Have they already won??

[Elledan]

<< <<From what I've seen, I must conclude that the US and its allies are responding exactly like the terrorists have anticipated. We're merely following their plan.>>


I see the point that you are trying to make, and I agree it is valid. But, what else is there to do except punish them for the crimes that they have committed and prevent future ones. >>

I don't believe this... that's the whole thing I've been trying to make clear in just about every post of mine on this subject. Tell me, is my reasoning really that hard to understand?

 

[Tominator]

Now, if you had started on that note, we would not have had this exchange. You last post proves you can actually discuss something. Next time just turn off attack mode before pressing the keys.....





<< Every endeavor mankind has worked and sweated for was driven to it's knees on that day! >>



I'm sure they called them The World Trade Towers for a reason. They represented to Bin Laden his worst nightmare and that is why he targeted them not one, but two times.

Every Nation in the World has been struggling to open up free trade and we can argue the real meaning of free trade in another thread. Trade above everything else spreads wealth and therefore health and education. It all leads to more wealth and many get their first taste of freedom and independence because of this interaction. It is the single most important interaction any two countries can have.

On that morning as the World watched in horror, Bin Laden negated the most powerful country in history. Our superior military, science, thinking, you name it, was for a breif time in history non existant as an advantage. Our wealth did not matter. Nothing mattered.....we were horrified and awestruck. Nothing else mattered...not here, not anywhere.....

Terrorists are afraid of Freedom. Of education and most assurdly of trade. He is not stupid. He knew how, where and why...but he could not forsee the future.....and now each day, written on various nose cones of every type of high explosive device man has ever designed....are written phrases like...

Osama Bin Laden...this bombs for you!

He has done what diplomats and soldiers. Trade negotiaters and politicians have failed at doing....United the World...

It is up to us how that will affect our daily lives. Quit spreading rumors. They are not useful. We had better watch and learn. That is what HE is doing...

 

[ToBeMe]

<< I don't believe this... that's the whole thing I've been trying to make clear in just about every post of mine on this subject. Tell me, is my reasoning really that hard to understand? >>


LOL! Absolutely not! Hard to agree with, Hard to imagine actually working, Yes........Hard to understand....No!

 

[Tauren]

I re-read all of your posts and this is the closest I could find to anything specific:

<<My advice to the US is to pull back its troops, decrease support for Israel and to do its homework before taking any action. It's time for the US to review its history, its involvement in the politics of countless countries and its attitude towards the rest of the world.>>

Everything else you have said is rhetoric. I mean what exactly should we do? All you've said is what we shouldn't do and then you made the above quoted statement.

<<Tell me, is my reasoning really that hard to understand?>>

No. But, what you think would be the best course of true action, yes.

 

[Tauren]

Tominator - I now understand what it is you were trying to say. You said it much more eloquently in your last post.

 

[gopunk]

well there wasn't much alternative... no matter what we did, our lives would have changed as a result. so i guess in that way they did win. but it won't do them much good when they're dead

 

[Tominator]

Tauren

Me ....eloquent? Now don't start calling me names...

This is just one of the reasons I trust Republicans more than Democrats.....better track record. However I would be supporting Gore right now if things were different and I doubt his response would be much different than we have now.

 

[bigdog1218]

do a lot of the people in this forum actually think that bombing afghanistan is going to solve anything, before all this bombing started news reports said that bin laden's organization had more than 50,000 people in over a 100 countries, bombing afghanistan is only going to enrage them even more

 

[21Jumper]

To answer the question, yes. Americans will never admit it in public though. But deep inside that's how most people feel.

 

[jjones]

bigdog1218 - i got a better idea.

<sarcasm> why don't we just keep filling up airplanes and keep inviting osama's buddies on board. eventually they'll kill themselves off. </sarcasm>

 

[ToBeMe]

<< do a lot of the people in this forum actually think that bombing afghanistan is going to solve anything, before all this bombing started news reports said that bin laden's organization had more than 50,000 people in over a 100 countries, bombing afghanistan is only going to enrage them even more >>


{sarcasim} You're right........doing absolutely nothing would have been so much better........then they could feel free to come in and kill more of us systematicly without the threat of any retaliation.....{end sarcasim}

 

[Athanasius]

We are afraid because we are afraid to die. The fear of death holds many in bondage their entire lives. We live in the illusion that we are not afraid because the "normal life" prior to 9/11 in the U.S.A. made it possible for us to embrace the illusion that this was a safe world where death could be kept sanitized and quarantined in the hospital or the funeral home or the nursing home.

Now, the false security of the illusion has been shatterred and we are left face to face with this fear. The terrorists wield the power given them by this fear.

Overcoming the fear of death is true freedom. Once the fear is faced and overcome, then our minds will be unchained and we can instill more security measures (as a matter of common sense) and yet not grab the shatterred remnants of our illusion/security blanket and sew them back together with the meager thread of increased security measures.

When we no longer fear death, then we will be a free people and the terrorists will have no power over us.

 

[Helznicht]

"Tell me, is my reasoning really that hard to understand"

No, but your understanding lack and reason.


Ill be blunt, the US is flexing its muscle right now. We are showing the world that we are a super power.

We will remove Afganistans military strength, remove the Taliban and remove Osama. We are showing the world we will not allow terrorist activities to go on without punishment.

You talk about the 100s of cells of these terrorist groups and that we cant get them all, your right, we will require all countries to arrest and cut-off these groups. We are drawing a line in the sand saying your countries have 2 stances.

Full Support including being pro-active against these terrorist cells: England, Germany, Russia, France
And its working here, look how many have been arrested.

Zero support: Countries that refuse to change and continue to harbor terrorists.


Right now there are passive support countries such as Iran and Pakistan who politically support the war but either have no desire to get rid of terrorist cells, or lack the ability to do so.

When Afganistan is over, the US will force the issue with them, become pro-active and oust these cells, step aside and let us remove them, or share the fate of the Taliban. And the Harder we hit the Taliban, the easier it will be to let these countries see the light.

We will fight this war by removing the places for them to hide.

And its working, just take a look at the PLO and Arafat. Arresting know terrorist cells, arresting militant clerics, and stopping pro-taliban protests with force. Countries will learn that its better to remove these groups than harbor them. And if they dont, they will share the same fate as Afganistan.

 

[CocaCola5]

<<
LOL! And exactly WTF makes you more knowledgable than the leaders of several nations worldwide????? LOL! >>



"People at the top"(politicians, pres) never base their action on clear logic or even wisdom for that matter, they base them on, you may call it, edit:natural contraints of a country which are, ego(the false ego of the individual leaders), people(national sentiment, ignorance), and at the bottom, logistics(financial, army size).

 

[ToBeMe]

<< When we no longer fear death, then we will be a free people and the terrorists will have no power over us. >>


OK.....you had some nice things to say there, but, I have to say this and I believe many will agree, unless you had some kind of "deeper" meaning, anyone whom says they do not fear death is one of three things.......Lying, fooling themselves, or dumber than the people whom flew those airliners into the WTC!

To not have fear of death is irrational and illogical! Nobody desires not to exist! If you're meaning not fearing death because of a religious belief of "afterlife"..........I don't buy into that! If that were true, why would people not be just going out looking for ways to die?????

Now, if you're speaking of not living in fear of being killed.........now that is a whole different thing, but, that's not what you state! While I served in the USMC I participated in several operations where it was very possible one could have been shot, or killed in many ways, but, while I was not shaking in fear of being killed.......I was very aware of the possibility of death.......and that scared every one of us! I had an Officer once tell me that anyone whom says he's not afraid to die didn't belong here because they were exactly the type of "loose cannon" whom could get lots of men killed........................

 

[cuteybunny]

Isn't weird that pakistan, a neighboring of afghanistan, don't do much to help us? I have a feeling that they are the one telling the taliban what is going to happen next and may also helped them plan their attack on 9-11, i feel we are being double crossed. its citizen are celebrating over 9/11? what with that? there's something not right about that.

 

[ToBeMe]

<< "People at the top"(politicians, pres) never base their action on clear logic or even wisdom for that matter, they base them on, you may call it, edit:natural contraints of a country which are, ego(the false ego of the individual leaders), people(national sentiment, ignorance), and at the bottom, logistics(financial, army size). >>


Say what?????? So by your line of thought, England should have never fought back against Germany, the US should have never entered WWII, the US should have never fought the Brittish for independence, etc., etc., etc.?????? I agree all those points may come into consideration, but, to say that a nation just blidly goes into a war for those reasons only, at least in most cases, is false............

 

[ToBeMe]

<< Isn't weird that pakistan, a neighboring of afghanistan, don't do much to help us? I have a feeling that they are the one telling the taliban what is going to happen next and may also helped them plan their attack on 9-11, i feel we are being double crossed. its citizen are celebrating over 9/11? what with that? there's something not right about that. >>


The Pakistani Government has agreed to fully support us, but, a large segment of it's people agree with the Taliban. In fact, the taliban rule was originated in Pakistan. The Government just reallized that not supporting the coalition would have most likely resulted in them being included in an attack and they knew that agreeing with us would benifit them with a LOT of aid and dropped sanctions! I do agree though, they do seem shakey at best................

 

[CocaCola5]

<<

<< "People at the top"(politicians, pres) never base their action on clear logic or even wisdom for that matter, they base them on, you may call it, edit:natural contraints of a country which are, ego(the false ego of the individual leaders), people(national sentiment, ignorance), and at the bottom, logistics(financial, army size). >>


Say what?????? So by your line of thought, England should have never fought back against Germany, the US should have never entered WWII, the US should have never fought the Brittish for independence, etc., etc., etc.?????? I agree all those points may come into consideration, but, to say that a nation just blidly goes into a war for those reasons only, at least in most cases, is false............ >>



My line of though is just that leaders don't act rationally, I ed: don't see why that has anything to do England's decision to fight Germany or not. Also, not trying to reduce things but, WW2 England, US had no room for negotiation besides complete surrender. Bush here has the luxury to consider negotiations on many fronts.

 

[Athanasius]

ToBeMe Quote:


<< OK.....you had some nice things to say there, but, I have to say this and I believe many will agree, unless you had some kind of "deeper" meaning, anyone whom says they do not fear death is one of three things.......Lying, fooling themselves, or dumber than the people whom flew those airliners into the WTC!

To not have fear of death is irrational and illogical! Nobody desires not to exist! If you're meaning not fearing death because of a religious belief of "afterlife"..........I don't buy into that! If that were true, why would people not be just going out looking for ways to die????? >>



Death has many faces beyond just physical death: abandonment, shame, isolation, confusion, helplessness. . . . These are all facets of death.

While I am a person of faith, I am not simply talking about an afterlife, nor do I think people should be out looking for ways to die.

What I am saying is that fear cannot be overcome unless we have something that our mind is devoted to even more than what we are afraid of. Until we value something more than our own lpersonal ife, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, we will be distraught over anything that threatens to take them away, thus diminishing our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.

Everybody fears death, but everybody dies. We spend our lives running from what must inevitably overtake us in the end. This "running" is what gives the terrorist the power to create anxiety that haunts even our dreams, much less our waking hours spent in public places.

Once I realize that fear is a form of death, and that death cannot be avoided, then I face my fears head on, process through them, and am thus set free to live more fully in the present moment, maximize joy in the present moment, and do what is right in the present moment (because I may not get a chance later to make it right). When I live this way, then I am content even if there is no tomorrow. This focus is what minimizes fear and deprives those who specialize in fear of their greatest weapon.

We are all going to die anyway; why cheat the time I have by allowing the terrorists to fill me with dread? If I dread, I am already embracing death.

 

[ToBeMe]

<< Bush here has the luxury to consider negotiations on many fronts. >>


Negotiate what?????
There has been an international warrant out for Bin Laden and several others for years.........nothing
We gave the Government harbouring him ample oppertunities to hand him over........nothing
We offered proof to countries that he and his organization perpitrated the 9/11 attacks which was relayed to them.....nothing still
We warned them that attack on the government and the terrorists was immenent unless he was handed over......nothing
We've sent the Government $113Million in aid in the past 12 months......they still won't comply when asked

What more was there to negotiate???? letting him run yet again would send a message that this organization and others like it could do this whenever they please with no consiquences.......

What else would you propose????

 

[ToBeMe]

Athanasius Quote:

• 
  
  << Death has many faces beyond just physical death: abandonment, shame, isolation, confusion, helplessness. . . . These are all facets of death.
  
  While I am a person of faith, I am not simply talking about an afterlife, nor do I think people should be out looking for ways to die.
  
  What I am saying is that fear cannot be overcome unless we have something that our mind is devoted to even more than what we are afraid of. Until we value something more than our own lpersonal ife, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, we will be distraught over anything that threatens to take them away, thus diminishing our life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.
  
  Everybody fears death, but everybody dies. We spend our lives running from what must inevitably overtake us in the end. This "running" is what gives the terrorist the power to create anxiety that haunts even our dreams, much less our waking hours spent in public places.
  
  Once I realize that fear is a form of death, and that death cannot be avoided, then I face my fears head on, process through them, and am thus set free to live more fully in the present moment, maximize joy in the present moment, and do what is right in the present moment (because I may not get a chance later to make it right). When I live this way, then I am content even if there is no tomorrow. This focus is what minimizes fear and deprives those who specialize in fear of their greatest weapon.
  
  We are all going to die anyway; why cheat the time I have by allowing the terrorists to fill me with dread? If I dread, I am already embracing death. >>
  
  

Ok....so you agree with what i said then! living in fear of being killed and being afraid to die are totally different! LOL!

 

[CocaCola5]

<<

<< Bush here has the luxury to consider negotiations on many fronts. >>


Negotiate what?????
There has been an international warrant out for Bin Laden and several others for years.........nothing
We gave the Government harbouring him ample oppertunities to hand him over........nothing
We offered proof to countries that he and his organization perpitrated the 9/11 attacks which was relayed to them.....nothing still
We warned them that attack on the government and the terrorists was immenent unless he was handed over......nothing
We've sent the Government $113Million in aid in the past 12 months......they still won't comply when asked

What more was there to negotiate???? letting him run yet again would send a message that this organization and others like it could do this whenever they please with no consiquences.......

What else would you propose???? >>



First off, as I said, I am not trying to reduce it. I can promise you that Bin Ladin would walk down to FBI headquarter tomorrow if the US leaves Saudi Arabia. This just show whats possible, but as I said presidents don't act rationally for the reasons above.

 

[drewshin]

i understand the current bombing campaign that is going on and agree with it, but will the killing of terrorists that are already ready to die really stop terrorism or teach other terrorists a lesson? most likely not, and in the process we are creating a whole new group of people that will believe us to be their enemy.

killing people that are already ready to die only makes martyrs out of them. i think the best way to deal with them would be to either try to capture them and bring them to an international court, or do what we are also currently doing, which is crippling their funding sources, and arresting people within their network.

just my 1c

 

[ToBeMe]

<< First off, as I said, I am not trying to reduce it. I can promise you that Bin Ladin would walk down to FBI headquarter tomorrow if the US leaves Saudi Arabia. This just show whats possible, but as I said presidents don't act rationally for the reasons above. >>


How in the heck can you promise me, or anyone that??????? Hey.......where are you right now?????? Are there bombs going off near you and are you in a bunker??????? Oh, and BTW......do you really think Saudi Arabia wants us out of there?????? Why do you think Bin Laden wants us out of there?????? I can tell you why.......so he can garner support and take over the Government in Saudi, that's why!