Healthcare for Illegal Immigrants

[fuzzybabybunny]

So I'm going to be doing a debate in class about healthcare for illegal immigrants. I'm the affirmative, which means I'm arguing for change of some kind to our current policies. Someone else is doing the negative, which means they are arguing for no change (stay with the status quo). I want some ideas on how to counter the negative and arguments for the affirmative.

Currently the US does not offer health care to illegals. You need a SSN and a picture ID to get health care, so illegals are disqualified. However, it is very easy for illegals to fake an ID and to give out a random SSN. I'm arguing that the US needs to make it harder for illegals to cheat the system, because right now it's too easy.

1. Health care for illegals means they get health care while not giving anything back in the form of taxes. So they are almost a pure cost on the system.

2. There are cases where illegals have actually "cut in line" in front of legal residents for things like organ donations?

3. Any other points you can think of?

Obviously it gets sticky when you throw ethics into the mix. The Hippocratic Oath would be put to the test when denying health care to another human being based on the illegality of his citizenship. To what extent do we deny health care? Do we go to the extreme and even deny emergency care? They are still human beings.

How do I combat these points?

 

[maddogchen]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
So I'm going to be doing a debate in class about healthcare for illegal immigrants. I'm the affirmative, which means I'm arguing for change of some kind to our current policies. Someone else is doing the negative, which means they are arguing for no change (stay with the status quo). I want some ideas on how to counter the negative and arguments for the affirmative.

Currently the US does not offer health care to illegals. You need a SSN and a picture ID to get health care, so illegals are disqualified. However, it is very easy for illegals to fake an ID and to give out a random SSN. I'm arguing that the US needs to make it harder for illegals to cheat the system, because right now it's too easy.

wait you are arguing for healthcare for illegals but want the US to make it harder for illegals to cheat the system? huh?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Originally posted by: maddogchen

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
So I'm going to be doing a debate in class about healthcare for illegal immigrants. I'm the affirmative, which means I'm arguing for change of some kind to our current policies. Someone else is doing the negative, which means they are arguing for no change (stay with the status quo). I want some ideas on how to counter the negative and arguments for the affirmative.

Currently the US does not offer health care to illegals. You need a SSN and a picture ID to get health care, so illegals are disqualified. However, it is very easy for illegals to fake an ID and to give out a random SSN. I'm arguing that the US needs to make it harder for illegals to cheat the system, because right now it's too easy.

wait you are arguing for healthcare for illegals but want the US to make it harder for illegals to cheat the system? huh?

No, the affirmative simply means that there needs to be SOME kind of change. That's it. The change can be tougher laws or softer laws. It can be whatever. The negative is simply arguing for no change at all. Basically just sit there.

The topic is "the US should make it harder for illegals to get health care."

The affirmative (me), is arguing for this change.
The negative (other person), is saying we should just stay the way we are currently.

 

[ElFenix]

medical care in what sense? any hospital that accepts public funds is required by EMTALA to stabilize anyone who comes in, illegal or not. any illegal immigrant may pay cash. they may purchase insurance policies. though the last two are unlikely, there are no legal barriers involved with the former and i don't believe there are any legal barriers to the latter.

 

[Vic]

ElFenix is right. No one in need of care can be denied care in the US.

Illegals often do pay taxes, if they're working with a fake SSN as they often do.

I think we should make it easier for these people to become citizens.

The problem IMO with the we-should-do-more-for-illegals reasoning, like health care and drivers licenses, is that it would be essentially creating 2 tiers of citizenship. We don't want to create a permanent subclass.

 

[Jaskalas]

On the merits of civility, no one living in this nation should have second class citizenship. Holding such a status would only incur violence and riots for equal rights which should be the rights of everyone. Something we cannot disagree on if we are to uphold our constitution.

Therefore we need to enforce the border or take harsh/decisive measures against foreign populations (in the millions) on our soil. Such things could include deportation, concentration, jail. You name it. At this point, I?m rather sure our government divided by party will never accept a real solution to this problem other than flat out amnesty for anyone in the world who manages to reach our soil.

We do not have the will to stop the flood. So we might as well grab some burritos.

 

[conehead433]

Make it nearly impossible for them to get jobs unless they have the proper visas. Then they'll go back where they came from. This is the only solution to lowering health care costs for illegals.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: conehead433
Make it nearly impossible for them to get jobs unless they have the proper visas. Then they'll go back where they came from. This is the only solution to lowering health care costs for illegals.

Where will they go? They consider this their land now - they will riot to keep it.

 

[ProfJohn]

My take..

As someone already pointed out illegals are already getting healthcare by just showing up at the right hospital.

Therefore you could argue that we should make it easier for them to get better healthcare by finding ways to get them enrolled into healthcare plans. You can do this by disassociating social security numbers and healthcare plans.

I doubt such a thing would ever happen though. There are so many other issues involved that it all becomes very complicated very fast.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
On the merits of civility, no one living in this nation should have second class citizenship. Holding such a status would only incur violence and riots for equal rights which should be the rights of everyone. Something we cannot disagree on if we are to uphold our constitution.

Therefore we need to enforce the border or take harsh/decisive measures against foreign populations (in the millions) on our soil. Such things could include deportation, concentration, jail. You name it. At this point, I?m rather sure our government divided by party will never accept a real solution to this problem other than flat out amnesty for anyone in the world who manages to reach our soil.

We do not have the will to stop the flood. So we might as well grab some burritos.

The "flood" cannot be stopped now with the Mexicans anymore than it could be stopped then with the Italians/Germans/Irish/etc.
It's silly to even argue.

No... it's not silly, it's downright un-American.

 

[dahunan]

If they are in need or EMERGENCY care.. treat them

If they are not and they come in.. jail them immediately and find out if they have any circumstance that would allow them to be here.. if not ... then contact their home country and tell them to arrange a flight to take them back home or one can be arranged and the bill will be sent to them or deducted from some international taxes.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
So I'm going to be doing a debate in class about healthcare for illegal immigrants. I'm the affirmative, which means I'm arguing for change of some kind to our current policies. Someone else is doing the negative, which means they are arguing for no change (stay with the status quo). I want some ideas on how to counter the negative and arguments for the affirmative.

Currently the US does not offer health care to illegals. You need a SSN and a picture ID to get health care, so illegals are disqualified. However, it is very easy for illegals to fake an ID and to give out a random SSN. I'm arguing that the US needs to make it harder for illegals to cheat the system, because right now it's too easy.

1. Health care for illegals means they get health care while not giving anything back in the form of taxes. So they are almost a pure cost on the system.

2. There are cases where illegals have actually "cut in line" in front of legal residents for things like organ donations?

3. Any other points you can think of?

Obviously it gets sticky when you throw ethics into the mix. The Hippocratic Oath would be put to the test when denying health care to another human being based on the illegality of his citizenship. To what extent do we deny health care? Do we go to the extreme and even deny emergency care? They are still human beings.

How do I combat these points?

Are you sure about the bolded. My Canadian mother in law has twice had to go to the emergency room while here in the US and her Canadian health care does not provide coverage here yet they treated her. She has no SSN or even a drivers license, all she had was a passport. They treated her even though there was 0 guarantee they would be reimbursed since all they had was her Canadian address.

 

[piasabird]

I think in some hospitals that it is illegal to not treat someone in an emergency room situation.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I think in some hospitals that it is illegal to not treat someone in an emergency room situation.

This is true, some if not all.

 

[dahunan]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: piasabird
I think in some hospitals that it is illegal to not treat someone in an emergency room situation.

This is true, some if not all.

So.. I guess the Illegals get nullified because it is Illegal not to pay your bill and Illegal to be here Illegally so two illegal actions nullify the negative

 

[jpeyton]

Originally posted by: piasabird
I think in some hospitals that it is illegal to not treat someone in an emergency room situation.

True. My local newspaper just had an article a couple days ago that mentioned a surge in uninsured patients use of the emergency room as health care costs have risen.

Lets face the facts. No hospital in their right mind would institute a policy of denying care to someone who needs it. If we want to avoid uninsured patients abusing emergency room care, we need to funnel them into the proper care with affordable health care.

 

[piasabird]

Here are some examples:

In some states the police stop people because they are breaking the law. They then realease people they know to be here illegally on the promise that they will show up in court on their court date. One problem we have is that the Federal Government makes the laws for immigration, then the States refuse to enforce the law claiming they dont have the funds to enforce the federal laws. This means if your are illegal you get a free ride and are above the law.

One purpose of legal immigration is to insure the immigrants are not criminals, and that the immigrants do not have communicable diseases. The next plague could be coming accross the border illegally. Maybe Mexico is realeasing people out of jail to come accross our border.

There is a flow of illegal drugs and the criminals involved coming accross the border. Sometimes these people even have tunnels coming under the border that we can not see to transport their drugs. They carry guns and drugs and even attack our border guards.

Another problem we have is that drug lords in Mexico are ruthless. One evidence of this, is that people in the USA are sumuggling arms and ammunition to Mexico for use by these drug gangs. One weapon they are using is a rifle which shoots .50 mm Rifle Rounds. This round is so powerful it will pass through a Car Door, the bulletproof police vest and through the police officer.

There is a major illegal trade of Identity Theft that is being performed by people who sell Identitiy to Illegal Immigrants. There was a major arrest of some 300 people announced today connected with the Pilgrim's Pride Poultry company in Texas and other southern states.

There is a problem of illegal immigrants being paid under the table for their work, without tax dollars being collected. So states with large numbers of undocumented workers are probably missing out on millions or billions in income tax and other taxes that are not collected, whether it is a large company, construction day laborers or even maids and gardeners.

States and Cities that have large numbers of undocumented workers do not have resources to police the employers of these undocumented workers. No one really know how many there are. Sometimes how businesses get around the legalities of employing illegals is they hire some third party to provide janitorial work and they let the third party hire all the Illegals. We should make all the hotels and other businesses responsible for this kind of third party illegal employees. So when they are found you go after the hotel or primary business for loss of taxes or for tax evasion.

Education is also a problem. The federal government has ruled that the state must educate the illegals, or children of illegals that are in their state. Then there is also an issue of federal and state aid being spent on educating children of Illegal Aliens that may or may not be US Citizens. It is illegal to give a NON US Citizen Federal Loans or Federal Financial Aid. This is an issue for our education system. States will not report these people as being illegal, yet the same states do not want to help pay for their education either. It is my contention that if any state does not police up these undocumented residents, that they have volunteered to be responsible for their education.

 

[rpanic]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
On the merits of civility, no one living in this nation should have second class citizenship. Holding such a status would only incur violence and riots for equal rights which should be the rights of everyone. Something we cannot disagree on if we are to uphold our constitution.

Therefore we need to enforce the border or take harsh/decisive measures against foreign populations (in the millions) on our soil. Such things could include deportation, concentration, jail. You name it. At this point, I?m rather sure our government divided by party will never accept a real solution to this problem other than flat out amnesty for anyone in the world who manages to reach our soil.

We do not have the will to stop the flood. So we might as well grab some burritos.

The "flood" cannot be stopped now with the Mexicans anymore than it could be stopped then with the Italians/Germans/Irish/etc.
It's silly to even argue.

No... it's not silly, it's downright un-American.

If we enforce our laws this wouldn?t even be anything to argue about.

Illegals from Mexico dwarf the total of any past immigrant group every few years. Also none of the past immigrant groups thought the land was theirs by right and that we do not belong here which seems to become more popular every year, now that seems un-American.

At least Mexico does such a great job keeping Illgals out of their country that it keep down the flood from the rest of South America.

 

[rpanic]

It would be unethical to deny service but until we get the problem under control, we could patch them up when they are in the emergency room and then send them off to a hospital in Mexico and pay for their care. We save money, they get taken care of, and get deported. I am sure it?s cheaper to get a liver in Mexico.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: rpanic

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
On the merits of civility, no one living in this nation should have second class citizenship. Holding such a status would only incur violence and riots for equal rights which should be the rights of everyone. Something we cannot disagree on if we are to uphold our constitution.

Therefore we need to enforce the border or take harsh/decisive measures against foreign populations (in the millions) on our soil. Such things could include deportation, concentration, jail. You name it. At this point, I?m rather sure our government divided by party will never accept a real solution to this problem other than flat out amnesty for anyone in the world who manages to reach our soil.

We do not have the will to stop the flood. So we might as well grab some burritos.

The "flood" cannot be stopped now with the Mexicans anymore than it could be stopped then with the Italians/Germans/Irish/etc.
It's silly to even argue.

No... it's not silly, it's downright un-American.

If we enforce our laws this wouldn?t even be anything to argue about.

Illegals from Mexico dwarf the total of any past immigrant group every few years. Also none of the past immigrant groups thought the land was theirs by right and that we do not belong here which seems to become more popular every year, now that seems un-American.

At least Mexico does such a great job keeping Illgals out of their country that it keep down the flood from the rest of South America.

The laws are not enforceable. That's what I was saying. As bad as you might think the situation could be, the cost of enforcement would be even higher.

And Mexico does a great job keeping illegals out of their country by having a police state and poor job market (which is why Mexican are coming to the US in the first place).
Is that what you want for the US?

 

[Socio]

I live on the border and one big problem we have is our emergency room is always packed because Mexican nationals can just come across the border to our hospital and if they are sick or injured they get treated for free of course. They come in number and this causes long waits to get treated but it is not like they don?t have their own hospitals, it is more like why pay when you can get better for free.

 

[mc00]

Why isn't wrong for us to give "illegal" proper health care...
I believe if they have urgent emergency no Hospital shouldn't refuse to help the patient. We have the bad apples t abuse the system, and they get mad when we refuse to services them...
If the "illegals" just doing a normal check up than they should be able to pay affordable fee. Ask your self.
How would you feel if you are in a foreign country and you break your leg. You expect them to treat you or just kick you out
because you are an "illegal"?

I am against illegals that come from a foreign country, and breaks our laws skipping(getting pardons,lottery,etc...) everyone that it's waiting to get there documents. heh. than they expect us to let them slide.

 

[Pliablemoose]

I work in the Dallas Fort Worth metro area and worked for years in the ER.

I can't count the times an illegal showed up with "chest pain" and a thorough cardiac workup from their freaking doctor in Mexico City suggesting they needed a coronary bypass.

All paid for with your tax dollars.

I couldn't stand it any more, and don't work in the ER setting any longer.

 

[ScottyB]

Ship them to the SOUTHERN border of Mexico with an I.V. drip.

 

[BoomerD]

Not a fucking dime.

BTW, they already get free health care...they show up at the local hospital emergency room, where they're treated because the hospital is prohibited from refusing care based on ability to pay, then they never pay a dime of the bill.

We should start treating illegals who cross our southern border the same way Mexico treats the illegal immigrants who cross THEIR southern border...
Turn-about is fair play...right?