HD4870 1GB - worth it?

[ronnn]

This many threads on the same subject is well known as fodder for flame wars. I stay as unclear as ever.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: ronnn
This many threads on the same subject is well known as fodder for flame wars. I stay as unclear as ever.

I think he's trying to tell you "Argue all you like about drivers and GTX260 vs HD4870 as both are mentioned in the OP, but don't turn this into the 1,245th chapter of "Why I don't like the focus group".

 

[imported_BikeDude]

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd
It's generally better to release a supported driver more often.

Although I have never come across software that does not contain bugs, I do feel the idea of monthly bug fixes to be a bit much. That would seem to indicate that something is fundamentally flawed.

OK, I can accept that CF is a complicated piece of technology and that individual fittings is required. It is far from ideal, but probably brought on by circumstances outside AMD's control. But you guys are not discussing that. You are debating bug fixes.

A game like Far Cry 2 is not released without a certain amount of testing. I would assume they did quite a lot of testing to make sure their game ran sufficiently well on the AMD platform. Or did they not? (it would have been much better had Derek Wilson tried to answer that question before pointing the big finger of blame, but at the same time... AMD knows the answer to that question by now and are free to tell us in that case)

I have seen comments by game developers over the years pointing at problems with both manufacturers, so historically I do not think it is not a question of nVidia being less bugprone than AMD.

From my personal experience as an end-user, I know first hand that nVidia's drivers for the past two years have been less than problem-free. BSODs. Freezing problems. Video playback issues. All disappeared eventually after several rounds of bug fixing. Sometimes a driver would introduce a new problem, but eventually it seems they mostly went away. I even have the correct colour profile loaded on my Vista system now. I cannot remember problems with any games at the moment, but I do not get to play many games these days. (and quite frankly, system crashes are more serious than stuff popping or not popping up in a game)

When the 4870 first appeared, I was one of the first who cried "yes please! I want to escape the horrible nVidia drivers!". The discussions sparked by Derek's observations have given me reason for pause.

What I really miss is the opportunity to report bugs. I once tried to tell nVidia that their support for PAE was broken (79.11 is probably still the last version supporting PAE properly), but found that to be impossible. Gainward refused to pass on my bug report and there was no way I could get in touch with nVidia myself.

Personally, I do not want any driver updates at all. I just want everything to work the way it is supposed to. If there are monthly updates to fix bugs over a two year period, without any significant new features being added, then I think an alarm bell should sound somewhere. Or, when nVidia releases a driver that cannot cope with 30 minutes worth of DVD playback (don't worry now, that was a year ago), someone ought to be flogged. Especially when users felt the need to upgrade to that version to fix other issues... That's just messy.

As a software developer, I too am responsible for annoying people with bugs. BUT! My bugs do not cause people to question their system and tricking them into reinstalling everything (somehow many people are still convinced reinstalling the OS will help, because their experience with Win9x is carried over to 2000/XP/Vista). My bugs don't trigger BSODs. Writing kernel mode drivers is a different game altogether. (or should be!)

 

[evolucion8]

The Far Cry 2 Anandtech's review shows that the HD 4870 1GB performs dangerously close and often outperforms the GTX 280 which is more powerful than the GTX 260. Not because of this, but in general, the HD 4870 1GB is overall better than the GTX 260 which doen't have DX10.1, VC-1 acceleration, wose 2D image quality, less VRAM, same old technology as the almost 3 years old 8800GTX, the GTX 260 Core 216 is a nice card, and the manufacturer's warranty is nice, but meh. ATi did good this time after two flops.

 

[AmberClad]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: ronnn
This many threads on the same subject is well known as fodder for flame wars. I stay as unclear as ever.

I think he's trying to tell you "Argue all you like about drivers and GTX260 vs HD4870 as both are mentioned in the OP, but don't turn this into the 1,245th chapter of "Why I don't like the focus group".

I'm not a "he", thank you very much .

 

[solofly]

Originally posted by: evolucion8
The Far Cry 2 Anandtech's review shows that the HD 4870 1GB performs dangerously close and often outperforms the GTX 280 which is more powerful than the GTX 260. Not because of this, but in general, the HD 4870 1GB is overall better than the GTX 260 which doen't have DX10.1, VC-1 acceleration, wose 2D image quality, less VRAM, same old technology as the almost 3 years old 8800GTX, the GTX 260 Core 216 is a nice card, and the manufacturer's warranty is nice, but meh. ATi did good this time after two flops.

You got that right... :thumbsup:

 

[Wreckage]

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/15651

Clearly the GTX 260 (216) is the better card over even the 4870 1GB

You can get a factory overclocked card for $245 with a lifetime warranty. Free Shipping no rebates.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16814130400

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: AmberClad

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: ronnn
This many threads on the same subject is well known as fodder for flame wars. I stay as unclear as ever.

I think he's trying to tell you "Argue all you like about drivers and GTX260 vs HD4870 as both are mentioned in the OP, but don't turn this into the 1,245th chapter of "Why I don't like the focus group".

I'm not a "he", thank you very much .

<Rollo falls off chair>

A woman on the video forum?!

I thought the ladies were way too smart to be around this sort of "Ugh, my video card can beat up your video card" shenanigans and just rolled your eyes at such chest thumping.

:beer:

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: evolucion8
The Far Cry 2 Anandtech's review shows that the HD 4870 1GB performs dangerously close and often outperforms the GTX 280 which is more powerful than the GTX 260. Not because of this, but in general, the HD 4870 1GB is overall better than the GTX 260 which doen't have DX10.1, VC-1 acceleration, wose 2D image quality, less VRAM, same old technology as the almost 3 years old 8800GTX, the GTX 260 Core 216 is a nice card, and the manufacturer's warranty is nice, but meh. ATi did good this time after two flops.

Could you please link us to a review that uses the latest drivers and backs your claim?

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: nRollo

A woman on the video forum?!

I thought the ladies were way too smart to be around this sort of "Ugh, my video card can beat up your video card" shenanigans and just rolled your eyes at such chest thumping.

That might be why she makes a good mod here.

 

[tim924]

He's talking about reviews like 6 months ago where nvida only had 192sp version of gtx 260 and without the latest update big bang driver,a bit outdated wasnt it?
however there's some reviews which just came out this month,take a look,the results speak for itself who's the better choice as of now:
1.http://www.motherboards.org/re...s/hardware/1836_8.html

2.http://www.firingsquad.com/har..._gtx_260_black_review/

3. http://www.neoseeker.com/Artic...eviews/xfxgtx260black/

Opinions could be lies,facts dont

 

[chizow]

Originally posted by: solofly

Originally posted by: evolucion8
The Far Cry 2 Anandtech's review shows that the HD 4870 1GB performs dangerously close and often outperforms the GTX 280 which is more powerful than the GTX 260. Not because of this, but in general, the HD 4870 1GB is overall better than the GTX 260 which doen't have DX10.1, VC-1 acceleration, wose 2D image quality, less VRAM, same old technology as the almost 3 years old 8800GTX, the GTX 260 Core 216 is a nice card, and the manufacturer's warranty is nice, but meh. ATi did good this time after two flops.

You got that right... :thumbsup:

The GTX 280 benches are clearly dated and don't include any of the latest Far Cry 2 performance improvements, at least 3 weeks old as of publication. Comparing the GTX 280 results to the Far Cry 2 Blog, v.2 absolutely confirms this. Ironically, Derek was willing to publish benchmarks with old drivers for Nvidia parts, but cites the reason for delay of Far Cry 2 review due to ATI driver problems:

• October 30th Blog
  
  Well, in this case it was the fact that AMD just released a new hotfix driver for Far Cry 2 that fixes a couple rendering issues the original hotfix had. It wouldn't do to publish an article with numbers from an old driver, so here we are retesting things.

3 weeks and who knows how many Hot Fixes later, he pushes out the Far Cry 2 results, with old Nvidia drivers and presumably the latest ATI drivers, which still weren't without problems. Buried in his rant pooping on ATI drivers, he reveals the extent to which the results are completely doctored:

• November 21st Blog
  
  In our tests, we initially wanted to take the 3 run average for each test. This was not something we could do with AMD hardware as even our benchmark sessions were marred with ridiculous stuttering and slow downs. We would have performance range from 25 to 55 frames per second on any given test. Rather than take the average, we decided to take the highest performance run for NVIDIA and AMD. It is worth noting that most of the performance results for NVIDIA were within less than a frame per second difference, so average versus max performance run isn't that different.....
  
  ....Our choice to publish this article now is based on the fact that we absolutely expect AMD to fix their performance issues in Far Cry 2 as soon as possible....
  

Derek basically admits to fabricating his results and throwing any semblance of journalistic integrity out the window. Instead of showing AMD performance as tested, he published manipulated results on what he hopes to see in future driver updates. One might actually think he was completely biased towards AMD if he didn't spend an entire page for the 4th or 5th time this month pooping all over AMD's driver model. I'm really hoping Derek wakes up on Monday and pulls both the Far Cry 2 and Rel 180 reviews until he fixes the glaring problems with them.


Summary:
1. AT is the only site that shows ATI parts in the same ballpark as NV with Far Cry 2.
2. AT's Far Cry 2 review is horribly flawed and the Rel 180 review highly suspect as well.
3. Citing AT's reviews would lead you to the wrong conclusions.

 

[Ares202]

I know this is a forum and everyone should have their opinion but these Nvidia focus group members pick on a opinion in a post turn every topic into a Nvidia vs ATI battle, it really stops people getting there questions answered properly, there always first in if theres a topic thats really critical of Nvidia those two are usually a no-show

what rallo types is mostly truths but because only one point of view is splattered all over every other topic its basically PR+Active promotion as far as im concered as they only criticise ATI and promote Nvidia in all posts, lets face it both cards manufacturers right down the line from integrated to enthuisiast have their pros and cons for buying the respective cards, most people come here for help and the two focus group members usually make a good effort to hijack a topic from its intended purpose

yeh just for the book i own a ATI 4870 and a 8800gt both which im happy with

Also didnt Anadtech conclude that the GTX 216 vs 4870 1GB was inconclusive and it comes down to what games and settings you prefer?

 

[solofly]

I'm gonna give ATI benefit of the doubt and wait for Cat 9.1...

Once again...

We managed to find out that some of these optimizations are also going to wait for the next Catalyst 9.1 which should probably come sometime next year. The optimizations are going to influence both single board and CrossFire configurations and the only issue is the titles for which Nvidia apparently had more time to optimize than ATI.

http://www.fudzilla.com/index....view&id=10575&Itemid=1

 

[cmdrdredd]

Originally posted by: BikeDude

Originally posted by: cmdrdredd
It's generally better to release a supported driver more often.

Although I have never come across software that does not contain bugs, I do feel the idea of monthly bug fixes to be a bit much. That would seem to indicate that something is fundamentally flawed.

OK, I can accept that CF is a complicated piece of technology and that individual fittings is required. It is far from ideal, but probably brought on by circumstances outside AMD's control. But you guys are not discussing that. You are debating bug fixes.

A game like Far Cry 2 is not released without a certain amount of testing. I would assume they did quite a lot of testing to make sure their game ran sufficiently well on the AMD platform. Or did they not? (it would have been much better had Derek Wilson tried to answer that question before pointing the big finger of blame, but at the same time... AMD knows the answer to that question by now and are free to tell us in that case)

I have seen comments by game developers over the years pointing at problems with both manufacturers, so historically I do not think it is not a question of nVidia being less bugprone than AMD.

From my personal experience as an end-user, I know first hand that nVidia's drivers for the past two years have been less than problem-free. BSODs. Freezing problems. Video playback issues. All disappeared eventually after several rounds of bug fixing. Sometimes a driver would introduce a new problem, but eventually it seems they mostly went away. I even have the correct colour profile loaded on my Vista system now. I cannot remember problems with any games at the moment, but I do not get to play many games these days. (and quite frankly, system crashes are more serious than stuff popping or not popping up in a game)

When the 4870 first appeared, I was one of the first who cried "yes please! I want to escape the horrible nVidia drivers!". The discussions sparked by Derek's observations have given me reason for pause.

What I really miss is the opportunity to report bugs. I once tried to tell nVidia that their support for PAE was broken (79.11 is probably still the last version supporting PAE properly), but found that to be impossible. Gainward refused to pass on my bug report and there was no way I could get in touch with nVidia myself.

Personally, I do not want any driver updates at all. I just want everything to work the way it is supposed to. If there are monthly updates to fix bugs over a two year period, without any significant new features being added, then I think an alarm bell should sound somewhere. Or, when nVidia releases a driver that cannot cope with 30 minutes worth of DVD playback (don't worry now, that was a year ago), someone ought to be flogged. Especially when users felt the need to upgrade to that version to fix other issues... That's just messy.

As a software developer, I too am responsible for annoying people with bugs. BUT! My bugs do not cause people to question their system and tricking them into reinstalling everything (somehow many people are still convinced reinstalling the OS will help, because their experience with Win9x is carried over to 2000/XP/Vista). My bugs don't trigger BSODs. Writing kernel mode drivers is a different game altogether. (or should be!)

Well, to most people betas = you are the guinea pig. That may not necessarily be true but there is a good percentage of people who would rather an officially supported release. That's why ATI releases monthly more than anything IMO. They can fix a thing or 2 here and there in that month and always have an update available. It looks like they are actually making progress that way.

SLI has its share of problems but I don't think it necessarily makes a difference either way. Both multi-GPU solutions are very far from perfect even now.

When it comes down to it, buy what's the better deal for you. Say if you can get one much cheaper than the other, the decision is pretty simple. When I was looking for example, the 4870 was much cheaper than the GTX260 before the new revision was even released. Made my choice easy.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: Creig

Originally posted by: Kadence
The GTX260 actually seems like a significantly better value to me, and I've also heard lots of stuff recently about Nvidia driver superiority over ATI. However I already have an HD4850, so it doesn't make sense to go Nvidia since I can crossfire my new card with the 4850.

So - is the HD4870 1GB worth it? My 24" monitor's native resolution is 1920x1200. The main game I might be playing is Oblivion, and possibly Diablo 3 in the future.

If both ATI and Nvidia release a driver at the same time and both contain a bug, ATI could have a fix released in as little as 30 days due to their monthly driver releases. With Nvidia, you could easily be waiting 4 to 6 months for the same fix unless they happen to decide to release a "beta" driver. But this is totally at their whim. If it's important to you but not important to them, then you'll probably be waiting awhile. If you do a search you'll find that most other gamers here prefer ATI's monthly release schedule to Nvidia's 4-6 months.

Your logic is flawed in that ATi doesn't fix all bugs in a month, and uses Hotfixes in the same fashion as NVIDIA uses beta releases to get fixes for new games out the door fast when needed.

A great example of this would be Far Cry 2, that over a month after it's release still has horrible driver issues on ATi cards, and never had issues on NVIDIA cards.

You're also ignoring the fact that AnandTech's graphics editor has told us twice now that he considers the monthly WHQL a marketing gimmick and has flat out stated it should be abolished as he's finding more issues with ATis drivers than NVIDIA's.

So while Joe Forum member might be saying "Hot damn! I'm getting monthly drivers- that has to be better!" the guy who runs the forum Joe is on is telling us the monthly driver releases are likely the cause of the problem!

WHO?

Derek Wilson likes the monthly releases; so do most reviewers i have asked. It is far better to know that a driver is to be expected every month and it is easy to set up your reviews based around a schedule. Nvidia LOOKS sloppy in comparison to AMD - it is an issue of perception; and i think Nvidia falls short with their "whenever we feel like it" betas. However, their CEO apparently likes it that way; Nvidia feels that AMD "wastes" nearly a month getting it to MS and back for certification, while Nvidia just releases it as a beta .. so it is that way. Frankly, ,i'd like AMD to do more Betas [like Nvidia] and Nvidia to commit themselves to regular drivers [like AMD] - but i'd like world peace also.
i think Nvidia is recently more out of touch with gamers as they ais for the pro market and wider GPU computational acceptance in the mass market. So i expect it to get not better for us; i hope i am wrong.

As to FC2, i haven't checked it since the Devs patched it; i got an excellent experience with 4870/1GB by capping the frame-rate to 30 ultimately - and X2 runs it better than GTX280. FC2 is also a AAA title that sold quite a few - whether anyone likes it or not, it is an important game.

As to the OP .. 4870 worth it ? sure .. i paid $300 for 4870/1GB and $380 for my GTX280; But they are not in the same class. The 260 is the 4870's match. Also, you will not be getting the same performance from pairing a 4870/1GB with a 4850/512 as you would with 2 x 4870 - even if you highly OC the 4850 [which you will need to do]. A few games will also now run poorly since your 4870 is limited to 512MB in CF with 4850 [unless you have the 1GB version]

it might be cool to try CF that way; and if you can get a really nice OC on your 4850, you can have a nice setup. A 4870/1GB is approximately equal to a GTX260 - so if the 260 is worth it, the 4870 is also worth it [imo, of course]

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: apoppin



WHO?

Derek Wilson likes the monthly releases; so do most reviewers i have asked. It is far better to know that a driver is to be expected every month and it is easy to set up your reviews based around a schedule. Nvidia LOOKS sloppy in comparison to AMD - it is an issue of perception; and i think Nvidia falls short with their "whenever we feel like it" betas. However, their CEO apparently likes it that way; Nvidia feels that AMD "wastes" nearly a month getting it to MS and back for certification, while Nvidia just releases it as a beta .. so it is that way. Frankly, ,i'd like AMD to do more Betas [like Nvidia] and Nvidia to commit themselves to regular drivers [like AMD] - but i'd like world peace also.
i think Nvidia is recently more out of touch with gamers as they ais for the pro market and wider GPU computational acceptance in the mass market. So i expect it to get not better for us; i hope i am wrong.

Apoppin- Derek said straight out ATi needs to dump the monthly driver release program.

So the trade off for going forward with best-case scenario numbers is this page explaining the problems and a plea to AMD to change their approach to driver development for the good of the consumer.

Maintaining a monthly driver release schedule is detrimental to AMD's ability to release quality drivers. This is not the first or only issue we've seen that could have been solved (or at least noticed) by expanded testing that isn't possible with such tight release deadlines.

Read the rest of the page- Derek asks AMD to dump monthly releases, says he finds more problems with AMD drivers, and says there's no excuse for what is going on with FC2.

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3463&p=6

 

[Wreckage]

Maintaining a monthly driver release schedule is detrimental to AMD's ability to release quality drivers. This is not the first or only issue we've seen that could have been solved (or at least noticed) by expanded testing that isn't possible with such tight release deadlines.

Wow Apop just got served.

I would say that is sig worthy. As it does seem that their monthly driver schedule has not helped them any over NVIDIA's schedule.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Maintaining a monthly driver release schedule is detrimental to AMD's ability to release quality drivers. This is not the first or only issue we've seen that could have been solved (or at least noticed) by expanded testing that isn't possible with such tight release deadlines.

Wow Apop just got served.

I would say that is sig worthy. As it does seem that their monthly driver schedule has not helped them any over NVIDIA's schedule.

The schedule of the drivers is not the issue; it's whether or not they work that counts.

I love how you and your brother Rollo mash down on apoppin about drivers now, and you were all quiet a year ago when NV could not produce a driver for their new 8800GTX cards in Vista. That situation was way way worse than what is going on now with AMD.

Pretty soon Rollo's kid will be old enough to post on here. Too much NV bias. :brokenheart:

 

[Wreckage]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

The schedule of the drivers is not the issue; it's whether or not they work that counts.

Rushing out drivers to meet a marketing schedule and then hotfixing em constantly is the issue.

Hell, why not have a daily driver release or an hourly driver release?

I think the Monthly release shtick is more a marketing ploy than an actual service to the customer. It's clear from recent issues these drivers don't have time to be properly tested and the consumer ends up being an unwilling beta tester.

 

[SSChevy2001]

Originally posted by: nRollo
Read the rest of the page- Derek asks AMD to dump monthly releases, says he finds more problems with AMD drivers, and says there's no excuse for what is going on with FC2.

There is no excuse for what's going on with FC2, but who's to say it's just ATi fault? What has Ubisoft done to correct the problem? What's Ubisoft done to fix widescreen support. Nothing nada.

Really when it comes down to it ATi monthly driver support is fine. The problem is ATi needs to get more GITG titles, that's where Nvidia has a edge.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Originally posted by: SickBeast

The schedule of the drivers is not the issue; it's whether or not they work that counts.

Rushing out drivers to meet a marketing schedule and then hotfixing em constantly is the issue.

Hell, why not have a daily driver release or an hourly driver release?

I think the Monthly release shtick is more a marketing ploy than an actual service to the customer. It's clear from recent issues these drivers don't have time to be properly tested and the consumer ends up being an unwilling beta tester.

Yeah and then you get situations with NV where you can go 3 months or more without a single WHQL driver release, and betas that don't work properly.

The problems I was having in Vista with my G80-based card were not game-related. It was an embarrassment for NV. My card was crashing while moving files around in Windows. I haven't heard of such problems with ATI/AMD drivers in many years.

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Maintaining a monthly driver release schedule is detrimental to AMD's ability to release quality drivers. This is not the first or only issue we've seen that could have been solved (or at least noticed) by expanded testing that isn't possible with such tight release deadlines.

Wow Apop just got served.

I would say that is sig worthy. As it does seem that their monthly driver schedule has not helped them any over NVIDIA's schedule.

The schedule of the drivers is not the issue; it's whether or not they work that counts.

I love how you and your brother Rollo mash down on apoppin about drivers now, and you were all quiet a year ago when NV could not produce a driver for their new 8800GTX cards in Vista. That situation was way way worse than what is going on now with AMD.

Pretty soon Rollo's kid will be old enough to post on here. Too much NV bias. :brokenheart:

I am schooling Rollo Jr in the dark side of the Force and forum ju jitsu....heh

I'm not mashing down on Apoppin, and wouldn't.

Just pointing out that Derek very specifically said ATi needs to address driver issues and that he said the monthly schedule hinders that.

Derek alluded to that in an earlier thread, but Apoppin didn't believe it, I guess because he wasn't as direct as this time.

I don't have anything against Apoppin, we just disagree on this issue.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: nRollo

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Wreckage

Maintaining a monthly driver release schedule is detrimental to AMD's ability to release quality drivers. This is not the first or only issue we've seen that could have been solved (or at least noticed) by expanded testing that isn't possible with such tight release deadlines.

Wow Apop just got served.

I would say that is sig worthy. As it does seem that their monthly driver schedule has not helped them any over NVIDIA's schedule.

The schedule of the drivers is not the issue; it's whether or not they work that counts.

I love how you and your brother Rollo mash down on apoppin about drivers now, and you were all quiet a year ago when NV could not produce a driver for their new 8800GTX cards in Vista. That situation was way way worse than what is going on now with AMD.

Pretty soon Rollo's kid will be old enough to post on here. Too much NV bias. :brokenheart:

I am schooling Rollo Jr in the dark side of the Force and forum ju jitsu....heh

I'm not mashing down on Apoppin, and wouldn't.

Just pointing out that Derek very specifically said ATi needs to address driver issues and that he said the monthly schedule hinders that.

Derek alluded to that in an earlier thread, but Apoppin didn't believe it, I guess because he wasn't as direct as this time.

I don't have anything against Apoppin, we just disagree on this issue.

So you're not denying that Wreckage is indeed your brother?

 

[nRollo]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

I don't have anything against Apoppin, we just disagree on this issue.

So you're not denying that Wreckage is indeed your brother?[/quote]

Don't you think we're heading a bit far off topic?

Presumably people came to this thread to read about 4870 is worth it, and IMO it's the second place choice at this time.