HBO's Game of Thrones season 6 discussion thread- airing 4/24/16 (No book spoilers)

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Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,218
661
136
Oh. Come. On.

None of us were trained either. If you move erratically, it's more difficult to hit you. It's more difficult to hit an erratic animal than one that moves in a straight line (or stands still). Also, he's been with a wildling for a long time now. Apparently, most of them are AWESOME archers.

Heck, I was pissed off that a single wildling didn't step in and take out Ramsey while Ramsey was standing still in the open.

He's had a wildling bodyguard for some time. There's nothing there to say she taught him anything, let alone tactics for what happened. You're still ignoring the terror part. You're still acting like he should have been able to think other than blindly running towards the guy trying to save him. When people experience terror their mind goes into tunnel mode. I really doubt he'd be able to see anything other than Jon on his horse.

I also think the range was too far off for the archers.. otherwise why didn't anyone, including Ramsey just pick off the other side?
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
856
126
Prob the last thing I'll say on this matter.. but Rickon was 6 when he left Winterfell. Not sure when he had time to learn and practice the skill of arrow dodging. What in the series has Rickon done that makes anyone think he'd be someone that wouldn't just panic in pure terror? I've said it before, and I'll say it again, when terror hits people stop thinking. It's a thing that's been proven over and over again. That's why the military trains people to do the same thing over and over again as the odds are people will fall back to muscle memory. Rickon wouldn't ever have the chance to learn much in the ways of fighting let alone how to think clearly enough to start dodging vs running straight to the guy riding straight at him. Even then they showed in earlier seasons that Ramsey made a sport of hunting people with his bow and never once lost. Those people were in forests and other areas that had cover. How Rickon was supposed to be able to beat Ramsey in an OPEN field with NO cover would be odder than what happened.

You and I can sit in our chairs and declare it simple, but we're just playing armchair quarterback without a clue what it's like on field. Here is some kid that hasn't once seen much combat, let alone the size of the Battle of the Bastards, it'd be terrifying. I'm a little hazy on how much time has passed over the course of the show, but I'm betting it's not been long enough for a kid who was 6 when it started to have his balls drop, let alone be someone that doesn't panic under fire.

Stop making excuses.

https://youtu.be/8qfsMjASwTM
The blue guys were taken from their tranquil jungle home and are unfamiliar with war and warrior fighting tactics. It's clear that some figured it out.

Also note how GoT ripped off the "what's he going to do with that knife?!" moment of suspense.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
Prob the last thing I'll say on this matter.. but Rickon was 6 when he left Winterfell. Not sure when he had time to learn and practice the skill of arrow dodging. What in the series has Rickon done that makes anyone think he'd be someone that wouldn't just panic in pure terror?

He's a kid living in the North, and I'm sure someone threw a few snow balls at him. After getting hit a couple times I'm sure he figured out how to dodge. In other places they probably throw rocks or dirt clods. Granted in my dodgeball experience some people arent as good as others, but at least give it a shot. I think the mentions of the lack of dodging is more of a statement that there were better ways to execute the essence of that scene.

I do find it funny that just about every place that talks about the battle mentions that first. Even After the Thrones, the official HBO after show, had a funny 5 min bit illustrating the technique.

 

MongGrel

Lifer
Dec 3, 2013
38,751
3,068
121
He's had a wildling bodyguard for some time. There's nothing there to say she taught him anything, let alone tactics for what happened. You're still ignoring the terror part. You're still acting like he should have been able to think other than blindly running towards the guy trying to save him. When people experience terror their mind goes into tunnel mode. I really doubt he'd be able to see anything other than Jon on his horse.

I'd still tend to agree with you on this one.

He's a kid that has been a captive probably in a cell a long time now, cut loose and freaked out just running blindly for his life.

He's not exactly in a stable state of mind when Ramsey drug him out there, I'm sure.
 

brainhulk

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2007
9,418
454
126
i would say the mounds of cgi bodies were more of an issue for me. way to ruin an epic scene
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,856
4,974
126
i would say the mounds of cgi bodies were more of an issue for me. way to ruin an epic scene

Agreed. Though it didn't completely ruin it for me. Just made it a little hokey.
They went from a very visceral and believable battle scene to one of a comic book/graphic novel. There could have been some "piling up" of bodies, but not like 20 ft high. Made no sense.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,218
661
136
Stop making excuses.

https://youtu.be/8qfsMjASwTM
The blue guys were taken from their tranquil jungle home and are unfamiliar with war and warrior fighting tactics. It's clear that some figured it out.

Also note how GoT ripped off the "what's he going to do with that knife?!" moment of suspense.

I'm not making excuses for this. I'm baffled out of all the things they did do wrong (see the dogs at the end) that something that was possible is the issue. People react differently when in fear. It's a known and very studied thing. To expect Rickon, who's still a child, to even think of anything outside of get to the guy trying to save me, while possible (we never know what's in his head) it's probable it isn't what's going to happen every time. It's the same reason why some people in the army freeze up when under gun fire and just shut down, and some people fire back... unless you're going to say that never happens now because some movie showed the entire squad firing with marksmen accuracy.

He's a kid living in the North, and I'm sure someone threw a few snow balls at him. After getting hit a couple times I'm sure he figured out how to dodge. In other places they probably throw rocks or dirt clods. Granted in my dodgeball experience some people arent as good as others, but at least give it a shot. I think the mentions of the lack of dodging is more of a statement that there were better ways to execute the essence of that scene.

I do find it funny that just about every place that talks about the battle mentions that first. Even After the Thrones, the official HBO after show, had a funny 5 min bit illustrating the technique.


A friendly game of snowball fights vs running for his life? I'm sure there were a lot of other games he played that wouldn't have crossed his mind when he was in fear of dying... I mean, yeah.. I hear about it all the time with the Vets I know. They always talk about how when they first took fire the first thing that went into their minds was some chutes and ladders game they had when they were kids.
 

PingviN

Golden Member
Nov 3, 2009
1,848
13
81
Agreed. Though it didn't completely ruin it for me. Just made it a little hokey.
They went from a very visceral and believable battle scene to one of a comic book/graphic novel. There could have been some "piling up" of bodies, but not like 20 ft high. Made no sense.

I just went with it. It was an awesome battle scene so let's just take the bad writing for what it is and enjoy the rest.
 

JEDI

Lifer
Sep 25, 2001
30,160
3,302
126
how many giants did the wildings have?
3?

2 died at the siege at the wall. (one by super xbow. one inside the gate to the elevator shaft.)
and 1 in winterfell.
 

brainhulk

Diamond Member
Sep 14, 2007
9,418
454
126
what will happen when sir friendzone touches a whitewalker with his stone arm?

dun dun dun...
 

Homerboy

Lifer
Mar 1, 2000
30,856
4,974
126
I just went with it. It was an awesome battle scene so let's just take the bad writing for what it is and enjoy the rest.

I went with it too. Shrugged it off and enjoyed everything else.
Shame a lot of people seem to WAAAAAAY over analyze things. Not sure how they enjoy any TV/Movie/Book.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
A friendly game of snowball fights vs running for his life? I'm sure there were a lot of other games he played that wouldn't have crossed his mind when he was in fear of dying... I mean, yeah.. I hear about it all the time with the Vets I know. They always talk about how when they first took fire the first thing that went into their minds was some chutes and ladders game they had when they were kids.

So the concept of dodging something coming at you is so complicated you need a boot camp? George Bush practiced dodging shoes, and thats how he was able to avoid that angry reporter? Granted, he looked like a pro, so maybe he did have some practice, but this is bare bones instinctual survival stuff. And this is the old days when you really needed to know this stuff. Its not like we are talking about Joffrey, who's been pampered all his life. And even then, I'm sure once he saw the first arrow at his feet he would be like WTF and start moving side to side. Moving around to avoid being hit isnt rocket science, and you pretty much learn it the first time you are hit with something.
 
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Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,218
661
136
what will happen when sir friendzone touches a whitewalker with his stone arm?

dun dun dun...

The problem is Sir Friendzone is really Syrio who is the Faceless man Jaqen... it's really obvious when you look at it.. I mean both of them loved Arya, and Sir Friendzone loves women too.. it all makes sense..

So the concept of dodging something coming at you is so complicated you need a boot camp? George Bush practiced dodging shoes, and thats how he was able to avoid that angry reporter? Granted, he looked like a pro, so maybe he did have some practice, but this is bar bones instinctual survival stuff. And this is the old days when you really needed to know this stuff. Its not like we are talking about Joffrey, who's been pampered all his life. And even then, I'm sure once he saw the first arrow at his feet he would be like WTF and start moving side to side. Moving around to avoid being hit isnt rocket science, and you pretty much learn it the first time you are hit with something.

While Rickon did have a bit rougher of a go than Joffery, he wasn't some seasoned vet.. he was still only 6 when he left Winterfell.. how much could he know? He wouldn't have had much, if any combat training.. the only thing I remember him doing in the show is running away from things. Even with time in the show being skewed, he'd be what? 12 at the oldest? He wouldn't be applying any adult thinking, let alone having any idea what to do when people are trying to kill you. Another thing, it's been well documented that people in panic's vision can go into tunnel vision mode, so again, it's very possible that he didn't even see anything other than Jon on his horse trying to save him. Out of all the odd things, the dogs waiting to eat, the fact Sansa knew what Ramsey said even though she had left before he said them, the fact that Sansa was in the tent while they talked about their plans yet said nothing, only to turn around and give a speech about how no one was listening to her.. the fact that Jon charged the army on his own, the fact the giant was able to tear down the gates of Winterfell even though it had been said it was the strongest fortress in the north.. out of all these things, the only thing that could be possible is the one that people glob onto thinking it's totally bullshit.. Read blink by malcolm gladwell.. he talks about how some people react in fear.

Edit: Also the arrows were coming from behind him.. he hadn't a clue where they were going to land.. unlike Bush who was looking right at the shoe coming at him..
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,630
12,762
146
I think we should start using Shoe-Bush as the new SI unit of measurement for dodging potential. How many Shoe-Bushes would Rickon classify as? I mean a handful missed, but mostly due to Ramsey's actions, not Rickons. Maybe there's a Shoe-Bush-Bellcurve we can work with? Need more data points. Everyone start throwing stuff.
 

Childs

Lifer
Jul 9, 2000
11,450
7
81
While Rickon did have a bit rougher of a go than Joffery, he wasn't some seasoned vet.. he was still only 6 when he left Winterfell.. how much could he know? He wouldn't have had much, if any combat training.. the only thing I remember him doing in the show is running away from things. Even with time in the show being skewed, he'd be what? 12 at the oldest? He wouldn't be applying any adult thinking, let alone having any idea what to do when people are trying to kill you. Another thing, it's been well documented that people in panic's vision can go into tunnel vision mode, so again, it's very possible that he didn't even see anything other than Jon on his horse trying to save him. Out of all the odd things, the dogs waiting to eat, the fact Sansa knew what Ramsey said even though she had left before he said them, the fact that Sansa was in the tent while they talked about their plans yet said nothing, only to turn around and give a speech about how no one was listening to her.. the fact that Jon charged the army on his own, the fact the giant was able to tear down the gates of Winterfell even though it had been said it was the strongest fortress in the north.. out of all these things, the only thing that could be possible is the one that people glob onto thinking it's totally bullshit.. Read blink by malcolm gladwell.. he talks about how some people react in fear.

Edit: Also the arrows were coming from behind him.. he hadn't a clue where they were going to land.. unlike Bush who was looking right at the shoe coming at him..

We saw Bran scaling towers in the very first episode. And in the flashbacks, we see the young Starks training young. I always got the impression the Starks were tough SOBs, and they started young. Even Arya. The only exception seemed to be Sansa. Also, Rickon was on the run for at least a couple of seasons, so you would think he would be in survival mode.

I also thought we saw Rickon see either the first or second arrow, so he knew what the deal was. We all know he was going to die no matter what, but that was maybe the dumbest way to do it.

Whats funny about the Sansa thing is that Jon asked her point blank about her thoughts on the plan and she was super vague. I wonder if that was on Little Fingers instructions. I have a feeling the Knights of the Vale would have always shown up at the last second when both armies were decimated. And when they said the gates were strong, I dont know that they were thinking giant proof. Especially a pissed off giant. Jon rushing by himself was dumb, but one could chalk that up to rage. I could understand the rage more than being so afraid that you forget to avoid the thing you fear. And in general it seemed like Jon was resigned to dying. Out of all the dumb things you listed, running in straight line to avoid arrows is the dumbest! Its similar, although ultimately not as significant, as Arya taking a stroll down town while being hunted by The Waif. Its just dumb, and it could have been handle much better. In fact, sometimes they do things so dumb the internet goes crazy trying to make sense of it, and in the end, it was just dumb. lol

Its the failures of common sense things that break the suspension of disbelief and stand out more. I mean, who really knows how strong a giant is, and people can understand being so enraged you go in a straight line after someone. But avoiding something being hurled at you...most people can relate to that. Maybe if I've known fear to the point of literally shitting my pants I'd think differently about it, but I dont.
 

Typ33

Member
Aug 24, 2014
62
0
16
Jon Snow is the only selfless person and he is the perfect pattern of what a king should be. It’s not his shortcomings that he tried to rescue his little brother Rickon from Ramsay as soon as possible. Jon Snow does not know anything about his noble birth. He knows himself as a knight, a leader and does everything that a knight should do. He does not hanker after the iron throne…….does not play the game of thrones to win it. Sansa has become clever and tactful ….but, she is selfish and little greedy as well. Jon would not have done this if Rickon was not Ramsay’s hostage. Here Jon’s love for his half brother is greater than selfish Sansa’s love for her sibling. Why should a person trust Sansa who has never been a loyal daughter to her father? Jon has done nothing to make himself a king, a leader. People love him and make him their leader. Till now he does not need to be cunning like other persons claiming the throne. He is the elected leader mostly by the wildings and commons in the Night’s Watch. ‘A leader needs to see the big picture and act accordingly’, Jon could see’ the big picture’ and gathered the wildings to fight against white walkers. Jon is not at all fool but the wisest who could foresee that the worst enemy of mankind White walkers are coming and they have to be united to fight against the creatures . Without any greed for the throne he fights only to protect his people and for them who asks for help……that is the quality of a great king, great leader. That’s why he is the most suitable person to be King. None but he should sit on Iron Throne.
 

ArenCordial

Senior member
Sep 18, 2012
214
15
81
Jon Snow is the only selfless person and he is the perfect pattern of what a king should be. It’s not his shortcomings that he tried to rescue his little brother Rickon from Ramsay as soon as possible. Jon Snow does not know anything about his noble birth. He knows himself as a knight, a leader and does everything that a knight should do. He does not hanker after the iron throne…….does not play the game of thrones to win it. Sansa has become clever and tactful ….but, she is selfish and little greedy as well. Jon would not have done this if Rickon was not Ramsay’s hostage. Here Jon’s love for his half brother is greater than selfish Sansa’s love for her sibling. Why should a person trust Sansa who has never been a loyal daughter to her father? Jon has done nothing to make himself a king, a leader. People love him and make him their leader. Till now he does not need to be cunning like other persons claiming the throne. He is the elected leader mostly by the wildings and commons in the Night’s Watch. ‘A leader needs to see the big picture and act accordingly’, Jon could see’ the big picture’ and gathered the wildings to fight against white walkers. Jon is not at all fool but the wisest who could foresee that the worst enemy of mankind White walkers are coming and they have to be united to fight against the creatures . Without any greed for the throne he fights only to protect his people and for them who asks for help……that is the quality of a great king, great leader. That’s why he is the most suitable person to be King. None but he should sit on Iron Throne.

Really? Because frankly since the end of season 5 and all of season 6 Jon's been a complete moron.

Jon's a good person. He's just, he can look past his prejudges, and he's a strong fighter. He saw the importance of trying to save the Wildlings yes. He's also oblivious to the fact that just because he's willing to look past his prejudges that doesn't mean others are willing to. That gets him killed. He's similarly oblivious that Sansa's hiding information from him.

As a leader Jon has displayed precious little this season. The two scenes we see of him trying to convince the Northern houses to join him are a total failure. Davos is the one who convinces the Mormonts not Jon, the guy who actually knew the Old Bear.

As a battle commander he failed the instant he got baited with Rickon, despite being warned. He abandoned his own battle plans and risked the morale of his army and the integrity of his formations going after Rickon. Granted Davos shares blame there but this is Jon's army so Davos never should have felt he needed to make that decision. Yes, it was noble for Jon to be willing to sacrifice himself for the chance to save Rickon. That said Jon is responsible for every life in that army and for the consequences of what would befall the houses of his allies and the Wilding women and children if Ramsay had prevailed. Jon needed to make the hard choice and he couldn't which is the exact opposite of what a king would need to do.

This is me partly vented with how bad Jon's arc has been this season. Even if they prove R+L=J next episode, Jon is in no way shape or form the guy who should be leading people through the long night or sit the Iron Throne. He's been an idiot I hope the show runners realize this. He's Ned 2.0 - brave, selfless, and utterly stupid when it comes to the great game. Ned lost, Jon needs to be different.
 
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Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
4,439
9
81
Really? Because frankly since the end of season 5 and all of season 6 Jon's been a complete moron.

Jon's a good person. He's just, he can look past his prejudges, and he's a strong fighter. He saw the importance of trying to save the Wildlings yes. He's also oblivious to the fact that just because he's willing to look past his prejudges that doesn't mean others are willing to. That gets him killed. He's similarly oblivious that Sansa's hiding information from him.

As a leader Jon has displayed precious little this season. The two scenes we see of him trying to convince the Northern houses to join him are a total failure. Davos is the one who convinces the Mormonts not Jon, the guy who actually knew the Old Bear.

As a battle commander he failed the instant he got baited with Rickon, despite being warned. He abandoned his own battle plans and risked the morale of his army and the integrity of his formations going after Rickon. Granted Davos shares blame there but this is Jon's army so Davos never should have felt he needed to make that decision. Yes, it was noble for Jon to be willing to sacrifice himself for the chance to save Rickon. That said Jon is responsible for every life in that army and for the consequences of what would befall the houses of his allies and the Wilding women and children if Ramsay had prevailed. Jon needed to make the hard choice and he couldn't which is the exact opposite of what a king would need to do.

This is me partly vented with how bad Jon's arc has been this season. Even if they prove R+L=J next episode, Jon is in no way shape or form the guy who should be leading people through the long night or sit the Iron Throne. He's been an idiot I hope the show runners realize this. He's Ned 2.0 - brave, selfless, and utterly stupid when it comes to the great game. Ned lost, Jon needs to be different.

Does Jon actually have to be a competent leader? Either as a general or a king? Is it necessarily contradictory or out of character to show him struggling to do a good job with this? Did he always act rationally and with a cool head when the situation called for it? I'm thinking about when he got captured by the wildlings.

He's a good fighter and a good person. But he didn't really become Lord Commander of the Night's Watch because he was a great leader. More like because he showed bravery in battle and did the best he could when forced into a bad situation. And because the group had been whittled down to nearly nothing so there weren't a lot of great choices left. Even then he only barely won. Now he's leading these big armies all of a sudden, at tremendous tactical disadvantage. He was never carefully trained or selected for this.

Obviously he serves some greater purpose, the Lord of Light brought him back for a reason, but that's still kind of open. I'm okay with Sansa having better leadership sense than him.
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,663
7,894
126
So the concept of dodging something coming at you is so complicated you need a boot camp? George Bush practiced dodging shoes, and thats how he was able to avoid that angry reporter? Granted, he looked like a pro, so maybe he did have some practice, but this is bar bones instinctual survival stuff.
Probably picked up his skillz dodging the draft :^P
 

ArenCordial

Senior member
Sep 18, 2012
214
15
81
Does Jon actually have to be a competent leader? Either as a general or a king? Is it necessarily contradictory or out of character to show him struggling to do a good job with this? Did he always act rationally and with a cool head when the situation called for it? I'm thinking about when he got captured by the wildlings.

He's a good fighter and a good person. But he didn't really become Lord Commander of the Night's Watch because he was a great leader. More like because he showed bravery in battle and did the best he could when forced into a bad situation. And because the group had been whittled down to nearly nothing so there weren't a lot of great choices left. Even then he only barely won. Now he's leading these big armies all of a sudden, at tremendous tactical disadvantage. He was never carefully trained or selected for this.

Obviously he serves some greater purpose, the Lord of Light brought him back for a reason, but that's still kind of open. I'm okay with Sansa having better leadership sense than him.

Yes, he has to be good leader, especially if like the above poster claims Jon should be King. Whether he likes it or not he's continually been thrust into the leadership role and Jon has accepted it. People's lives are literally in his hands and Jon being the good person he is needs to realize that. Jon frequently acts rashly and the battle against Bolton proves it, or ignores the telltale signs that he needs to notice like with the mutineers.

Cersei said it best, in the game of thrones you live or you die. Ned, Robb, and Jon all died, only Jon got a cheat through Melisandre. He needs to learn from that experience or be doomed to repeat it.

I'm not expecting Jon to be LF 2.0, that's more Sansa's role. He should however become competent enough to lead and not get himself killed by his "allies" or lead his people to ruin through his own stupidity.

Also as far as being a battle commander, I'm not sure if the show ever touched on it but the books make it clear Ned taught both him and Robb. Ned was considered one of the better commanders in Roberts Rebellion and partly why Robb was such a protege. So Jon has the know how, even if this was his first true experience. The issue wasn't tactics it was completely throwing away his own battle plans because he was ruled by his own emotions.
 
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Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,770
347
126
He's a kid living in the North, and I'm sure someone threw a few snow balls at him.
Actually he's a child of the long summer who has never known winter.

I do find it funny that just about every place that talks about the battle mentions that first. Even After the Thrones, the official HBO after show, had a funny 5 min bit illustrating the technique.

That, sr., his hilarious :-D

I went with it too. Shrugged it off and enjoyed everything else.
Shame a lot of people seem to WAAAAAAY over analyze things. Not sure how they enjoy any TV/Movie/Book.
It's the modern hipster-pop zeitgeist. "Early GOT was great"; "I liked game of thrones before it was cool"; "I used to love GOT now it's just hollywood crap".

Expressing disagreement with something that is popular, and presenting a reason, is the quickest way to look smart. When that reason doesn't hold simply ignoring how wrong you were is the surest way to prove that you aren't.

See all the posts disproving this disagreement which are entirely ignored.
 
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