HDCP Fiasco

[Twsmit]

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/ati_nvidia_hdcp_support/

Cliff Notes:

Simply put, none of the AGP or PCI-E graphics cards that you can buy today support HDCP.

 

[SynthDude2001]

I only skimmed the article, but it brings up some points I'd not considered before. I still think the whole HDCP idea is bullsh¡t, but hopefully the whole thing will be sorted out by the time this content hits the market (and I'm ready to upgrade my video card)...

 

[Zebo]

Sounds like a personel problem. I'll be using w2k for another 5 years I bet.

 

[JBT]

Well if its def true those waiting for Dell 2407 for HDCP compliance should just got out an buy 2405s now lol.

 

[n7]

Holy mothereffing sh!t :|

I am so sick of hearing about this crap, because the more i hear, the angrier i get.

 

[touchmyichi]

i find it ironic how all these measures to stop piracy only make us more apt to do it. Trying to fight it is useless anyways, someone will always find a way around it. So instead, give us incentive to buy from you.

Let us own our content, let us use it how we want, don't limit us

 

[touchmyichi]

double post

 

[dev0lution]

I don't buy the Nvidia cop out that they're only a GPU manufacturer and don't actually make the boards. Half the cards on the market are reference designs and only vary in cooling solutions, logos and maybe memory/core clocks. You're telling me that Nvidia suggested to all their partners that they should build boards like the Sony OEM cards and everyone ignored them? Anyone remember HD hardware support on the original 6800s? Pfft..

Screw ATI too. I'm guessing both of them aren't doing much of anything to sell the HDCP hardware today until Vista is final to avoid any last minute changes cancelling out their current solution.

Nice to know Intel's found a way to ensure that PC's can eventually play HD movie & broadcast content AND has found a way to make money off of licensing it.

Guess the transition to Vista's going to be slow, painful and EXPENSIVE. I just may have to get familiar with Linux or OS X....

 

[biostud]

I guess I'll keep watching DVD's for some time. Heck, as long as the HD-DVD/Blu-ray fight is still going on I'll stick to my DVD.

With this problem too, it will be even harder for any of the standards to win. Does HDTV's also need to be HDCP ready? or is that already a standard?

If not, the first media to drop HDCP requirements will win the market quickly.

 

[Paratus]

HDTV's require it too.

So my 2001 Sony XBR will be SOL once HDCP media shows up.


posted via Palm Life Drive

 

[nRollo]

Errr you're angry current video cards don't support all features on an unreleased operating system?

Isn't this the case everytime a new OS is released?

 

[rbV5]

Well this appears to confirm rumors that I had received a couple of weeks ago. Accordingto theinfo I had gotten, the displays themselves are OK if they have the HDCP protection on the digital connection as has been offered for some time now, however none of the cards manufacturered for retail have full support.

Personally, I didn't believe it since I had seen HDCP support on Radeon products for some time (at least since my 8500). I thought I had covered my ass by purchasing a HDCP LCD TV and a pair of X1800 cards for my main PC's.

That part that frosts my ass as well, if this is indeed true, is that it appears that oem cards are being shipped with full support, apparently for the oem Media Center market.

Being a PC video enthusiast is one damn frustration after another.

 

[Paratus]

Not quite. .

Basically after spending 2500 for the Dell 3007 LCD & 1500 for SLI'd 7800 512 GTX's & 300 for a blue ray drive you'll be able to watch HD DVDs in 480P.

So what good is the decoding ability in most GPUs?

posted via Palm Life Drive

 

[xtknight]

Originally posted by: dev0lution
I don't buy the Nvidia cop out that they're only a GPU manufacturer and don't actually make the boards. Half the cards on the market are reference designs and only vary in cooling solutions, logos and maybe memory/core clocks. You're telling me that Nvidia suggested to all their partners that they should build boards like the Sony OEM cards and everyone ignored them? Anyone remember HD hardware support on the original 6800s? Pfft..

The article said NVIDIA had been providing them with HDCP reference designs since May 2005.

 

[Jon1234]

Originally posted by: xtknight

Originally posted by: dev0lution
I don't buy the Nvidia cop out that they're only a GPU manufacturer and don't actually make the boards. Half the cards on the market are reference designs and only vary in cooling solutions, logos and maybe memory/core clocks. You're telling me that Nvidia suggested to all their partners that they should build boards like the Sony OEM cards and everyone ignored them? Anyone remember HD hardware support on the original 6800s? Pfft..

The article said NVIDIA had been providing them with HDCP reference designs since May 2005.

Yet card reviews often mention that boards follow the reference design. It doesn't seem that anyone (nVidia or the board makers) was in a hurry to dispel our misconceptions.

 

[xtknight]

They probably provide them with regular reference designs that omit HDCP as well.

 

[Pocatello]

This sucks. The consumers should revolt. I'm not going to upgrade to Vista for a long while, I've just got windows XP on my PC last year. I hope those greedy, blooksucking Hollywood hippies all get cancer and die.

 

[alpha88]

I wouldn't blame Microsoft/Vista, any more than a DVD player manufacturer for implementing HDCP.

I will, however, NOT buy any HD-DVD/Bluray content that requires HDCP in order for my to watch it on my 2405FPW.

 

[sodcha0s]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Sounds like a personel problem. I'll be using w2k for another 5 years I bet.

So, for the next 5 years you won't be able to view HD content on your PC. That's the only relevance here. And that suits me fine, because I really have no interest in sitting in front of my computer to watch a movie. Anyway, like others have said until this whole mess gets sorted out, and the prices on the required hardware come down to earth I'll stick to my DVD's.

 

[kylebisme]

Hurray for old and absurdly incomplete news rambled out in a reactionary article. HDCP protected content needs a secure path all the way from the drive to the display to operate at full quality, and that takes a lot more than just HDCP support on the video card. Here is an article from last year which goes into much more detail on the issue:

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1871&page=1

If you want to blame anyone, blame the MPAA and RIAA for building such convoluted schemes against duplication which wind up being bypassed by pirates yet continually inconvenience legitimate users. The video card makers aren't to blame here though, they will sell us compliant cards when there are complaint drives, motherboards, and OS to test the cards on and for use them with. As long as people buy HDCP content, us computer users are going to have to jump though a lot of hoops if we want to play it.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Hurray for old and absurdly incomplete news rambled out in a reactionary article. HDCP protected content needs a secure path all the way from the drive to the display to operate at full quality, and that takes a lot more than just HDCP support on the video card. Here is an article from last year which goes into much more detail on the issue:

http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1871&page=1

If you want to blame anyone, blame the MPAA and RIAA for building such convoluted schemes against duplication which wind up being bypassed by pirates yet continually inconvenience legitimate users. The video card makers aren't to blame here though, they will sell us compliant cards when there are complaint drives, motherboards, and OS to test the cards on and for use them with. As long as people buy HDCP content, us computer users are going to have to jump though a lot of hoops if we want to play it.

How is the consumer supposed to know when the Vendor claims HDCP compliance with their video cards and has for sometime?

Avivo? Video and Display Platform
High performance programmable video processor
Accelerated MPEG-2, MPEG-4, DivX, WMV9, VC-1, and H.264 decoding and transcoding
DXVA support
De-blocking and noise reduction filtering
Motion compensation, IDCT, DCT and color space conversion
Vector adaptive per-pixel de-interlacing
3:2 pulldown (frame rate conversion)
Seamless integration of pixel shaders with video in real time
HDR tone mapping acceleration
Maps any input format to 10 bit per channel output
Flexible display support
Dual integrated dual-link DVI transmitters
DVI 1.0 compliant / HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready
Dual integrated 10 bit per channel 400 MHz DACs
16 bit per channel floating point HDR and 10 bit per channel DVI output
Programmable piecewise linear gamma correction, color correction, and color space conversion (10 bits per color)
Complete, independent color controls and video overlays for each display
High quality pre- and post-scaling engines, with underscan support for all outputs
Content-adaptive de-flicker filtering for interlaced displays
Xilleon? TV encoder for high quality analog output
YPrPb component output for direct drive of HDTV displays
Spatial/temporal dithering enables 10-bit color quality on 8-bit and 6-bit displays
Fast, glitch-free mode switching
VGA mode support on all outputs
Drive two displays simultaneously with independent resolutions and refresh rates
Compatible with ATI TV/Video encoder products, including Theater 550

At least that seems to suggest that the card is HDCP compliant. Is the consumer supposed to figure that to mean that "well its ready if the manufacturer supplies it with the actual chip"?

Meanwhile, OEMs appear to be recieving fully supported cards. Why can they get fully supported cards if we'll get them when everything else is ready? Doesn't sound to me like they are running the risk of having obsolete hardware when Vista is ready if they are getting the hardware now. Sounds alot more like an attempt to remove the enthusiast from building their own media center PC with HD-DVD support.

Sure the MPAA and RIAA are easy targets, but Vendor's muddled feature support claims almost seem to try and capitalize on the confusion. I am not going to be easily appeased that they can make marketing claims for compliance, send out retail boards minus the important required components while at the same time be sending out OEM products with the required components because they damn well know those retail parts are not going to work.

Damn right I'll blame the vendors, and once again kick my own ass for thinking I'm good untill I've seen it for myself.

 

[kylebisme]

Note they only present that the "Dual integrated dual-link DVI transmitters" are "HDMI interoperable and HDCP ready", which I'm sure is quite true regardless of how little relevance that plays in the card as a whole's ability to support HDCP content. So yeah that is pretty deceptive advertising considering the interpretation of the average consumer, but I doubt it is anything less than a fact.

And again, it takes a lot more than a complaint card to create a protected invoroment for HDCP playback. I'll bet Sony just desided to get a head start building their cards, but I wouldn't be supprized if their motherboards don't yet, and obviously they don't have the drives and OS to complete the package anyway.

 

[rbV5]

Here are some interesting snips from the AVIVO whitepaper: LINK

(page2)

Avivo is ATI?s next-generation video and display platform that is targeted specifically at
delivering the highest quality and performance for this growth in media usage. Avivo has a
number of technologies that provide new video experiences, and numerous capabilities
representing a quantum leap in quality tailored to the best experience for all display needs.
Some of the key capabilities delivered by Avivo are:
? The Media PC experience: tuner-enabled PCs entering the living room and becoming
the premier consumer electronics device for TV and PVR (personal video recorder)
functionality
? The Digital TV revolution: Digital, over-the-air broadcasting is taking hold worldwide.
The ability to receive and playback these signals will be central to future media PCs
? HD-Disc playback: Next-generation blue-laser optical discs such as Blu-ray and HDDVD
are on the horizon. Avivo enables their use on the PC with advanced decoding
capabilities
? Digital Photography and Digital Imaging: with digital imaging becoming an integral
part of people?s professional and personal lives, it becomes important to deliver a
flexible, flawless experience to even the most demanding user

(page11)

Ultimate Connectivity
In addition to superlative quality on the display pipelines, the Avivo Display Engine features
unique connectivity capabilities to enable any PC usage that can be envisaged:
? True consumer electronics-grade TV output, via the consumer-proven Xilleon TV
encoder (Xilleon is the name of ATI?s Digital Television line of products)
? VGA DACs use the 10 bits of data provided by the pipeline and output it directly,
making any existing CRT a 10-bit device.
? HDMI support for connecting to a digital TV, which combines both the video image and
audio into a single connection
? HDCP capability to enable the viewing of protected content
? Two dual-link DVI capability for support of high-resolution displays (over 1920x1200
resolutions on LCD displays)
? Unique ability to support high-bit-depth displays (10 or 16 bits per color)

They specifically use Blu-ray and HD-DVD to tout the HDCP compliance in the first quote, and state its purpose for allowing protected content viewing in the second the way I read it.

 

[rbV5]

And again, it takes a lot more than a complaint card to create a protected invoroment for HDCP playback. I'll bet Sony just desided to get a head start building their cards, but I wouldn't be supprized if their motherboards don't yet, and obviously they don't have the drives and OS to complete the package anyway.

Maybe not, but my motherboard and drives don't claim HDCP compliance if there are requirements on those components. I wouldn't speculate, but I doubt OEMs are getting shipments for the components to sit out back awaiting the rest of the components.

I should know better, but they shouldn't be making claims of support that simply aren't available on retail boards (if this is all correct btw)

 

[xtknight]

I guess "HDCP Ready" doesn't necessarily mean it actually implements HDCP, just that it's possible for the design to accomdate it. Quite lame and borderline false advertising there.

All you need to support HDCP is a fully HDCP compliant graphics card and monitor from what I can tell but maybe the motherboards need to be infested with more useless EFI crap.

Originally posted by: Justin343563611
They should just kill HDCP, it's so pointless.

It is not going to stop pirates period, just make it harder for everybody to watch content. It doesn't matter if it's hardware protection, they'll find a practical way around it. Maybe it'll stop byte-for-byte 1:1 coming but who really cares? People have been watching moves on VHS for years and I'm sure even with some kind of analog copying it'll be even higher quality looking than VHS. To be honest all it's doing is spurring on pirates and challenging them. Boy, now I realize just paying $15 for a DVD is nothing compared to having to buy all this HDCP-compliant crap.

The only way to completely protect the material is to modify our eyes with lasers to accept encoded signals. Doubt that's possible anyway.

Phew, lots of expletives there.