Hawaii fires

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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,238
10,813
136
Here is a good map and satelite images from NYT:


What is really odd, is it looks like it was nearly all just within the city, not like a wildfire that engulfed the town. I'm guessing the fire department was just completely overwhelmed with how quickly it spread.
 

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,373
8,683
136
What is really odd, is it looks like it was nearly all just within the city, not like a wildfire that engulfed the town. I'm guessing the fire department was just completely overwhelmed with how quickly it spread.
My sister lives in Kihei. She told me last night that her partner (a licensed real estate agent) had told her previous to all this happening that she thought Lahaina looked to her like a tinderbox.

I wonder if they had hydrants. I saw an interview of a guy on TV tonight who said he went on top of his house (I think in Lahaina) and for 3 hours was spraying his house with a garden hose. He said he had wished he had a hydrant to work from. He finally had to give up. He was barefoot and said he got badly burned on both feet because of the heat of the pavement. They panned down to his feet and each was covered with a sterile blue bag affair. He was obviously in semi-shock still, just super stressed.
 
Reactions: Saylick

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,163
12,477
136
So...the Maui fires were started by the Jewish Space Laser?




I don't know if people are really so stupid as to believe this shit...or if they're just trolling. Could easily be either way.
 

Stokely

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
2,218
2,988
136
Dammit that is horrible.

We stayed not far from Lahaina and ate dinner there a couple times.

I think sometimes its easy to think, if the fire gets near me, I'll just get out of the way. Until you see vids like some of the ones from Maui with that strong wind and huge flames being carried by it.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,217
10,874
136
Here is a good map and satelite images from NYT:


What is really odd, is it looks like it was nearly all just within the city, not like a wildfire that engulfed the town. I'm guessing the fire department was just completely overwhelmed with how quickly it spread.
No water pressure at the hydrants due to power outages.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,265
13,567
146
Gravity is so....old fashioned.
Same stupid crap is happening with septic systems.
Apparently you need to make it polished silver or give it racing stripes or something. If you aren't on a well you should never lose water during a power outage, fire services doubly so.
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,163
12,477
136
Dammit that is horrible.

We stayed not far from Lahaina and ate dinner there a couple times.

I think sometimes its easy to think, if the fire gets near me, I'll just get out of the way. Until you see vids like some of the ones from Maui with that strong wind and huge flames being carried by it.
Hard to outrun flames being driven by 60 mph winds
 
Reactions: hal2kilo

Muse

Lifer
Jul 11, 2001
38,373
8,683
136
Now up to 55, and apparently that only includes people found outside of buildings.
There was virtually no early warning system. Hawaii has a vast elaborate system ("Hawaii boasts what the state describes as the largest integrated outdoor all-hazard public safety warning system in the world") but the alarms did not go off. There was some alerting going on via cell phones, TV, but power went down and cell phone coverage as well, so for a great many the only warning they had was flames and the smell of smoke.


LAHAINA, Hawaii (AP) — Hawaii emergency management records show no indication that warning sirens sounded before people ran for their lives from wildfires on Maui that killed at least 55 people and wiped out a historic town. Instead, officials sent alerts to mobile phones, televisions and radio stations — but widespread power and cellular outages may have limited their reach.

Hawaii boasts what the state describes as the largest integrated outdoor all-hazard public safety warning system in the world, with about 400 sirens positioned across the island chain to alert people to various natural disasters and other threats.

But many survivors said in interviews Thursday that they didn’t hear any sirens or receive a warning that gave them enough time to prepare and only realized they were in danger when they saw flames or heard explosions nearby.

The wildfires are the state’s deadliest natural disaster since a 1960 tsunami that killed 61 people. An even deadlier tsunami in 1946, which killed more than 150 people on the Big Island, prompted the development of the territory-wide emergency system that includes the sirens, which are sounded monthly to test their readiness.
- - - -
Marlon Vasquez, a 31-year-old cook from Guatemala who came to the U.S. in January 2022, said that when he heard fire alarms, it was already too late to flee in his car.

“I opened the door, and the fire was almost on top of us,” he said from an evacuation center at a gymnasium. “We ran and ran. We ran almost the whole night and into the next day, because the fire didn’t stop.”

Vasquez and his brother Eduardo escaped via roads that were clogged with vehicles. The smoke was so toxic that he vomited. He said he’s not sure his roommates and neighbors made it to safety.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,976
8,023
136
Death toll over 80 now.
1,500+ still missing...

Can still go much higher....

After five hours in ocean, Maui fire survivor is ‘blessed to be alive’

The fire that took the town was swift and brutal. Early that morning, Cochran had seen reports of a wildfire nearby, but that wasn’t unusual for Lahaina, where she has lived for seven years. In the afternoon, the wind whipped up, so strong that Cochran began taking videos of the flying leaves.
...​
There was no text message telling her to evacuate, no emergency siren, she said. Then, to her shock, she saw flames in a parking lot about a block away. She ran to her apartment to grab a few essentials and jumped into her car.
She couldn't make it out via car, as abandoned vehicles blocked the roads. The ocean was her only option. Full story of the harrowing ordeal is in the article.
 
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BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,163
12,477
136
Reactions: Kaido

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,614
8,516
136
So...the Maui fires were started by the Jewish Space Laser?


View attachment 84285

I don't know if people are really so stupid as to believe this shit...or if they're just trolling. Could easily be either way.

The metastasizing of conspiracy theories is something to behold. How long before this all gets rolled up into Qanonsense?

Interesting that the photo seems to be easily shown to be from 2018 and from an oil refinery fire nowhere near Hawaii, though that "light pillar" effect is itself a curious optical phenomenon (sounds as if it's a similar illusion to rainbows). Does end up looking weirdly like a still from "Independence Day" - as if God or nature itself were trolling us.
 

GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,142
7,637
136
The metastasizing of conspiracy theories is something to behold. How long before this all gets rolled up into Qanonsense?

Interesting that the photo seems to be easily shown to be from 2018 and from an oil refinery fire nowhere near Hawaii, though that "light pillar" effect is itself a curious optical phenomenon (sounds as if it's a similar illusion to rainbows). Does end up looking weirdly like a still from "Independence Day" - as if God or nature itself were trolling us.

-I always thought those light beams were an artifact of the camera lens. Never seen a fire no matter how bright in real life that had a "beam" coming off of it.

Only one I know about is Chernobyl thanks to to ionizing radiation coming off the reactor energizing the air above creating a pillar of light.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,614
8,516
136
-I always thought those light beams were an artifact of the camera lens. Never seen a fire no matter how bright in real life that had a "beam" coming off of it.

Only one I know about is Chernobyl thanks to to ionizing radiation coming off the reactor energizing the air above creating a pillar of light.


Following the links in that article suggests that it is a bit more "real" than a purely camera lens artifact, but it's not "real", in the sense of having a definite location in space either - sounds quite similar to the processes that create rainbows on rainy+sunny days, hence is neither more-nor-less "real" than a rainbow. Apparently (just repeating what the link says) it's an effect caused by ice-crystals in the air.

 

burninatortech4

Senior member
Jan 29, 2014
677
345
136
Hey all. I'm originally from Maui, have family there now, and have loads of friends that have been providing me updates (everyone is safe and okay). Coverage on the news has been very haphazard. I've been letting things play out because saving lives and search and rescue should be a priority but I think it's time for the conversation to start.

There's some great info out there in mass media but more needs to be said on the subject. Here's what I know, followed up by some personal opinions:

Source: NASA 8/12/2023
FACTS

Weather: winds at the time of the fires were 60mph sustained with 80 mph gusts. The winds were associated with an intense high/low pressure gradient related to Hurricane Dora. Due to recent drought there is a LARGE amount of highly flammable invasive grass roughly coinciding with former sugarcane and pineapple land that has essentially been abandoned for the last 10-35 years (depending on the crop). This agriculture system (now functionally dead but whose echo remains) originates in the 19th century and is very meshed with land grab and power structure dynamics related to the overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy in 1893 and annexation by the USA.

1) Many fatalities in Lahaina were caused by the fires (duh) but also by downed power lines people couldn't see during the evacuation through the thick smoke. There are multiple confirmed fatalities by electrocution. Total fatalities are at 80 (confirmed) as of 7:20pm HST on 8/12. Most of these discovered fatalities (~60) were in the open. Many more will be found in the rubble. As of now, only 3% of the rubble has been searched with cadaver dogs. I think these dogs were flown in yesterday morning from the mainland. FEMA is on-site as of today.

To put this into perspective, this is the deadliest US fire in the last 100 years. The death toll will rise significantly as more rubble is searched.

2) None of the emergency sirens (used for tsunamis, earthquakes, and yes, fires) were activated during this emergency. More on this later (opinion).

3) There were 3 concurrent fires that completely overwhelmed Maui Fire Department (MFD) and State of Hawaii Department of Forestry and Wildlife (DOFAW) crews. Lahaina, Pulehu, and Kula. Lahaina essentially burned down (80%+ of structures destroyed ~2,207). 17,000 acres burned.

4) 4,500 people are out of a home/apartment and will need shelter. Some will leave the island, others will stay in hotels and/or AirBnB's (this is still being figured out).

5) Unsafe water alerts are active for the majority of upcountry Maui (the area in the center right of the above image).

OPINION

1) The State of Hawaii and Maui County are completely incompetent (about this and many other things). Maui Electric (MECO) should have shut down the grid when winds picked up this much. Downed lines are almost certainly the cause of much of the ignition sources (needs forensic work to confirm - that will be done soon I'm sure). This is especially true in the context of #3. We've had loads of small fires in the past caused by downed lines. This should not have been a surprise.

2) There is zero excuse for the warning sirens not to have a backup system. This should be true for earthquakes and tsunami contexts as well.

3) The State of Hawaii and land management agencies have known about the invasive grass / fuel problem for decades and have done NOTHING about it. This is inexcusable.

4) Communication has been atrocious. Most of my family has had to rely on accurate and timely updates from social media groups. State and county communication sources have been inaccurate or out of date by the time of publication.

I'm starting to ramble and am realizing we've lost so much. Lahaina was a truly special place. My first date with my wife was there and I have countless memories of walking down front street with my family. It's all gone.

I'll update this post as I receive more information.
 

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BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,163
12,477
136
I've read several...opinions and excuses as to why the emergency warning systems failed on Maui...power outages, cell phone towers damaged and no power, fire moved so fast there was no time for warnings, even, "Well, even if the system had worked, the sirens are positioned so the people on the beach might have heard them, but anyone inland wouldn't." (that might be true, I live a couple of blocks from a tsunami warning siren. IF my doors and windows are open, I'll usually hear the siren/tones of the monthly test, (first Monday of every month at noon) but the dialog that plays from the speakers...just a bunch of garbled noise.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,976
8,023
136
The report I read suggest that... the warning system did not just fail - it was not even activated.
No one with the authority was watching or aware of the situation, until it was too late.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
64,163
12,477
136
The report I read suggest that... the warning system did not just fail - it was not even activated.
No one with the authority was watching or aware of the situation, until it was too late.
That could be. From what I read a couple of days ago, the fire crews thought they had the fire knocked down and moved on to the fire upcountry. Then...the fire outside of Lahaina flared up again, driven by the 60+ mph winds...and it was on the town before anyone knew it.
I suspect there's lots of blame to be placed on this. (not that it will help those who died or whose homes burned to the ground, losing everything.)

Over on "the site which shall not be mentioned," we have a member who lives in east Maui. He opined this about the emergency warning system:
I'm not going to defend anybody because I don't know everything that happened... but by the time the fires started hitting the town the power had been out for a day and the cell towers were down. Nobody got a cell warning because there was no cell communication. Not sure if the tsunami sirens rely on grid power but that seems logical. Even if they had gone off, the sound doesn't go much past the shore. I'm 3/4 of a mile from the ocean and I never hear them here. So they might have helped the people who lived on or just off Front St but everyone else probably wouldn't have heard them.
 
Mar 11, 2004
23,267
5,714
146
Didn't they have a similar issue with tsunami warning years back? I know they had the one where someone sent out a tsunami warning incorrectly but that exposed there were serious issues with the system. Doesn't sound like they remedied that, maybe made it worse even.

I get the impression that Hawaii's government is basically captive and serving the tourism/resort industry and so has no intention of even caring to pretend at governing for Hawaiians, added with the issues still present from colonization, and just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. And many people (wealthy and I've come to find out there's people who live their lives essentially as hangers on of wealthy people - family, friends, young women who are nannies/housesitters/petsitters) "live" there as like 2nd home or almost wistfully, and are in like a utopian bubble where they act like, well its just a holiday and actively don't want to concern themselves with real stuff like inclement weather and the like.

And the US government is kinda intentionally hands off, a bit like other native situations where they want to actually get involved as little as possible because of the colonial history. Hawaii is kinda like an in between native reservations and Puerto Rico.
 

Kaido

Elite Member & Kitchen Overlord
Feb 14, 2004
48,694
5,443
136
My mom's friend lives in Lahaina, she made it out safely fortunately! She was closing the shades, looked out the window, and saw the neighbor's truck on fire. She quickly grabbed her husband to help & they ran outside & saw the huge fire. They were able to get their car & escape, but it was right on them. No air-siren warning or anything. Their house is 100% gone.

The pictures online are like Armageddon...





 
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