Have they already won??

[systemjockey]

My only fear is that my civil liberties will be encroached upon under the guise of "safety." The truth is, there is no safety. We are a large and powerful country. That makes us prone to attack. People need to get used to that fact. This whole concept of safety is an illusion, and that illusion has been broken. The only real way we would be safe is if armed guards walked the streets, spot-checked your home at random, had cameras on every corner, and monitored all of our correspondence and conversations. Does that sound like America. Not mine! The News agencies certainly aren't helping the situation any with all of the reports about biological threats and this whole "anthrax scare." I swear, I wouldn't be surprised if the terrorists watch 60 minutes and Dateline to come up with ideas for their next attack!

 

[Yeeny]

Elledan: While I agree with you, that the history of the US with other countries is not exactly something to be proud of, I disagree with your idea of pulling back. We have hurt alot of people, and we owe alot of apologies for sticking our nose in where it does not belong, I agree with that much. But come on, they flew planes into buildings and killed over 5000 innocent people. Mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters all died, because of some twisted act of revenge. We cannot pull back until they are stopped, no matter how long that takes. If we do, we will never feel safe again. They have to stop these people, even if it requires them being taken out one by one, for the safety of our children, and other children all over the world. You may think your safe where you are right now, but if you think for one second these people will stop with America, you are crazy. They want to take over, and make everyone in the world exactly like them. And if we allowed them to win against us, by turning our head and saying oops, we are sorry while they kill more of our people, then the rest of the world would fall. I am never one for violence, and I hate the idea of anyone dying. But its come down to us or them, and to be honest, I would rather it was them, and that my children grow up safe. I know you have a problem with the US, you have made that clear. But please, until you can understand how we feel, just be quiet. You have no idea how we feel, how sickened we are every time the tv comes on with footage of the aftermath of what they did to our people, how choked up you get when you see them bringing out another body, and know that was someones loved one. So if you want to pick at the US, and pick your little arguments, fine. But for Gods sakes, have some respect for us, and how we feel, instead of trying to get your jollies off causing another argument.

 

[Tauren]

<<Tauren

Do you deny the world almost literally stopped that morning? Everyone I know plodded on in total shock not really thinking....

Support you allegation or STFU!>>


Kiss your mother with that mouth do you?

I have made no allegation what so ever. YOU made a statement and have not supported it. I merely thought it was extremely funny. The only endeavors that may have been affected, are ideological. And as long as we are distinct individuals(i.e., not 'the Borg') we will always have disagreements.

 

[Wag]

<< You're fooling yourself. Those terrorists knew exactly what would happen after those attacks. They knew that the world would unite against terrorism. They knew that the US wouldn't rest before having found those behind the attacks. They knew that the US would strike against any terrorist-cell they could find. >>



Bin Laden's main theory is that if enough havok is wreaked on American citizens, we would eventually back down and pull out of the Middle East. He uses examples such as our pull-out of Lebanon after the barracks bombing and Somalia. This is his one serious miscalculation, he has underestimated the resolve of the US population. An attack on American soil will not stand. Just like the Japanese after Pearl Harbor, he has raised a mighty giant. We will not stop untill he and all his associates are erraticated.

 

[Elledan]

<< <<You're fooling yourself. Those terrorists knew exactly what would happen after those attacks. They knew that the world would unite against terrorism. They knew that the US wouldn't rest before having found those behind the attacks. They knew that the US would strike against any terrorist-cell they could find.

It's why the attacks against the US aren't over yet. It will probably get much worse.>>


O.K....Just how exactly am I fooling myself? I see nothing in your statement that disproves the reality of what I said. >>

In your post, you suggested that those terrorists attacked the US and expected the country to fall apart in mass-hysteria. I disproved that in my post.

 

[ToBeMe]

<< My advice to the US is to pull back its troops, decrease support for Israel and to do its homework before taking any action. It's time for the US to review its history, its involvement in the politics of countless countries and its attitude towards the rest of the world. >>


LOL! And exactly WTF makes you more knowledgable than the leaders of several nations worldwide????? LOL!



<< The alternative? If the US continues along this path, it might very well result in the total destruction of the US as we know it. >>


Oh.....if the US continues........pardon me Ella, but it seems there are a few more than just the US in agreement here! Besides......you sound just a bit to overzealous about this statement.......

 

[Tauren]

<<In your post, you suggested that those terrorists attacked the US and expected the country to fall apart in mass-hysteria. I disproved that in my post.>>

I just re-read my post and I don't think it implies that at all. I was responding to tagej's statement that they had won by causing hysteria and fear. I don't think that is a victory. I totally agree with you that this is the retaliation they expected. But, I disagree completely with the notion that we shouldn't be.

 

[ToBeMe]

<< You're fooling yourself. Those terrorists knew exactly what would happen after those attacks. They knew that the world would unite against terrorism. They knew that the US wouldn't rest before having found those behind the attacks. They knew that the US would strike against any terrorist-cell they could find. >>


Might I ask exactly how you know this for a fact?????? Most world leaders seem to disagree. Most felt that the terrorists thought that the US would have difficulty finding exactly whom to blame and that the US would not garner worldwide support as they have.........Blair has stated this, as has Putin............but I suppose once again Ella knows better............ LOL!

 

[Elledan]

<< Elledan: While I agree with you, that the history of the US with other countries is not exactly something to be proud of, I disagree with your idea of pulling back. We have hurt alot of people, and we owe alot of apologies for sticking our nose in where it does not belong, I agree with that much. But come on, they flew planes into buildings and killed over 5000 innocent people. Mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters all died, because of some twisted act of revenge. >>

Correction: this action was not done out of revenge, it was pure terrorism: it's part of a larger plan.


<< We cannot pull back until they are stopped, no matter how long that takes. If we do, we will never feel safe again. >>

I already explained in my post that destroying a whole network of terrorist cells by violence is impossible. In fact, it's more likely that the US will have ceased to exist before terrorism against the US ceases.


<< I know you have a problem with the US, you have made that clear. But please, until you can understand how we feel, just be quiet. >>

I'm trying to offer some insight in a complicated problem. Excuse me for trying to help.


<< You have no idea how we feel, how sickened we are every time the tv comes on with footage of the aftermath of what they did to our people, how choked up you get when you see them bringing out another body, and know that was someones loved one. >>

Actually, I've observed Human behaviour long enough to know how people feel after such an atrocity. However, it's wise to seperate those images and emotions from the issue which lies ahead of us. It could prove to be fatal to let those emotions influence our judgement.


<< So if you want to pick at the US, and pick your little arguments, fine. But for Gods sakes, have some respect for us, and how we feel, instead of trying to get your jollies off causing another argument. >>

Like I said, I'm trying to offer some insight in a complicated problem. If all of you rather want to wallow in your own misery and caress sweet feelings of revenge, while imaging those monsters who caused you so much pain burn and die in most gruesome ways, dream about inflicting pain on those you hate, enjoy thinking about them, covered with their own blood, their throats slit, their hearts ripped out of their chests while it was still beating and stuffed into their mouths, then I won't object. But know this: if you can not care about your enemy, you're nothing but a beast, devoid of emotions, except for a putrid hatred, devouring you from the inside.

I do not choose sides in this conflict and will never do so.

 

[Elledan]

<< <<In your post, you suggested that those terrorists attacked the US and expected the country to fall apart in mass-hysteria. I disproved that in my post.>>

I just re-read my post and I don't think it implies that at all. I was responding to tagej's statement that they had won by causing hysteria and fear. I don't think that is a victory. I totally agree with you that this is the retaliation they expected. But, I disagree completely with the notion that we shouldn't be. >>

That the US shouldn't be attacking? With all due respect, I don't think the US shouldn't attack. It's just that violence does not seem to be the most logical choice in this situation. There are different ways of attacking than by weapons.

ToBeMe would you mind ceasing with those personal attacks? I don't think it's an honorable way of debating.

 

[Tauren]

<<That the US shouldn't be attacking? With all due respect, I don't think the US shouldn't attack. It's just that violence does not seem to be the most logical choice in this situation. There are different ways of attacking than by weapons.>>


Pacifism has always failed against violence.

I feel that showing these terrorists and their ilk, that this behaviour will not be permitted by the world at large, is the most prudent course of action.

 

[Yeeny]

Like I said, I'm trying to offer some insight in a complicated problem. If all of you rather want to wallow in your own misery and caress sweet feelings of revenge, while imaging those monsters who caused you so much pain burn and die in most gruesome ways, dream about inflicting pain on those you hate, enjoy thinking about them, covered with their own blood, their throats slit, their hearts ripped out of their chests while it was still beating and stuffed into their mouths, then I won't object. But know this: if you can not care about your enemy, you're nothing but a beast, devoid of emotions, except for a putrid hatred, devouring you from the inside.


The only beast I have seen is you, with your posts about how handicapped people should be killed, because they are a waste to society, and the other wonderful things you have said in the past. You will say handicapped children are a waste and should be killed, but us looking to stop the people that threaten us in our own homes you think we should leave alone? I am not even going to respond to you anymore, you are nothing but a waste of time and effort, and I have better things to do. Grow up.

 

[ToBeMe]

Hey Ella........you say what we are doing won't work???? It's not yet confirmed but MANY news agancies are now reporting that the US has captured Bin Laden........... I realize this isn't the end of the story even if it is true, but, it would be a huge step toward defusing further problems!

I will apologize for attacking you personally, but, you must understand that you, in basicly attacking the US, our leaders and our methods....even if you won't admitt it, you are, are attacking me..............

 

[Tominator]

Tauren

Seems all you ever do is cut and paste comments. Take them completely out of context and babble about them.....you after post count or what?

Maybe you were just afraid I'd use the "G" word?

 

[hungrypete]

I'm not afraid of public places. In fact I'd love to hop on a plane and go kick some ass. The terrorism is only 'working' on some cowards and some misguided youth. Why don't you go ask the family of a victim if they have won, I bet they surprise you with their resolve to remove such violent political groups from the world.

 

[Aihyah]

The motivation behind a dispicable act like the WTC attack is to 'terrorize' the population, to remove their feeling of 'safety', to remove their comfort zone

well they also want us to "reconsider our foreign policy". meaning we should do no such thing cept for the part about hunting down and killing the bastards and anyone supprting em.

 

[Tauren]

<<Tauren

Do you deny the world almost literally stopped that morning? Everyone I know plodded on in total shock not really thinking....

Support you allegation or STFU!>>


<<Kiss your mother with that mouth do you?

I have made no allegation what so ever. YOU made a statement and have not supported it. I merely thought it was extremely funny. The only endeavors that may have been affected, are ideological. And as long as we are distinct individuals(i.e., not 'the Borg') we will always have disagreements.>>


That is a well stated reply. You still have not made one. If that is too complex for you let me know and I will use less confusing verabge for you. Now before you reply with more banter please make sure you support your earlier statement.

 

[Tominator]

I was asked, as was everyone, about my thoughts since Sept 11. I expressed my thoughts and you instantly tried to express that everyone here shared your opinion of it....let's see if I can cut and paste...



<< That is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in 32 years. Please make more of them, so that myself and others get a good laugh. >>



...and so we now see you magically know what everyone is thinking and have the gaul to pretend so...

I see nothing in ANY of your post to note. You just regurtitate what I've been seeing discussed by experts on various news sources. Nothing new at all.....you are just a pretender in that regard.

I find myself agreeing with you on most of your posts, but what you say is nothing new.

I expressed my thoughts and I'd bet most Americans would agreewith me. Maybe not 100%, but then that is what leads to discussion and not..



<< That is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in 32 years. Please make more of them, so that myself and others get a good laugh. >>



You want to mix it up? Ask anyone around here if I've ever shirked a lively discussion!

 

[Spagina]

Non-violence will NEVER work against an enemy that is looking to annihilate all the "infidels" the world across. These people proved how sick they were by cramming 2 loaded civilian jetliners into two of the largest sky scrapers in the world. Now if your telling us that non-violence would work here, then I would throw you in the same delusional category that most of these terrorist half-wits reside in. This is why I can't stand the pacifists right now, most of them scream to stop the racist war, but they have no alternate solutions to fix the problem. Instead they just seem to find it fun to protest just for the sake of protesting.

The only way these terrorists will get the message is...

1) The US should not back off or pull out of the Middle East or Israel. This was undoubtedly one of their goals. They assumed that if they did this, the US would cower in absolute fear and would pull out of the Middle East. Thankfully, the US didn't. If they did, it would create such a dangerous precedent that it would turn into a free-for-all on the US. Most terrorists or dissenters who disliked US involvement in a particular country would undoubtedly commit a heinous act on the US populace in order to get the US to pull involvement out of a region in fear. By showing that we will not back off from the region, it will prevent other sickos from getting the smart idea that blowing up a bunch of our people will sway us to listen to them or demands.

2) We show absolute resolve in our effort to wipe the terrorists out. The US and the world needs to continue full steam ahead until the majority of the terrorists cells and their sponsor nations are wiped out from the face of the earth. This is not the time to be sympathetic to the terrorist cause or spineless. These people have already shown how manipulative and hypocritical they are. They are manipulative in calling for the Islamic Jihad. They try to sway all the uneducated muslims to attack or protest us because they tell them that is a pure war against Islam. They are hypocritcal in the matter of death. If Osama and his buddies are not afraid of death, why do they hide in a cave all the time while they get impressionable, brain washed youth to do all their work? It's sick, extremely sick, and the only resolution to this to plainly wipe them out. You can't reason with an enemy like this, they purposely keep their people stupid (i.e. Taliban, Iraq), then they purposely misinterpret the Qu'ran for these people in order to build up an anti-US fervor in the idiots the world across. The only true message that these people will understand is their realization of how stupid they were in the few seconds before their deaths.

That being said, non-violence will never be the answer in this situation. Non-violence would only bring across the message that we won't retaliate for being hit, and only THEN will you begin to see more Americans dying.

 

[Tauren]

<<...and so we now see you magically know what everyone is thinking and have the gaul to pretend so...>>

If you re-read my above quote it says "myself and others".


<<Every endeavor mankind has worked and sweated for was driven to it's knees on that day!>>

Your quote, above, states; "Every endeavor". I think this is an absurd blanket statement.


<<Do you deny the world almost literally stopped that morning?>>

I agree, for the most part, with this statement, but disagree with giving the terrorists the credit for bring EVERY endeavor made by mankind to it's knees. Which is a statement you have made no effort to support.

 

[Elledan]

<< <<That the US shouldn't be attacking? With all due respect, I don't think the US shouldn't attack. It's just that violence does not seem to be the most logical choice in this situation. There are different ways of attacking than by weapons.>>


Pacifism has always failed against violence. >>

Point taken, but I wasn't talking, or even referring to, pacifism.



<< I feel that showing these terrorists and their ilk, that this behaviour will not be permitted by the world at large, is the most prudent course of action. >>

Those terrorists expected the US and any allies to strike against them. We did. Tell me, why is this course of action considered to be a way to show 'these terrorists and their ilk, that this behaviour will not be permitted by the world(..)'? From what I've seen, I must conclude that the US and its allies are responding exactly like the terrorists have anticipated. We're merely following their plan.

 

[jjones]

once again the mighty moron, elledan, speaks. what's the use in having discussion with apologists like you?

 

[Tauren]

<<From what I've seen, I must conclude that the US and its allies are responding exactly like the terrorists have anticipated. We're merely following their plan.>>


I see the point that you are trying to make, and I agree it is valid. But, what else is there to do except punish them for the crimes that they have committed and prevent future ones.

 

[Elledan]

<< The only beast I have seen is you, with your posts about how handicapped people should be killed, because they are a waste to society, >>

For the zillionth time, I was saying exactly the opposite.


<< and the other wonderful things you have said in the past. You will say handicapped children are a waste and should be killed, >>

Again, that's not what I've said, or would ever consider to be a logical choice.


<< but us looking to stop the people that threaten us in our own homes you think we should leave alone? >>

Quite the opposite. I'm just warning that the current course of action can only be a short-term solution. I'm merely suggesting a long-term solution.


<< I am not even going to respond to you anymore, you are nothing but a waste of time and effort, and I have better things to do. Grow up. >>

Actually, it sounds to me that you are the one who needs to grow up.
Wait, don't feel insulted. I'm not looking to bash people here or anywhere, I do not seek conflicts because I enjoy 'fanning the flames', as I believe it's often called. I'm simply defending my opinion, and isn't that what everyone else here is doing?

 

[Elledan]

<< Hey Ella........you say what we are doing won't work???? >>

Yup, you got it


<< It's not yet confirmed but MANY news agancies are now reporting that the US has captured Bin Laden........... I realize this isn't the end of the story even if it is true, but, it would be a huge step toward defusing further problems! >>

Agreed, but I doubt that no further terrorist attacks will happen in the US if Bin Laden is really captured. Terrorist-cells are quite independent and those in Bin Laden's network are assumed to have received detailed information on all attacks which were planned, so I wouldn't break out the champagne yet.



<< I will apologize for attacking you personally, but, you must understand that you, in basicly attacking the US, our leaders and our methods....even if you won't admitt it, you are, are attacking me.............. >>

I'm not 'attacking' the US, I merely disagree with their current course of action. I fail to see how it would solve any more problems than it would create.