HD 6000 - The rumor mill brewing

[MentalIlness]

http://www.fudzilla.com/graphics/graphics/radeon-hd-6000-is-a-minor-improvement

Tweaked HD 5000 series
ATI’s next generation Southern Islands cores are not promising anything spectacular. It looks like these cores are going to be just a tweak of ATI's existing Radeon HD 5000 series architecture.

This is mainly due the fact that this generation remains developed for 40nm and ATI still doesn’t have any new amazing architecture until 28nm and we have already reported that 28nm cores are coming sometime in 2011.

The release of the first cores based on the new improved generation is planned for October time, but ATI might introduce them in last days of September just to pull wool over investors’ eyes, as if it launches in late September it can still claim that launch took place in Q3 2010. They have already played this trump card with the Radeon HD 5000 series.

With this in mind, Nvidia at least has a fighting chance for back to school and Q4 2010 sales period. At least the graphics market will finally become interesting.

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Added:

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Posted July 20 2010

 

[OCGuy]

5XXX is just a tweaked 4XXX.

I highly doubt ATi would jump to the 6XXX naming scheme if it is as bad as this makes it sound. I hope.

 

[cbn]

Maybe ATI will add features (for better multi-GPU options) and/or increase the die size of the top chip?

 

[SlowSpyder]

5XXX is just a tweaked 4XXX.

I highly doubt ATi would jump to the 6XXX naming scheme if it is as bad as this makes it sound. I hope.

You never know, the 2900 -> 38xx wasn't too exciting. Of course that was a different situation. The 38xx was really what the 2900 should have been in my opinion, but in this case the 58xx are already really good cards all around, the 2900 was not.

Of course this is Fudzilla, their track record with Fermi wasn't so spectacular. I don't know how much faith to put into this, who knows. :/

 

[Kenmitch]

I think it's safe to say the new chips will be faster....It's just a matter of how much and at what. I'd think in the current numbering sceam that they could just use something like 5860 or 5880 or just throw an extreme on the end of the current #'s.

In the end it's best for all those concerned that the new lineup be faster than the current offerings of nvidia. I'm thinking nvidia could use a good kick in the butt. Competition is good and drives innovation!

AMD might not be able to go toe to toe with intel....But ATI can go toe to toe with nvidia.

 

[ModestGamer]

I think it's safe to say the new chips will be faster....It's just a matter of how much and at what. I'd think in the current numbering sceam that they could just use something like 5860 or 5880 or just throw an extreme on the end of the current #'s.

In the end it's best for all those concerned that the new lineup be faster than the current offerings of nvidia. I'm thinking nvidia could use a good kick in the butt. Competition is good and drives innovation!

AMD might not be able to go toe to toe with intel....But ATI can go toe to toe with nvidia.

I keep seeing this statement. yet intel and AMd split the market 60/40

OEM systems are what move parts. Maybe intel own a bigger share of the enthuasit market more like 70/30 IIRc but thats only 10% of the market.

so it is what it is.

People want cheap computers and at the OEM level AMD does cheap better then anyone else.

walmart sells computers etc.

Intel and AMd compete all day everyday.

 

[bryanW1995]

I think it's safe to say the new chips will be faster....It's just a matter of how much and at what. I'd think in the current numbering sceam that they could just use something like 5860 or 5880 or just throw an extreme on the end of the current #'s.

In the end it's best for all those concerned that the new lineup be faster than the current offerings of nvidia. I'm thinking nvidia could use a good kick in the butt. Competition is good and drives innovation!

AMD might not be able to go toe to toe with intel....But ATI can go toe to toe with nvidia.

maybe they could go minimalist and just add a "+" to the card name.

I think it's safe to say the new chips will be faster....It's just a matter of how much and at what. I'd think in the current numbering sceam that they could just use something like 5860 or 5880 or just throw an extreme on the end of the current #'s.

In the end it's best for all those concerned that the new lineup be faster than the current offerings of nvidia. I'm thinking nvidia could use a good kick in the butt. Competition is good and drives innovation!

AMD might not be able to go toe to toe with intel....But ATI can go toe to toe with nvidia.

yes, but if amd had some high end parts they could get closer to 67% gross margin instead of 45%.

 

[lambchops511]

5XXX is just a tweaked 4XXX.

I highly doubt ATi would jump to the 6XXX naming scheme if it is as bad as this makes it sound. I hope.

we're pretty close back to the ATI 8/9XXX schema XD

 

[Corporate Thug]

I keep seeing this statement. yet intel and AMd split the market 60/40

OEM systems are what move parts. Maybe intel own a bigger share of the enthuasit market more like 70/30 IIRc but thats only 10% of the market.

so it is what it is.

People want cheap computers and at the OEM level AMD does cheap better then anyone else.

walmart sells computers etc.

Intel and AMd compete all day everyday.

Without even looking it up, my guess is that intel sees much higher profit margins per each processor sold. market share is only half the story.

 

[sandorski]

Wut? Same Process does not mean Same Architecture.

 

[Ben90]

I keep seeing this statement. yet intel and AMd split the market 60/40

OEM systems are what move parts. Maybe intel own a bigger share of the enthuasit market more like 70/30 IIRc but thats only 10% of the market.

so it is what it is.

People want cheap computers and at the OEM level AMD does cheap better then anyone else.

walmart sells computers etc.

Intel and AMd compete all day everyday.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2089619

Intel is competing against the FTC

 

[ViRGE]

5XXX is just a tweaked 4XXX.

And 4xxx<-3xxx<-2xxx. Even NVIDIA's "major" revamp for Fermi is still solidly built upon G80's ROPs, texture units, and SPs.

No one throws away a mature design - if you're doing that then it means your existing design has somehow failed (P4) or has hit a wall and can't be expanded (DX9-class GPUs). AMD will continue to iterate their VLIW design, and NVIDIA will continue to iterate their (super)scalar design, just as how AMD and Intel continue to iterate their CPU designs.

 

[Tsavo]

I vote they be cheeky bastards and name them ATI GTX-R 490.

 

[netxzero64]

maybe the 6xxx series will be a higher clocked plus better efficiency (TDP) than the 5xxx series..

 

[tviceman]

maybe the 6xxx series will be a higher clocked plus better efficiency (TDP) than the 5xxx series..

It'll definitely be a better performing part, but since it's on the same node process and using some of their next-gen design (which was meant for 28-32nm) their high end 6x00 cards are going to be bigger chips than what currently makes up the 5800 series and because of the increased performance, it'll have a higher TDP. It's just common sense.

If ATI were to just stick with their current design and tweak it as much as possible, lower TDP with better performance would be realistic, but it's probably in ATI's best interest to move forward and work on their next gen designs.

 

[RaistlinZ]

Hopefully the 6000 series won't also come with a year worth of price gouging like the 5000 series did.

 

[Dribble]

ATI traditionally hasn't got the money for a lot of development strands. I suspect they are really focusing on their true next gen part (based on 28nm). Hence this sounds more like something to keep the fan boys happy until the real deal comes out later in 2011.

 

[Lonyo]

ATI traditionally hasn't got the money for a lot of development strands. I strongly suspect they are really focusing on their true next gen part (based on 28nm). Hence this sounds more like something to keep the fan boys happy until the real deal comes out later in 2011.

It's been touted as a stop gap for a long time, due (mainly) to process delays at TSMC.
No one really expected a massive leap anyway (or if they did I want some of whatever they are smoking).
More typically, significant leaps come with a new process, which we don't have so most people treated it more like a bit of a refresh/problem solver product than a great leap.

 

[bryanW1995]

that's possible, but they probably smell blood right now with nvidia's poor recent performance. they'll probably go to 400-425 mm2 and incorporate as many of the new SI features as possible, and just use 28nm as a die shrink 12-18 mos later.

 

[dug777]

It's been touted as a stop gap for a long time, due (mainly) to process delays at TSMC.
No one really expected a massive leap anyway (or if they did I want some of whatever they are smoking).
More typically, significant leaps come with a new process, which we don't have so most people treated it more like a bit of a refresh/problem solver product than a great leap.

Agreed, and I don't know where the reference to fan boys came from. From my reading of the benchmarks AMD/ATi don't need to tweak the 5870/5850 hugely to get a leg up on top against the 480/470, and if the pricing is right then it's video card enthusiasts that benefit, not just fan boys

Even if they just do a midrange set of parts (hard to see where that would slot in compared to the 5850, to my mind that should drop in price to comfortably shade out the GTX 460 or be replaced with a comparably performing but cheaper to produce card) if the price/performance is right, everyone gains...

 

[Tempered81]

Despite what charlie wrote about the new chip having next gen setup & uncore and having Evergreen shaders, it's actually rumoured to be a fairly radical change inside compared to HD2000-HD5000 series regarding 5D shader groups' composition. 1600 -> 1920, but more importantly, the 1600 Stream processors changes format from 4+1 (5 sp composition) ALU to a 3+1 '4D' or a 2 big + 2 small '4D' ALU. EG is rumoured to be a maximum of 80&#37; efficient in its current 4+1 setup, so chopping 1 shader off wont make a big difference - but would actually increase efficiency as there would be less frequenly unused space on the core. But it will increase the chip's overall performance per square inch (or millimeter), and reduce die size.

Even without changes to the memory controller & setup engine or parts of the 'uncore' a 1600 SP core in Ati's new '4D' format would be more powerful than a 1600 SP core in the current '5D' ALU design (cypress EG). The reason is that Cypress is currently 20 SIMDs x 16 ALUs x 5 SP's = 1600sp's (320 alu). Hypothetically, with a 4D shader ALU design, a 1600sp Cypress would be arranged - for example - 20 SIMDs x 24 ALUs x 4 SP's (400 ALU total). 400 ALUs > 320 ALUs, even though both chips have 1600sp.

Starting with the HD 2900XT the ALU count basically increased to the next generation like this: 64 -> 64 -> 160 -> 320 -> 480; with the shader count increasing like this: 320 -> 320 -> 800 -> 1600 -> 1920. Since HD6870 is rumoured to have 1920SP in the 4D format, it would equal a total of 480 ALUs. 320 ALUs represents the Cypress EG core aka HD5870. The performance gain from the 4870 over the 3870 was ~92% the increase in total ALU count was 2.5 fold (64 to 160). The performance gain from the 5870 over the 4870 was ~68% and the increase in ALU count was two fold (160 to 320). This can give point to measure theoretical performance of the next gen; my personal expectation is a gain of ~40-45% over the 5870 as a result of ALU count increasing from 320 to 480. The new chip's rumored size is 40nm @ ~395mm^2 compared to the 334mm^2 Cypress and the 535mm^2 Fermi.

If they change core & memory speeds (ex: low latency 6gbps GDDR5) or much of the design of the uncore in 6870 - like the Memory controller, Rasterizers, Tessellator and Setup Engine, it would only serve to add pontential performance (shader modifications aside).

I'll be happy if the 6870 is on par with the 5970 or even a few clicks faster. This would put it 20% faster than a GTX480 and 10% faster than 512sp Fermi. Rick Bergman said Q4 2010, so my guess is Oct 15 - Nov 30th release.

 

[MrK6]

Nvm, reading Tempered's post above :awe:

EDIT: That's some excellent info, thanks. Hopefully it turns out to be the case. If they can get that kind of performance while maintaining a similar power and noise profile, I'm getting one on launch day.

 

[netxzero64]

well GF is gonna be online soon for the 28nm or the 22nm? ready for the new breed of graphics from AMD

 

[dug777]

Nvm, reading Tempered's post above :awe:

EDIT: That's some excellent info, thanks. Hopefully it turns out to be the case. If they can get that kind of performance while maintaining a similar power and noise profile, I'm getting one on launch day.

2nded, very interesting indeed

 

[Kenmitch]

Too bad ATI doens't play the nvidia hype game....Would be nice to get an idea of what the future is bringing from the Red team! But I guess in the end it's better that they don't as sometimes things just don't work out in real life like they do on paper!

I'd say out of all the current nvidia lineup the GTX 460 brings the most hurt to ATI. I'd think that something to compete with it would be high on the priority list. But on the other hand the 5970 has been on top for way longer than anybody would have ever thought.