What happens if somehow, someway, you are brought to the hospital unconscious and dying with no form of ID whatsoever, no one knows you and no proof of insurance. Should they just throw ya out in the street to die?
I'd need details on that: who is being insured, etc...sounds like they have a health history issue and/or possibly smokers. Also I find it hard to believe that is his only option. Regardless it seems as tough as it was he is affording it. That's the key thing in this, the entitlement deal. In my early 20's I was paying my own health insurance while my buddies just banked that into cars, chicks or drinks. By my mid 20's I was able to buy a really nice home in a pretty exclusive area. My parent's helped me a bit growing up with gas and my car insurance, but in return I sometimes worked 3 jobs and saved my money. I was able to go to college for 5 years (3 at a local community college and 2 at University of Florida) with only about $7000 in loans. My parents couldn't help me with college at the time and since financial aid looks at previous income I couldn't qualify for any.
I don't feel health insurance is a right. Anyone on death's door will be treated at a hospital and stabilized. I think that is more than fair. We are not a communistic nor socialistic nation...
There are ways to reduce costs of health care. Flexible spending plans are one. I am part of a health fund with my employer. We each put up $1500 for the year which you can use for deductable and copays. It rolls over if you don't use it. That gives us a cheaper premium on the back end. It's also an open network so you can shop doctors. Some negotiate for a higher rate, some lower.
Your first link is hardly related to this conversation. It's about the myth that only blacks are on welfare. I don't think anyone stated this, I certainly did not. What I said above is those that can't AFFORD health insurance can get health care.
Also that Keiser pdf is just anecodatal as well. It's no different than anyone just throwing up the numbers. Why not go directly to Medicare and Medicaid for the statistics.
Anyway its showing about 50% of our nation already receiving one or the other and about 30% recieving both. What this doesn't show is (you can look up Miami's rates) is for every one person with these plans there is a high probability that they are caring for others under it...it doesn't show how those with no coverage can also bribe to get it. This is rampant in S. Florida with even our Driver's License places taking thousands of dollars from illegals in return for a full government issued ID/DL. It sucks. 10 people were arrested in Delray Beach, Florida this year for this. It was happening right under everyone's nose.
Well you are going to have a 'death panel' with any national program. Whether it's above the board or hidden. Each person is a number and value into the collective.
I don't want this for myself. Especially if they mandate things like organ donorship is required. Certain parts need to be taken pre-mortem. Plus come in tramatized and match some billionaire's kids liver need and you just may have been terminal. No thanks, my family donates blood for each other for surgery and a couple of us have done the gift of life deal.
Well profits are key. However, I believe now your real reasons have come out. You are anti big-business, the evil corporations...your whole spiel has been a bit biased though so it's no surprise. The corporation I work for still gives back a lot. We run our own insurance plan and Aetna oversees the claims. It's problematic at times because our company covers non-standard Aetna procedures (yeah, technically me healthy contributes to their profit though).
The thing is I have a choice. I don't have to take my company plan. There are golden plans out there for a couple grand a month....chump change to the wealthy, but they can get their teeth cleaned every month if they want.
Still even now some doctors don't accept any insurance. I am sure their are private hospitals that do this as well. Those doctors here have full waiting rooms still. I have chosen to go to one even though I could have paid a ton less with my insurance because they were truly that good and I knew I'd be on my way to getting better fastest.
Once you nationalize a plan, you now cater to the lowest denominator. You also have to make tougher decisions hence how "death panel" comes up.
Why do you think I just don't disagree? You think I have ignored what you believe? The thing is you are looking at this from your own situation, not the masses.
Safety nets are not what our nation was built on. Just read good old Ben Franklin on fear.
Why do you think without employment you wouldn't qualify for the existing plans or the free clinics? Pride?
So you are all of 33 years old and talking about retiring soon?
You are in your prime financial years yet wasted them working for the same company since you were 18? You are making only $50k. Had you jumped ship a couple times you should have been way above that. If you have saved for 15 years you should be ok if you did lose your job now.
My bet is you are planning on starting to save tomorrow like most and then when tomorrow comes today want someone else to hand them a livlihood.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No Nick, that argument will not fly, not when all but like two GOP members filibustered the bill and gained a handful of blue dogs democrats.
Its still boils down to.
90% of democrats wiling to vote for real health care reform in the public interest.
and
less than 5% of the GOP willing to vote in the public interests.
And even as the GOP makes world record use of the filibuster, it means the dems need 60 full votes to pass anything in the US Senate. It means the GOP has a tyranny of the minority.
And that leaves you Nick, as a member of the general public stuck paying a big insurance bill increase you can thank the GOP for.
What happens if somehow, someway, you are brought to the hospital unconscious and dying with no form of ID whatsoever, no one knows you and no proof of insurance. Should they just throw ya out in the street to die?
Here again, you make assumptions about posters without bothering to inquire as to the details. Why don't you ask AnnonUSA to clarify the details?
And again, your bias is showing. You've already stated that you don't believe in welfare, at all. In your world no one ever experiences sudden job loss, or a catastrophic health issue. We all know exactly when we're going to get sick, and every condition is easily curable. No one should ever have to depend on the welfare of the government for anything. Out here in the real world, things don't work like that.
The primary statistic quoted there was that the majority of people who go on welfare do not stay on it for many years, so your argument that all welfare recipients are losers and leeches on society loses a bit of strength.
I'm not arguing that there are issues, but it's quite clear that private industry cannot solve all of our problems. If it did, you wouldn't have anything to complain about.
And you think that your private insurer will somehow be any different? Again, they're in business for the money, if you're not a profitable customer you're out of luck.
You seriously think the government would declare someone terminal so their organs could be donated?
I'll admit that I am biased in favor of UHC, because I believe it's the best solution. Private industry has already shown that it cannot provide for everyone, but it is in the nation's best interest to provide basic care to all, regardless of means. If private industry and charity cannot do this, the government needs to step in.
That's great for you, but what about Joe Sixpack whose employer doesn't offer coverage, or whose insurance plans are too expensive for someone on a $20k/yr salary? $500/mo for family coverage with income like that is quite a stretch.
While this may be the case, I certainly haven't heard of any complaints about healthcare from my family in the UK or friends in Australia. Besides, who says we have to nationalize the entire system? I'd prefer a system like Australia's, where basic care is covered for everyone, but if you can afford it there are several private insurance plans available.
Our nation may not have been built on the idea of safety nets, but it's in the best interest of the nation to afford our citizens basic care.
My specific medical condition cannot be treated at a free clinic. It requires brain surgery, which at year 2000 rates (the last time I had surgery to fix it) meant $30k worth of treatment for each one, and I typically have two or three before the issue is resolved.
The best I could do would be to get onto a state catastrophic health plan (subsidized by your tax dollars), which would be more expensive that what I'm paying now, but not overly so ($387/mo for a plan with a $2500 deductible).
I said nothing about retiring soon, only that I expect to be able retire from the same employer. This has been the norm rather than the exception for where I work (private University). Many of my coworkers have been there longer than I have, some even longer than I've been alive. Again, I am incredibly fortunate to be in this position, but most people aren't.
There is more to life than making as much money as you can, as quick as you can. I have an uber-secure job working with some fantastic people, and I get to play with lots of cool technology to boot. Why on earth would I ever want to give that up? Plus the cost of living here is low, so my "measly" $50k goes quite far.
Here you go with the assumptions again. As is typical for this forum, you can't come up with a decent rebuttal so you attack the poster instead.
You are the one bringing him up son. I already know the 'details'.
I believe you pay in you get out. What I said was most on welfare don't/haven't paid in.
IMHO 15 years in a company and making only $50k you haven't really paid in much, what do you do for a living? I am not saying $50k is bad, just that's a big time sink for that carrot on the stick.
However you have no right to be cured/etc. Life sucks at times.
lol.
dude you are the complainer here. I am not. I like the system. Pay as you go. It sucks at times yes, just like life can.
BIG BUSINESS IS THE DEBIL!!@!@
Nope not the 'government', but like those working for it and issuing full fledged driver's licenses you can bet it will happen if the money is right. Do you even realize this is the same argument you are debating above?
WTF? Private industry shouldn't have to provide for everyone.
If you have a family on 20k/yr that's your own fucking fault. You'd qualify for major tax breaks and health care at that level. Are you trolling now or just have no fucking understanding of your debate?
Why not move there and be with your family then? You are only making $50k/yr here and in your 30's. You should just move.
I am guessing like all the above it's fear driving you. Fear of change. Fear of loss.
why? would we die off if those that can't afford health care did? I don't think so.
Like I said.. you are talking self-salvation. You need to move to another country that believes in that. Take the benefits of American living hit and accept your genetic faults.
So less than an average car payment...ohhhhh big money. Let's change the whole system to just help me.
wow...ok. You sounded like in you post above you were ready to retire. You are 33. Retirement should'nt be in your vocabulary yet. Savings should.
Like I said...you are feeling entitled. Health care is not a right. You think it should be so you can just screw around in life.
Do you have specific statistics on the number of people on welfare who have never had a job?
I work in IT as a Systems Administrator, and the figure I quoted does not include benefits. With those the amount I make is substantially higher.
Sure, life sucks. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't show some common decency toward our fellow man, regardless of his means.
Such a well-reasoned rebuttal. Congratulations.
I only brought up his post because you conveniently ignored it, perhaps because his experience doesn't quite fit in with your worldview.
I'll believe it when I see it. Can you can provide similar statistics of such occurrences in countries that provide government healthcare?
Private industry can do whatever it wants (which is whatever is the most profitable), but it should be the government's job to ensure the well being of its citizens, which includes basic healthcare. Government already provides education, infrastructure, police/fire protection, and safety, health, and clean air regulations, so why shouldn't basic healthcare be included in that?
I was just throwing out numbers, I admit that was a bit of a stretch. But when you're talking about a $500/mo increase for family coverage (as stated earlier), then it gets more believable.
Believe me, I have considered it. I could easily renounce my US citizenship and go live in the UK, but I happen to like it here. I'd rather do what I can to change my country than ignore the problem.
As for fear of change, it sounds like you suffer from that as well, given that you don't like the idea of UHC.
For one thing, we'd have to import more labor to fill the low-level jobs that don't pay worth crap. There will always be a subset of society that needs some form of help, and I don't see why we can't provide a safety net.
I just quoted one example, the tables are available online (PDF). The rates get much higher as you age, and at a lower deductible. And besides, you've ignored the fact that those rates are subsidized by your tax dollars, so that makes those on a state plan some of your deadbeats.
I disagree, saving for retirement should be a goal early on, so compound interest can be more effective. But that's beyond the scope of this thread.
More insults. How charming.
You know the Republicans didn't stop anything, right? With the numbers the Dems had in the Senate and House the Republicans were powerless to stop them. Blaiming Republicans is fucking hilarious.
Nice try though
I have no idea where EK came up with, "The Dems states from day 0 that they did not want/need Republican input into the bill."
A lot of things that have gone into affect have caused premiums to rise. The 26 year old "child" provision being one of them. And as noted in the article, insurance companies know what's coming so they need to raise as much capital now to weather the obamacare nightmare once it's in full swing.
Hence, premium increases.
You need to get out of your strange bizzaro world where everything is the Republicans fault.
It seems clear to me that the Dems could have passed the public option if they had the guts but failed to do so. Why? Because they have their hands out begging for re-election donations just like the Republicans.... and every other politician no matter what "party".
Ask yourself, why do they spend millions and millions of dollars for jobs that pay less then $200,000/year??
Alkemist, you are somewhat clueless about hospitals and what they are obligated to do. Lets say your favorite gang banger gets stabbed in a drug deal gone wrong. So de cops haul him to the nearest general hospital and they have to give the smuck some type of treatment, insurance or no insurance. Note, that uninsured dude is not going to pay his bill because he has no money, the hospital can't sue his ass because he has no money, so they simply write off the bill. And pass that cost on to those that can pay.
Rinse and repeat for welfare Moms, the poor who have no insurance, people who work for employers who offer no insurance coverage, and maybe you will get a clue why run away health care costs come about.
At least the dems had a comprehensive bill to address all the problems but the republican's prevented its passage. So we get a watered down bill that does little.
The other thing is that private health care insurance companies would not be able to continue their rip offs if a decent bill was actually passed, but meanwhile while the bill
was being debated they postponed rate increases. Now that we have a nothing bill
and private health insurance are out of the woods, all their rate increases they postponed are coming back tripled in one single year.
Someone has to pay for all that lobbying money they gave to the GOP to save their butt and preserve their inalienable right to be parasites and rip off artists. Of course they gave to bluedog dems too so they have to raise their rates even more.