HBO's Game of Thrones season 6 discussion thread- airing 4/24/16 (No book spoilers)

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Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
The show definitely declined once the show writers no longer had the books to guide them. It seems thar they’re defaulting to spectacle and fan service over character development.

The Battle of Winterfell, what a tactical train wreck.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,848
13,784
146
The show definitely declined once the show writers no longer had the books to guide them. It seems thar they’re defaulting to spectacle and fan service over character development.

The Battle of Winterfell, what a tactical train wreck.

Well here’s an interesting take on the battle by a military strategist.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/battle-winterfell-military-analysis-tactics.html

Cavalry
Team Alive’s use of cavalry has received harsh criticism from analysts, in part because of the near-complete annihilation of the force within minutes of the beginning of the battle. Team Alive deserves some of this criticism, but the cavalry attack is best thought of as a low-odds gamble in a difficult situation than as an error in judgment.

The success of a cavalry attack against infantry requires either flanking (hitting a formation on its side while some other group “fixes” its front) or a shocking frontal assault that disrupts the formation. Both of these depend more on psychological than on physical factors. Fear of being attacked from two sides induces infantry to break and flee, just as fear of being overrun causes infantry to throw down their weapons and run. In either case, cavalry runs free and kills until the infantry can pull itself back together. But crucially, success depends on the ability of the cavalry to induce panic.

We also know from ancient and medieval sources that commanders struggled to keep even experienced cavalry under control. Once cavalry left sight range and hearing distance of a commander, it was effectively on its own and not manageable. Cavalry formations commonly abandoned the battlefield to pursue objectives distinct from those of their commanding officers. Even as recently at the Battle of Gettysburg, Gen. Robert E. Lee lost contact with his cavalry, leaving him blind in the fight against the Army of the Potomac.

Team Alive knew enough about Team Dead to guess that the Dothraki faced a kind of infantry that they had never encountered before; one without fear and thus invulnerable to shock and flanking. Moreover, in the dark, the Dothraki probably could not even identify the enemy flank. Although it’s not clear that Team Alive had a well-thought out plan for the cavalry charge, it may have believed that it could take advantage of the lack of discipline of Team Dead (which did not fight in tight phalanxes or with standardized weapons) in order to reach and attack the “middle management” of White Walkers. Alexander the Great employed a variant of this strategy at the Battle of Gaugamela.

While all of this makes theoretical sense, it also runs counter to decades of Dothraki fighting experience. When Dothraki fought undisciplined infantry, that infantry broke and ran. When Dothraki fought disciplined infantry (the Unsullied, for example), the infantry took casualties but could retreat and maintain integrity and mobility. At the Battle of Winterfell, Team Dead’s infantry simply absorbed the greater part of the Dothraki cavalry without breaking and running. This left the cavalry immobile and largely defenseless against attacks from every side. The Dothraki likely did not envision their attack as a suicide charge, but they had limited tools with which to judge the effectiveness of Team Dead.

None of this makes the cavalry charge a good idea. But the mistake was made in the days before the Battle of Winterfell, not in the minutes before the charge. The best employment of the Dothraki would have come as long range scouts and skirmishers in the days before the battle. Even then, however, their utility was limited; cavalry often succeeds by disrupting supply lines and ambushing foraging parties, and Team Dead needed neither of these. And in any case, unless Team Alive spared a dragon for air support, any accumulation of Dothraki would have been vulnerable to Viserion. If the Dothraki had not charged, they would have found themselves pinned against the infantry, their mobility lost. If they had moved right or left in search of Team Dead’s flanks, they would have run the risk of being flanked themselves (Team Dead also had cavalry, and its infantry was fast and fearless) or destroyed by Viserion and the Night King.

At any rate it’s an interesting read on battle.

(Also Arya falls under Team Alive - Special Forces )
 
Reactions: Aharami

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Well here’s an interesting take on the battle by a military strategist.

https://slate.com/culture/2019/04/battle-winterfell-military-analysis-tactics.html

Cavalry
Team Alive’s use of cavalry has received harsh criticism from analysts, in part because of the near-complete annihilation of the force within minutes of the beginning of the battle. Team Alive deserves some of this criticism, but the cavalry attack is best thought of as a low-odds gamble in a difficult situation than as an error in judgment.

The success of a cavalry attack against infantry requires either flanking (hitting a formation on its side while some other group “fixes” its front) or a shocking frontal assault that disrupts the formation. Both of these depend more on psychological than on physical factors. Fear of being attacked from two sides induces infantry to break and flee, just as fear of being overrun causes infantry to throw down their weapons and run. In either case, cavalry runs free and kills until the infantry can pull itself back together. But crucially, success depends on the ability of the cavalry to induce panic.

We also know from ancient and medieval sources that commanders struggled to keep even experienced cavalry under control. Once cavalry left sight range and hearing distance of a commander, it was effectively on its own and not manageable. Cavalry formations commonly abandoned the battlefield to pursue objectives distinct from those of their commanding officers. Even as recently at the Battle of Gettysburg, Gen. Robert E. Lee lost contact with his cavalry, leaving him blind in the fight against the Army of the Potomac.

Team Alive knew enough about Team Dead to guess that the Dothraki faced a kind of infantry that they had never encountered before; one without fear and thus invulnerable to shock and flanking. Moreover, in the dark, the Dothraki probably could not even identify the enemy flank. Although it’s not clear that Team Alive had a well-thought out plan for the cavalry charge, it may have believed that it could take advantage of the lack of discipline of Team Dead (which did not fight in tight phalanxes or with standardized weapons) in order to reach and attack the “middle management” of White Walkers. Alexander the Great employed a variant of this strategy at the Battle of Gaugamela.

While all of this makes theoretical sense, it also runs counter to decades of Dothraki fighting experience. When Dothraki fought undisciplined infantry, that infantry broke and ran. When Dothraki fought disciplined infantry (the Unsullied, for example), the infantry took casualties but could retreat and maintain integrity and mobility. At the Battle of Winterfell, Team Dead’s infantry simply absorbed the greater part of the Dothraki cavalry without breaking and running. This left the cavalry immobile and largely defenseless against attacks from every side. The Dothraki likely did not envision their attack as a suicide charge, but they had limited tools with which to judge the effectiveness of Team Dead.

None of this makes the cavalry charge a good idea. But the mistake was made in the days before the Battle of Winterfell, not in the minutes before the charge. The best employment of the Dothraki would have come as long range scouts and skirmishers in the days before the battle. Even then, however, their utility was limited; cavalry often succeeds by disrupting supply lines and ambushing foraging parties, and Team Dead needed neither of these. And in any case, unless Team Alive spared a dragon for air support, any accumulation of Dothraki would have been vulnerable to Viserion. If the Dothraki had not charged, they would have found themselves pinned against the infantry, their mobility lost. If they had moved right or left in search of Team Dead’s flanks, they would have run the risk of being flanked themselves (Team Dead also had cavalry, and its infantry was fast and fearless) or destroyed by Viserion and the Night King.

At any rate it’s an interesting read on battle.

(Also Arya falls under Team Alive - Special Forces )
The Arya scene is the only thing that worked in the whole episode and is a fitting conclusion to her character.

LOL, I read that same article. A lot of people mock GRRM for his sometimes obscure details, but there is a lot of historical accuracy that he draws from in his books.

Let’s waste our mobile shock troop cavalry on a futile frontal assault!

I always envisioned the Unsullied as fighting more in a phalanx. Their spear based formations without shields or close quarter stabby weapons are useless.
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
If you want to understand why it was so dark and pixelated, per the cinematographer, your TVs suck and you don't know what you're doing:

https://www.vulture.com/2019/04/gam...rapher-dark-battle-of-winterfell-episode.html

Maybe these people need to realize that the VAST majority of viewers are watching on sub $500 TVs (several years old) in normally lit rooms, have no idea what "calibration" even means or that it's even a "thing". Pretty pompous arrogant stance. His (and many other's) job is to create a product that is usable/watchable by the audience. They failed.

They guy certainly is true. Most peoples TVs are shit but that is also due to the manufactures selling them in the poor default state with all the idiotic digital "enhancement" technologies. Soap Opera effect is the factory setting. On every single flat screen, I had to turn off that stuff first.

But yeah in the end they filn for the mass audience and not the few how have a proper setup. So it really was too dark even it did work fine for me, mostly.


The problem wasn't due to cinematography though, it was due to streaming and artifacting that our streaming technology simply can't do anything about yet. It's not feasible to stream at bitrates appropriate for the quality of bluray, both audio and visual, yet.

Exactly. Even the 1080p web rip had serious compression issues. Being that dark doesn't work with that much compressions that it is suitable for mass streaming. If it's that dark, then the file size for 90 min of the webrip shouldn't have been 5 gb but more like >8GB (higher bitrate) and hence pretty much bluray rip quality but better even in hdr.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,616
3,471
136
Plus I guess its pointless to kill the dead army if the night king doesnt turn up. If the battle went badly he could just slink off and raise another one.
On that point everyones opinions on tactics really dont matter. Theres no way to win a battle against a limitless dead army that has your fallen comrades join it.

Bran put himself there as bait. Nothing else would draw the NK out.
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,616
3,471
136
If you want to understand why it was so dark and pixelated, per the cinematographer, your TVs suck and you don't know what you're doing:

https://www.vulture.com/2019/04/gam...rapher-dark-battle-of-winterfell-episode.html



Maybe these people need to realize that the VAST majority of viewers are watching on sub $500 TVs (several years old) in normally lit rooms, have no idea what "calibration" even means or that it's even a "thing". Pretty pompous arrogant stance. His (and many other's) job is to create a product that is usable/watchable by the audience. They failed.

Battle of Helms Deep from Two Towers was at night AND in the rain and you could follow everything that was going on quite clearly. Should have gotten PJ to direct this episode.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Battle of Helms Deep from Two Towers was at night AND in the rain and you could follow everything that was going on quite clearly. Should have gotten PJ to direct this episode.

There are competing visual goals when comparing these two.

The inkiness of the dark night in these scenes is clear. You feel it, connect to it, because you the viewer can hardly see shit which immediately -- whether you acknowledge or not -- connect to the scene in this frustration and become more empathetic for the characters. It's a visceral approach to cinematography and I wholeheartedly support it when used appropriately. Make no mistake I feel there have been times in the series where inky black shadows were unnecessary, but I feel it was wholly appropriate for the last episode, as it was their stated goal. They have always had a very punchy picture, gives a real gritty weight to the scene.
 

thebestMAX

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2000
7,487
121
106
Now they can release the raw footage that was actually shot in the daytime so everyone can see every flaw and detail. [/sarcasm]

I know tht this wasnt the case with GOT but I have read a lot of night scenes in movies are shot in the daylight and then simulate night with filters.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,848
13,784
146
I’ve decided Winterfell needed to put this guy in charge of defending the castle.


Because we know what happens to the dead when he is:




(Edit. Jamie needs a chainsaw hand)
 

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
But hey, at least they "cut the cord" to save money!

Not everyone is from US or said otherwise you either wait 1-2 years till it appears in TV here and be spoilered or pirate. Cord cutting isn't a thing here because it's commercials aren't that bad yet and the settop box has built in recording which allows you to fast forward commercial breaks. Most still "have the cord" but few actually watch live tv.
 

interchange

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
8,022
2,872
136
I won't cover all the issues listed above. Also, I still enjoyed it and am not giving up on the series or anything, but it was also just really poorly done from a storytelling standpoint.

What I think could have made a huge difference was them discussing more specifically their battle strategy. Yeah, people can still rip the actual strategy apart, but going into the battle we really didn't know how it was fought. Except it was even worse. They declared that they didn't really think they could defeat the night army and that their chance was to kill the Night King as he would go after Bran. Don't really have a problem with that or with the idea that they should still try, but their plans weren't laid out for us to follow.

More importantly, if they thought their real chance was to kill the Night King, why the hell didn't they have a strategy for which to do that? Oh I know put effing Theon Greyjoy there. Because it's not like you have any badass knights, assassins, dragons or anything. Or any strategists that can set a trap of any kind. Jeez...

And they didn't think of trying to do any real scouting to see what they were up against? I mean Bran could warg and help develop a strategy or inform the battle as it goes on. Dragonfire could be used to light the battlefield.

Aside from the cavalry strategy problems with the Dothraki, it wasn't until Melisandre came and lit the swords on fire that they had weapons which could actually, you know, kill the opponents they were fighting. You'd think someone might have noticed that before they put them on the front line.

Overall, they were clearly trying to show that the battle degenerated into chaos and that the characters were confused, enraged, in despair. While there were clear ways they tried to show that (the snuffing out of the Dothraki flames, the unexpected storm in addition to the darkness, etc.), mostly it just left me feeling disconnected and disoriented. Not the same thing. If I had a clearer picture of the motivation & strategy they had before, the sudden disruption of those expectations would have made a much bigger impact. For example, Dany giving an inspiring few words and shed tears to her Dothraki prior to the fight would have illustrated her connection, and an immediate rageful reaction to their swift defeat would have provided huge context for her utter loss of strategic action. Jon was the main battle leader and we had no idea what he was supposed to be doing the entire time. The scene with Arya in the library was cool, and I think her sudden realization that shit was real was important, but we really didn't know what her intent was in the castle. Was she trying to flee for survival? Did she have some kind of plan? Something like a flashback to an earlier scene with similar motivation or an utterance that declared it would be good. As a contrast I thought the Hound's hesitation and loss of purpose was well done, and his freezing much more relatable in the moment, and his restoration of action due to personal connection to Arya well done. The precursor for his cowardice was well set up.

Many more thoughts to add later possibly.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Now they can release the raw footage that was actually shot in the daytime so everyone can see every flaw and detail. [/sarcasm]

I know tht this wasnt the case with GOT but I have read a lot of night scenes in movies are shot in the daylight and then simulate night with filters.

"Day for night" techniques used to be a common thing, but film stock sensitivity and digital sensor sensitivity make this unnecessary unless the budget is ridiculously small. You obviously need artificial lighting to provide some basic light for good exposure without ruinous amounts of film grain at high ISOs or digital noise but that's an entirely different look from Day for Night except under the best possible results.

I mean it probably still happens even on budgets that would seem to make it unnecessary but I doubt any who care for production quality stoop that low.
 
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