Naw dawg. Who said anything about rich? However if you can't afford something you do without...if that's food then you die. You don't get buried you get thrown in the trash.
It's called being real. It's sad, but if one wants socialism or communism they need to get the fuck out of America. We are a pay to play nation, you change that then everyone is poor.
Do you know what ROI is even?
OK, great. Let's do away with SS and Medicare. While we're at it, let's tear up all the roads, knock down all the fire stations, and disband the police. If you want those services, you should be able to provide your own.
Your world is a sad little place.
I do, but apparently you completely fail to understand the concept of managed risk, when it comes to pooling resources.
naw again, probably sound great on one of those infomercial spots though...See I pay into SS and Medicare since I have had jobs even prior to being able to drive. I own a home and this thing called millage shows I pay for my fire station and police (that always seem to be at the shitty rental units down the road).
My world is happy...it'd be a lot happier knowing that those immigrants and gang bangers living 5+ to a home or apartment were sent via trebuchet off into the atlantic.
Ahh pooling resources *cough cough* communism/socialism. Let me ask you something (or would it be better as "ax ya somethin'...") what resources are pooled from those not working?
I am not talking our masses of college educated layoffs, I am talking about those that have never held steady jobs, do drugs/keep getting busted, and collecting that gov'ment cheese brick each month.
Time to cut off the dead limbs. Are you one of them?
I have only done the major cities? Strangely I don't recall that but thanks for filling in my memory.Well doing the 'major' cities of the world is hardly world travel outside of just seeing New York city with just a different facade.
However, even in the islands if you do the tourist trek everyone is going to want proper currency, but you may even see Mickey Mouse along the way....yay!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yep. Everyone was having their coverage dropped by their employer before this bill.
I won't argue with that, but excluding your gang bangers and illegals, there is no reason why someone who holds down a job and pays their bills should be denied basic care, solely on the reasoning that they earn shit wages. Or do you think that everyone who is poor is that way due to their own actions? Not everyone can earn six figures a year - if that were the case those who did would be considered "poor".
I'm all for providing care for those who need it, but the system *needs* to have limits somewhere. That doesn't mean that we just leave people to die in the streets.
If you define "dead limb" as someone who can't pay their own way, I suppose maybe I am. I've racked up at least half a million dollars worth of medical bills in my lifetime due to circumstances beyond my control, and yet I earn $50k/yr. The odds of me paying off those bills by myself are minuscule, thank gawd I have insurance.
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The original democratic bill would have made these outrageous price increases illegal, but yah hooray the republirats forced the dems to drop the private insurance options too.
Well Nick, now you can thanks the republirats for you being gouged on health insurance.
Enjoy it Nick, you earned it.
Here's the deal. 90% of those we'd help have / had no intentions of gaining legal employment. They can play hoodrat and make some dough then get free cheese and food stamps.
Someone has got to take the bullet and it can't be the taxpayers anymore.
I started buying insurance when I was 18. I have been covered by my companies or self-insured since. It sucked having to send that cash in, but I am not one to go get hit by a bus and say "oh I am a poor baby please gimme money to help fix my legs".
How did you rack up a half million dollars with insurance or are you just itemizing what has been covered in your life?
If you have been employed and insured then that's not getting a free ride.
If you haven't been working, crap out 3+ welfare babies, and been arrested for dope more than once, you are getting a free ride.
At least the dems had a comprehensive bill to address all the problems but the republican's prevented its passage. So we get a watered down bill that does little.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------You know the Republicans didn't stop anything, right? With the numbers the Dems had in the Senate and House the Republicans were powerless to stop them. Blaiming Republicans is fucking hilarious.
Nice try though
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No Nick, that argument will not fly, not when all but like two GOP members filibustered the bill and gained a handful of blue dogs democrats.
Its still boils down to.
90% of democrats wiling to vote for real health care reform in the public interest.
and
less than 5% of the GOP willing to vote in the public interests.
And even as the GOP makes world record use of the filibuster, it means the dems need 60 full votes to pass anything in the US Senate. It means the GOP has a tyranny of the minority.
And that leaves you Nick, as a member of the general public stuck paying a big insurance bill increase you can thank the GOP for.
Do you have any links to back up your assumptions? From what I've read the vast majority of people who don't have insurance fall into one of three categories:
1. Those who genuinely can't afford it, either due to circumstances beyond their control, or because they don't earn enough to be able to buy it, and their employers don't provide any coverage.
2. Those who believe health insurance is worthless because they're perfectly healthy *now*, ignoring the fact that they will most likely need medical care at some point. When those people get sick, we *all* pay more when their now broke asses can't afford to "self-insure" to pay off five figure medical bills.
3. Illegals who use the ER as their own personal doctor, and expect everything handed to them for free.
Of those, UHC would solve the first two. The third can be eliminated by enforcing existing immigration laws, and by going after companies who hire illegals.
As for my medical bills, I was estimating the total cost paid for by my insurance carriers. By any measure I've definitely used more resources than I've paid into the system. Guess that makes me a deadbeat.
Alkemist, you are somewhat clueless about hospitals and what they are obligated to do. Lets say your favorite gang banger gets stabbed in a drug deal gone wrong. So de cops haul him to the nearest general hospital and they have to give the smuck some type of treatment, insurance or no insurance. Note, that uninsured dude is not going to pay his bill because he has no money, the hospital can't sue his ass because he has no money, so they simply write off the bill. And pass that cost on to those that can pay.
Rinse and repeat for welfare Moms, the poor who have no insurance, people who work for employers who offer no insurance coverage, and maybe you will get a clue why run away health care costs come about.
At least the dems had a comprehensive bill to address all the problems but the republican's prevented its passage. So we get a watered down bill that does little.
The other thing is that private health care insurance companies would not be able to continue their rip offs if a decent bill was actually passed, but meanwhile while the bill
was being debated they postponed rate increases. Now that we have a nothing bill
and private health insurance are out of the woods, all their rate increases they postponed are coming back tripled in one single year.
Someone has to pay for all that lobbying money they gave to the GOP to save their butt and preserve their inalienable right to be parasites and rip off artists. Of course they gave to bluedog dems too so they have to raise their rates even more.
wow you are out of touch on this.
I really can't argue further with someone that is following our masses don't make up free health care already when they choose no income.
Translation: I don't have any rebuttal to your argument so I'm just going to post nonsense.
My brain is still trying to parse your sentence, can you make your point a bit clearer?
Most that don't work and are citizens or not can go to free clinics in major cities.
Those that lose their job cannot.
I don't think you have insurance now and your $50k/year is based on contract work.
IMHO I say fuck them. Put them back on the street and let them die off.
The problem lies in a taxpayer getting robbed and showing up with no ID and unconscious.
I have personally heard twice now about ethnic people explaining how you can show up in a free clinic...just speak your native language and don't understand any english. Don't bring any ID. You will get anything you ask for.
Well, the insurance companies are jacking their rates to cover for when they will be forced to accept everyone.
I am self employed on an Aetna plan. My renewal increase this year was 43%. That is an increase of over $500 a month.
I scaled down my coverage and got "affordable" for another year, but I fully expect a rate increase mid term, and another 30 to 40% at next years renewal. at which point I will likely drop it for catastrophic coverage only. But I will be forced to pay into the system to buy other people Health insurance... Very nice.
Obama, Reid and Pelosi promised Health Insurance, not Affordable Insurance.
Their Health Care "Tax" (yes they are in court defending the Uninsured fines as a Tax) is expected to raise over 4 Billion Dollars a year. That sound awful high of a collection rate when Everyone is supposed to have insurance and not have to pay the Tax. Ask yourself, why would the Government count on revenue from the Penalty when the plan that proposed was supposed to eliminate the non-insured?
Smoke and Mirrors... Mandating health insurance purchases does not allow people that cannot afford it the ability to buy it.
I understand that perfectly. Your argument seems to be that we should not have UHC because some people will take advantage of the system. Tough luck, there will always be *someone* who games the system. The problem we have now is the ones who do cost the rest of us tons of money. With a proper UHC system in place, we can regulate care so that it can't be used frivolously.
You keep harping on the fact that there's this large evil bloc of citizens who do nothing but leech off the government teat, but you have yet to provide proof beyond this forum.
I keep trying to explain that these issues can be dealt with, but you continue to deflect. Would you care to explain why UHC would not help the situation? (Note that I did not say "solve", because while no solution is perfect, anything is better that what we have now.)
Er... OK. I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. But FYI, I've been on salary with the same employer for 15 years, and I expect to retire from this job.
No...you again are missing the point because you really don't understand the argument. Anyone that cannot afford healthcare can get it. The problem is they don't want to lower their standard of living to do so and want 'extras', not just basic care.
I don't believe in welfare at all. However in this day and age people are too proud and everyone thinks they are a jetsetter.
I love these arguments...you prove it to me otherwise then. Since you want facts you must have your own right?
Take a look at medicaid and how much of it takes place in Miami. It's about 50% of all claims. Problem is most aren't documented people so alot of sharing goes on.
Go take a look at your local free clinics (you do get out right), go see who is in line and then go look at the parking lots. "Oh look dubs on a hummer"
Listen to those bitching about wanting UHC and ask them what they make / pay for insurance currently. They want the coverage and want to loose the $200-500 a month that comes out of their paychecks.
The government wants this because it's a fucking ton of cash to have. They need the cash flow right now and this is their answer.
What's funny is people cry and complain about the VA hospitals (veterans) yet this is what the people are going to get. It's usually cheaper to amputate than save the leg...there are policies out there like that now, most don't choose them...with UHC it's all going to be what's the most economic / safe methods not what the patient wants or what the best treatment would be. There is no way around that it's going to be the lowest cost possible in order to get to the most people possible.
And then you will have the actuaries computed health treatment cost over livability/mortality.
Where is your explainations? How is UHC going to be better than what you have now? Are you really making $50k and insured or are you out of work and not? You don't sound like someone that has insurance already if you are talking UHC is going to be better unless you have a really crappy policy.
At retirement you should be able to qualify for insurance unless your income is still high. However, not everyone is entitled to retire....at $50k after 15 years you may not be able too. Do you have savings? Who is going to support you?
Read AnnonUSA's post further up in this thread. How exactly is a $500/mo increase affordable? Do you have that much room in your budget for an *extra* $500/mo? And as for lowering standards of living, yeah, that's always the solution. We should all go without food and shelter so we can afford to pay for healthcare. How about instead we look into ways to *reduce costs*, so that healthcare isn't so fucking expensive? Nah, that'd never work.
Yet again, you are taking anecdotal local evidence and extrapolating out to the entire population. You want facts? OK, have a look at these statistics on welfare:
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfareblack.htm
and these on Medicaid (PDF):
http://www.kff.org/medicaid/upload/Key Medicare and Medicaid Statistics.pdf
And again, I've already stated that enforcing our existing immigration laws and going after employers who hire illegals would go a long way towards reducing the number of illegals who are provided free care.
The government is responding to the will of their constituents, the corporations. Rather than sit down and have a frank, intelligent discussion about what could and could not be done in regards to health care, as usual the vocal fringes took over and it became a game of who can yell the loudest. "Death panels" are a fine example of this. So instead of a workable UHC solution the special interests take over and we get this bastardized system. Perhaps if we spent less time arguing about which side of the coin is "right" and more time demanding accountability from our leaders, we wouldn't have so many issues.
Just like the insurance companies do now. If you don't think private corporations are interested in anything but generating profits, you are sadly mistaken.
I've already laid out a few points in previous posts as to why UHC might benefit the population, if you can't be bothered to read them, it's not my problem.
As to my situation, UHC would benefit me greatly because it's a safety net. As it stands right now I cannot afford to be without insurance *at all*, so I am essentially chained to my job as my employer provides the coverage I would not be able to obtain on my own. Without gainful employment I'd be completely screwed.
Again, I fail to see how this is relevant, but I won't have any financial issues, barring a total economic meltdown. I will be debt free by the time I hit 40 (car, house, student loans), which is about 7 years from now. I am incredibly fortunate to have been taught to save early, so by the time I retire I won't have anything to worry about. Many others do not have the same luxury.
I am well aware of what hospitals have to do and I don't agree with it.
IMHO I say fuck them. Put them back on the street and let them die off.
The problem lies in a taxpayer getting robbed and showing up with no ID and unconscious.
That's really a minor part of this which I guess you don't acknowledge.
I have personally heard twice now about ethnic people explaining how you can show up in a free clinic...just speak your native language and don't understand any english. Don't bring any ID. You will get anything you ask for.