HD video (1080p) on an old, old PC

[WinnieNicklaus]

Hi,

I've been doing some research, but I just can't keep up with all the information and complication out there surrounding video cards. Hopefully some of you can share your expertise with me. Here's the situation:

- I'm trying to turn a Dell Dimension 4500 (circa 2002) into a home theater PC without spending too much. I stole a stick of RAM from another, crappier Dimension to bring it up to 1 GB. It's running with a Pentium 4 (single core... :whiste. I have a hunch the speed is 2.4 GHz, but it could be as low as 2.0 or as high as 2.8, I don't remember. (I can check later tonight if that's crucial.) It only has PCI (4) and AGP (1) slots, no PCI-Express.

- I want to be able to watch HD content, both from Blu-ray discs (I'm planning to buy a Blu-ray drive for it) and broadcast TV through a tuner card (which I also haven't bought yet).

Obviously, I can't watch 1080p content. I tried watching a test file and the CPU leapt to 100% while I watched the first frame for the entire 30-second clip. No surprise there. So I want to buy a video card that can handle all of the decoding. I'd love for it to have an HDMI output, as I'd like to send both sound and video to my HDTV. I can work around a DVI output, though.

Is there any hope for me, or am I totally out to lunch? Thanks!

PS - I have zero interest in gaming or video editing, so this only needs to be able to handle video playback.

 

[blastingcap]

EDIT: Disregard the following which I wrote before I caught that part about no PCI-Express. If you only have PCI, how about a HD4350; I know they make those with PCI slots in mind, e.g., http://www.hisdigital.com/un/product2-444.shtml and http://www.amazon.com/HIS-H435H512P...ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=pc&qid=1286821298&sr=1-1 ($80 though... wow) Also some pricey AGP cards but that's kind of the same problem.

Isn't PCIe is backwards-compatible with PCI, just that your bandwidth will be choked? And the HD5570 may be too fast for that bandwidth limit... I'm not sure.

In any case, for $80 you might as well just upgrade to a mobo with a modern IGP, like an AMD 785 board or something. Pair it with a $20 CPU and some RAM and you're good to go.

Funny you picked today to ask this. If you don't need 3D, the $80 HD5570 is a good bet, per today's article right here on Anandtech no less: http://www.anandtech.com/show/3973/nvidias-geforce-gt-430/4 You might be able to find some on sale for less, because I know that HD5670s have been on sale for less, and those are even stronger cards than the HD5570.

The HD5450 is decent but doesn't give quite as good visuals and isn't that much cheaper.. gives probably about the same quality as the $80 GT430.

Another HQV comparison here (it's a bit out of date because AMD recently updated its drivers to give better visuals at default settings): http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HQV/HQV_2.0/8.html

 

[WinnieNicklaus]

Thanks, blastingcap. The HIS HD4350 looks like it costs around $75. I'd love a cheaper option if anyone can suggest one, though I know I can't get picky. By the way, how much more is needed to do 3D? The projector I'm using is "3D-ready", and while I don't really have much interest in it, if it's not that much more money to keep it available to me, I might consider it.

 

[AtenRa]

I would wait till Q1 2010 and get a Bobcat motherboard/cpu combo

 

[blastingcap]

Thanks, blastingcap. The HIS HD4350 looks like it costs around $75. I'd love a cheaper option if anyone can suggest one, though I know I can't get picky. By the way, how much more is needed to do 3D? The projector I'm using is "3D-ready", and while I don't really have much interest in it, if it's not that much more money to keep it available to me, I might consider it.

Yeah sorry I realized how much it cost and edited my post accordingly... I don't know if PCI bus can even handle 3D@1080p. You might be better off upgrading the system entirely at that point.

 

[WinnieNicklaus]

In any case, for $80 you might as well just upgrade to a mobo with a modern IGP, like an AMD 785 board or something. Pair it with a $20 CPU and some RAM and you're good to go.

Well, I'll forget the 3D-thing, that was an afterthought anyway. Just so I understand, are you saying that the graphics processors integrated into modern motherboards are capable of decoding 1080p video, even with a cheap CPU?

 

[betasub]

LOL at "3D 1080p 120Hz" with a PCI bus gfx card. Meh to "3D-ready" marketing.

However, if that projector is as expensive as I think it is, it really deserves a better system to drive it.

 

[fffblackmage]

Isn't PCIe is backwards-compatible with PCI, just that your bandwidth will be choked? And the HD5570 may be too fast for that bandwidth limit... I'm not sure.

I'm pretty sure PCIe is not compatible with PCI. The slots aren't even the same anyways. Actually, the full PCIe x16 slot kinda looks like a backwards PCI slot....

 

[blastingcap]

I'm pretty sure PCIe is not compatible with PCI. The slots aren't even the same anyways. Actually, the full PCIe x16 slot kinda looks like a backwards PCI slot....

My bad, from 2001 till 2006, I used laptops almost exclusively and thus didn't keep up with the bus changes on desktop expansion slots.

 

[blastingcap]

Well, I'll forget the 3D-thing, that was an afterthought anyway. Just so I understand, are you saying that the graphics processors integrated into modern motherboards are capable of decoding 1080p video, even with a cheap CPU?

Yes. I was running a cheap Athlon II X2 240 CPU + the old mobo in my sig (780G integrated graphics) just fine with 1080p decoding. Hell, even without the IGP, the Athlon II X2 240 is enough to decode 1080p all by itself, and it's a $30 processor during sales. You could also get a Sempron (single core CPU) for even less during sales. Full price they are still just ~$25. Semprons might need a bit of help from the IGP but the combined CPU+GPU should be fine for 1080p.

Keep in mind that 780G is so old that it's not even being sold anymore. And with the imminent launches of Sandy Bridge and Bobcat, the GPU will actually be on the same die as the CPU. If you don't want to wait for Bobcat/SB, then more relevant for you is this review of the 785G chipset, which is still being sold:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2815/3

There is a comparable chipset from NVIDIA but I wouldn't touch any chipsets from them because Intel killed NVIDIA's chipset business, so who knows what kind of support (or lack thereof) NVIDIA will offer on their chipsets in the future? That was the main reason why I went with AMD integrated graphics instead of NVIDIA.

 

[fffblackmage]

My bad, from 2001 till 2006, I used laptops almost exclusively and thus didn't keep up with the bus changes on desktop expansion slots.

It's cool. Now you know.

Well, I'll forget the 3D-thing, that was an afterthought anyway. Just so I understand, are you saying that the graphics processors integrated into modern motherboards are capable of decoding 1080p video, even with a cheap CPU?

My low-end HTPC consists of an Athlon II X2 240 (2.8GHz) and a crappy nVidia 6150SE-based mobo. The Athlon 240 alone has been able to play all the 1080 h264 encoded video I've thrown at it so far. It also has a 4550, but doesn't seem to like some videos encoded with certain settings.

If you want to know if something like the 785G-based mobo can play 1080p video without a discrete gfx card, yes, it will. The HD4200 (the IGP) has the same h264 decoding hardware as discrete gfx cards. You can take a look here if you're interested: Wiki - Unified Video Decoder

edit: blastingcap was faster! D=

 

[blastingcap]

It's cool. Now you know.


My low-end HTPC consists of an Athlon II X2 240 (2.8GHz) and a crappy nVidia 6150SE-based mobo. The Athlon 240 alone has been able to play all the 1080 h264 encoded video I've thrown at it so far. It also has a 4550, but doesn't seem to like some videos encoded with certain settings.

If you want to know if something like the 785G-based mobo can play 1080p video without a discrete gfx card, yes, it will. The HD4200 (the IGP) has the same h264 decoding hardware as discrete gfx cards. You can take a look here if you're interested: Wiki - Unified Video Decoder

edit: blastingcap was faster! D=

It's cool, we both have the same CPU, high-five!

I also am in full agreement with you. Additionally, I edited my post to specifically recommend against NV chipsets though as that business got destroyed courtesy of Intel, so how much support NV will give their chipsets in the future is suspect.

 

[WinnieNicklaus]

Thanks, your posts are very helpful. Sounds like a cheap motherboard might be a better bet for me -- that would also give me some PCIe slots if I ever need them, since PCI is such a hurdle. Would it matter if I just kept my 1 GB of memory?

 

[blastingcap]

Thanks, your posts are very helpful. Sounds like a cheap motherboard might be a better bet for me -- that would also give me some PCIe slots if I ever need them, since PCI is such a hurdle. Would it matter if I just kept my 1 GB of memory?

If you live in a state with a Fry's Electronics store, they often have CPU+mobo combo deals for cheap (I think I've seen decent combos for $50 before). With that, you have the core hardware needed for an HTPC.

Perhaps you could reuse your case, HDD, optical drive, and maybe even the power supply and RAM, though I doubt 2002-vintage memory would work on a modern mobo. You can look up mobo spec sheets online to see what they say, though, before you buy.

 

[WinnieNicklaus]

Thank you all very much!

 

[fffblackmage]

It's cool, we both have the same CPU, high-five!

I also am in full agreement with you. Additionally, I edited my post to specifically recommend against NV chipsets though as that business got destroyed courtesy of Intel, so how much support NV will give their chipsets in the future is suspect.

I only got the nV-based mobo because of a Fry's deal. I don't like chipset; wish i got the 780G at the very least.

If you live in a state with a Fry's Electronics store, they often have CPU+mobo combo deals for cheap (I think I've seen decent combos for $50 before). With that, you have the core hardware needed for an HTPC.

Unfortunately, Fry's no longer do the CPU+mobo deals anymore. :'(
But as long as you're looking, you'll find good deals on mobos and cpus every once in a while.

@Blastingcap
BTW, earlier you mentioned "Isn't PCIe is backwards-compatible with PCI, just that your bandwidth will be choked?"
PCI isn't compatible with PCIe, but a PCIe x1 card can be used in a PCIe x16 slot. That's what you were thinking about.

 

[blastingcap]

Aw nuts, I liked Fry's combos even though I never actually bought one.

Yeah I am confused re PCI/e stuff, I will shut my trap on that.

The NV chipset isn't totally horrible and anyway the Athlon II X2 240 can deal with video fine all by itself, as we both agreed on... I just think it's risky due to NV's fast-fading chipset division. Sort of like buying something without a warranty.

The HD3200 GPU on my 780G chipset is semi-decent despite its age. I overvolted it by .1 volts and overclocked it from 500MHz to 750MHz and have been playing Left4Dead at 1280x800 (all details turned down except AF which I set to Trilinear). Even with my slow DDR2-800 RAM, I get playable framerates. I'm still going to override it with a HD6850 or HD6870 though, if only because I want to be able to use all three of my 22" monitors again.

I only got the nV-based mobo because of a Fry's deal. I don't like chipset; wish i got the 780G at the very least.

Unfortunately, Fry's no longer do the CPU+mobo deals anymore. :'(
But as long as you're looking, you'll find good deals on mobos and cpus every once in a while.

@Blastingcap
BTW, earlier you mentioned "Isn't PCIe is backwards-compatible with PCI, just that your bandwidth will be choked?"
PCI isn't compatible with PCIe, but a PCIe x1 card can be used in a PCIe x16 slot. That's what you were thinking about.

 

[cusideabelincoln]

Perhaps you could reuse your case, HDD, optical drive, and maybe even the power supply and RAM, though I doubt 2002-vintage memory would work on a modern mobo. You can look up mobo spec sheets online to see what they say, though, before you buy.

There's a chance the mobo, case, and PSU are proprietary. I do not recommend reusing the PSU at all. If it's proprietary then it can damage a standard ATX motherboard. Also since it is so old I doubt it will have the proper power output on the +12V rail. Not to mention it will be inefficient.

The case may not be standard ATX, but it wouldn't hurt to try fitting a standard ATX mobo. There's also the possibility the PSU mounts on the case are not standard ATX either.

The RAM will NOT BE USEABLE at all. DDR2 or DDR3 did not exist in 2002. He is using the first DDR or maybe even RDRAM.

Optical drive probably isn't worth carrying over since he's going to be using Blu-ray anyway.

The hard drive he could reuse. But IDE is slowly fading and some new boards don't come with PATA ports so be careful when getting a new board.

AGP would be the way to go if sticking with this old build.
HD 3450
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121315

HD 3650
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102814

Ebay might be a good options. Try to find the cheapest out of these: HD 2400 Pro, HD 2400 XT, HD 2600 Pro, HD 2600 XT, HD 3450, HD 3650.

 

[blastingcap]

Good points, especially about the 12V and efficiency of the PSU. Over time the inefficient PSU's wasted electrical usage costs money. And aging capacitors erode its realistic max wattage. I did wonder about the PSU esp. since it was Dell, hence my hedging on that and the vintage RAM.

The optical drive may be worth salvaging despite the Blu-Ray drive, even if it's sole purpose is as a backup drive.

There's a chance the mobo, case, and PSU are proprietary. I do not recommend reusing the PSU at all. If it's proprietary then it can damage a standard ATX motherboard. Also since it is so old I doubt it will have the proper power output on the +12V rail. Not to mention it will be inefficient.

The case may not be standard ATX, but it wouldn't hurt to try fitting a standard ATX mobo. There's also the possibility the PSU mounts on the case are not standard ATX either.

The RAM will NOT BE USEABLE at all. DDR2 or DDR3 did not exist in 2002. He is using the first DDR or maybe even RDRAM.

Optical drive probably isn't worth carrying over since he's going to be using Blu-ray anyway.

The hard drive he could reuse. But IDE is slowly fading and some new boards don't come with PATA ports so be careful when getting a new board.

Edit to respond to your edit: Your ebay suggestion was great! Why didn't I think of that? An old AGP HD2400 would work, and the used ones seem to go for less than $50.

 

[MangoX]

My low-end HTPC consists of an Athlon II X2 240 (2.8GHz) and a crappy nVidia 6150SE-based mobo. The Athlon 240 alone has been able to play all the 1080 h264 encoded video I've thrown at it so far. It also has a 4550, but doesn't seem to like some videos encoded with certain settings.

The UVD2 decoder doesn't exactly fully support H264, but it does fully support videos encoded to bluray specs. AMD only aimed to support Bluray with UVD2. The decoder will crash whenever you try to play any video with a highly customized profile. Anime comes to mind... UVD3 which will be featured in the 6xxx will fully support H264.

 

[WinnieNicklaus]

The longer the thread gets, the more components get replaced. I have a SATA hard drive that I could use (not sure know if it's SATA II, I bought it in 2006). So at this point I'm thinking this could work:

Gigabyte GA-MA785GM / AMD Sempron combo from newegg: http://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboD...t=Combo.524247
$92

PNY Optima 2GB of DDR2 RAM from amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/PNY-Channel-PC...6828028&sr=1-6
$40

SATA Blu-ray drive from amazon: http://www.amazon.com/LITE--Blu-ray-...6827534&sr=8-1
$55

Haven't priced a tuner card yet.

Now I have to prepare a sales pitch to a skeptical wife...

 

[WinnieNicklaus]

AGP would be the way to go if sticking with this old build.

Are you suggesting this with the assumption that the mobo and CPU would be replaced, or would this work with the current setup?

 

[blastingcap]

Are you suggesting this with the assumption that the mobo and CPU would be replaced, or would this work with the current setup?

It would work with current setup. Abe is right, an ebayed AGP HD2400 Pro should be fine--if the CPU is up to the task. That's a big if. You can't ever get 100% of the video decoding to be done on the GPU, there will be some stuff left over for the CPU to do. A Pentium 4 2.4GHz is pretty sickly: http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php And the slow DDR RAM won't help.

I mention this because according to that Anandtech review of the 785G, which uses UVD, playing back Blu-Ray used ~20-25% of a Athlon II X2 250's CPU resources. An Athlon II X2 250 is more than five times as fast as a Pentium 4 2.4Ghz according to that synthetic benchmark (1704 vs. 315). So you could be in for a situation where the Pentium 4 can't keep up with the UVD and you start dropping frames.

 

[fffblackmage]

It also has a 4550, but doesn't seem to like some videos encoded with certain settings.

The UVD2 decoder doesn't exactly fully support H264, but it does fully support videos encoded to bluray specs. AMD only aimed to support Bluray with UVD2. The decoder will crash whenever you try to play any video with a highly customized profile. Anime comes to mind... UVD3 which will be featured in the 6xxx will fully support H264.

I was trying to get DXVA to work again, and I finally got DXVA to work on videos that failed to work before. Before, I was only able to play videos conforming to the L3.1 and L4.1 profiles, but now it seems to be working for L5.0 and L5.1 profiles - so far... those customized profiles like you said could screw things up. I wouldn't be surprised if they did anyways.

Apparently, all I needed was update the MPC-HC and Haali Media Splitter. I was just using what came with CCCP before.

I feel like my cheapy HTPC is now awesome.

It would work with current setup. Abe is right, an ebayed AGP HD2400 Pro should be fine--if the CPU is up to the task. That's a big if. You can't ever get 100% of the video decoding to be done on the GPU, there will be some stuff left over for the CPU to do. A Pentium 4 2.4GHz is pretty sickly: http://www.cpubenchmark.net/cpu_list.php And the slow DDR RAM won't help.

I would note that the HD2000 series is UVD 1.0 (?) and the HD3000 series is UVD+. I have no idea how compatible they are with most H264 profiles.

If you really want to get a gfx card for DXVA-enabled playback... well, this is the cheapest AGP HD4000 series video card on newegg:
SAPPHIRE 100288L Radeon HD 4650 1GB 128-bit DDR2 AGP 8X HDCP Ready Video Card
$75 with an additional $15 MIR. Rather expensive for "low-end" card.

There's also a PCI alternative for $40: SPARKLE SFPC84GS256U2LP GeForce 8400 GS 256MB 64-bit GDDR2 PCI HDCP Ready Video Card
I have no idea if the PCI standard is too slow for 1080p video. I doubt it, but I am not certain.

 

[mtnd3vil]

Just a thought, but when my media PC was a P4 and I wanted to watch 1080p movies on my TV ... It was an 8800GT, CUDA, and COREAVC codec that came through for me.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/cuda_home_new.html
http://corecodec.com/products/coreavc