powers their cars.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
8,420
1,047
126
My biggest problems with them are the fact that the batteries only last a few years and you can't replace them yourself.

Regarding infrastructure, while it be there in the large cities and major industrialized areas, it isn't anywhere else. I think in my entire county, there is exactly one known charger and it isn't even available to the public (the local steel mill installed one for the exclusive use of their very rich CEO and his excessively rich friends).

I personally hope for a breakthrough on hydrogen power. I know they have made strides with creation of hydrogen on demand very recently, but who knows how long it will take to actually get something useable.

going on 10 years on the battery in our volt and almost do degradation. so.. nope, you are totally wrong.

hydrogen is very ineffecent as a way to store energy and the fuel cell is heavy and slow to produce electricity.

everyone in this thread that has said "the fact that" or similar has been totally wrong.

we will be replacing our Volt with a machE or similar and its going to be fantastic.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
Yeah the idea of batteries going bad or losing capacity is a bit of a nothingburger to me. My C-max hybrid was almost 10 years old and still worked about as good as it did new. Prius batteries have been rock solid. I haven't read any significant issues with Tesla battery longevity either. Between manufacturer built in battery tending (Ford locked me out of 10% of my battery for long term battery health), not charging above 80% regularly and keeping them plugged in to keep the battery conditioned when not in use they seem pretty bullet proof.

Bigger issues are horror stories like manufacturing issues causing fires or similar problems like LG is facing in the Bolts. Burning lithium is bad news. Between cabin conditioning and the nature of EV's not needing to warm up like a combustion engine the smoothness of the drivetrain and 1 pedal driving is such a superior experience than any ICE I've owned in the past.

Seriously, 1 pedal driving has broke me. I don't want to own another car without it.
 
Reactions: herm0016

Pohemi

Diamond Member
Oct 2, 2004
9,366
12,740
146
I only have two left. I miss the 200W floor lamp of Ra.
Maybe it was 500W. It was the only reason we didn't kill ourselves in the Kentucky winter, month after month of gray, gloomy drudgery.
Yeah, they were bright as hell on full power (most of them had the turn knob dimmer switch), but they also could start fires with how hot they got, and it didn't take long to heat up after turning it on. After it was on for 8 hours straight, you better not put your hand near the top of it, lol.

I have a very similar (style) one now but with LEDs. The flat plate type top can spin and tilt to aim, or just point straight at the ceiling. It isn't RGB (thankfully) but does have the different color temps from quite yellowish with almost no blue to nearly harsh on your retinas cold blue. It has a wireless remote too which I scoffed at when I took it out of the box, but now I've never used the on-lamp controls since I got it.
 

Juiblex

Banned
Sep 26, 2016
500
252
136
I’ve got an electric car. Here’s the long and short of it.

(snip)

Interesting. Thanks for sharing your experience. I haven't ran into a single person with an electric vehicle yet. So it's interesting to see how it's working out.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
Interesting. Thanks for sharing your experience. I haven't ran into a single person with an electric vehicle yet. So it's interesting to see how it's working out.

I've documented some thoughts/experiences with my Mach-E over here. It's my first electric vehicle.

 
Reactions: Paratus

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,697
5,431
136
Tesla superchargers for example are about $0.25 / kWh.

That is just wonderful.

So, back in the real world, the chargers start at $0.43 per kwh, with an additional per minute rate starting at $0.12 per minute.


I have a plug in hybrid, I put gas in it for a reason. It is cheaper. A lot cheaper. A lot faster to. And more convenient.
 
Last edited:

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,403
8,199
126
With Electrify America you can pay a monthly $4 subscription and it knocks it down to $.31 kWh. Pays for itself in a single charge. They also have free charging on holiday weekends. We've used that A TON. After hours at home I pay $.12 kWh.

 

shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
82,854
17,365
136
I'd just like to take this moment and remind everyone that allegedly we could have had electric cars a hundred years ago and all of this would be moot.
 

Leeea

Diamond Member
Apr 3, 2020
3,697
5,431
136
I'd just like to take this moment and remind everyone that allegedly we could have had electric cars a hundred years ago and all of this would be moot.
Those 1st gen units had their own issues.

Limited number of cycles on the lead acid batteries, low energy density, and heavy. The brushed drive motors had poor efficiency and poor life span. Yes, the brushes can be swapped, but they also burn the commutator at those sorts of low volt high amperage setups.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo
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