There is absolutely NO WAY we should be giving free health care to people. If we give free health care to anyone then we need to give it to EVERYONE.
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
On the merits of civility, no one living in this nation should have second class citizenship. Holding such a status would only incur violence and riots for equal rights which should be the rights of everyone. Something we cannot disagree on if we are to uphold our constitution.
Therefore we need to enforce the border or take harsh/decisive measures against foreign populations (in the millions) on our soil. Such things could include deportation, concentration, jail. You name it. At this point, I?m rather sure our government divided by party will never accept a real solution to this problem other than flat out amnesty for anyone in the world who manages to reach our soil.
We do not have the will to stop the flood. So we might as well grab some burritos.
The "flood" cannot be stopped now with the Mexicans anymore than it could be stopped then with the Italians/Germans/Irish/etc.
It's silly to even argue.
No... it's not silly, it's downright un-American.
Originally posted by: Toasthead
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
On the merits of civility, no one living in this nation should have second class citizenship. Holding such a status would only incur violence and riots for equal rights which should be the rights of everyone. Something we cannot disagree on if we are to uphold our constitution.
Therefore we need to enforce the border or take harsh/decisive measures against foreign populations (in the millions) on our soil. Such things could include deportation, concentration, jail. You name it. At this point, I?m rather sure our government divided by party will never accept a real solution to this problem other than flat out amnesty for anyone in the world who manages to reach our soil.
We do not have the will to stop the flood. So we might as well grab some burritos.
The "flood" cannot be stopped now with the Mexicans anymore than it could be stopped then with the Italians/Germans/Irish/etc.
It's silly to even argue.
No... it's not silly, it's downright un-American.
Except the Italians/Germans/Irish/ didn't come here and expect ANYTHING, but a chance to work hard and a chance to become and AMERICAN. Illegal Immigrants today do not always want those things. They EXPECT to be taken care of though...and that's the issue.
Originally posted by: mc00
Why isn't wrong for us to give "illegal" proper health care...
I believe if they have urgent emergency no Hospital shouldn't refuse to help the patient. We have the bad apples t abuse the system, and they get mad when we refuse to services them...
If the "illegals" just doing a normal check up than they should be able to pay affordable fee. Ask your self.
How would you feel if you are in a foreign country and you break your leg. You expect them to treat you or just kick you out
because you are an "illegal"?
I am against illegals that come from a foreign country, and breaks our laws skipping(getting pardons,lottery,etc...) everyone that it's waiting to get there documents. heh. than they expect us to let them slide.
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
On the merits of civility, no one living in this nation should have second class citizenship. Holding such a status would only incur violence and riots for equal rights which should be the rights of everyone. Something we cannot disagree on if we are to uphold our constitution.
Therefore we need to enforce the border or take harsh/decisive measures against foreign populations (in the millions) on our soil. Such things could include deportation, concentration, jail. You name it. At this point, I?m rather sure our government divided by party will never accept a real solution to this problem other than flat out amnesty for anyone in the world who manages to reach our soil.
We do not have the will to stop the flood. So we might as well grab some burritos.
The "flood" cannot be stopped now with the Mexicans anymore than it could be stopped then with the Italians/Germans/Irish/etc.
It's silly to even argue.
No... it's not silly, it's downright un-American.
Originally posted by: Vic
The "flood" cannot be stopped now with the Mexicans anymore than it could be stopped then with the Italians/Germans/Irish/etc.
It's silly to even argue.
No... it's not silly, it's downright un-American.
Originally posted by: AAjax
To say a populace or citizenry has no right to govern its own immagration policy is downright un-American.
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
As my post said I caution against the disenfranchisement of the people currently living in our nation. Anything less than full citizenship will incur violence. We cannot foster a subclass of citizenry and so we stand at rather perilous times for no one is willing to solve the dilemmas our present situation bears.
Why can?t we just let them all in, let the flood continue unstopped? It is interesting to say that displacing the natives is American, but this time we happen to be the natives. We have enough illegals in this nation to replace the population of my state 10 times.
A lot of Americans are fleeing the border states due to the radical changes taking place. The number of people there who speak English and have a good education are greatly diminished over previous generations. Not like the majority our immigrants these days come from our common European first world background. We are importing a huge amount of poverty and foreign culture that is removing the wealth and culture Americans already had.
We're allowing ourselves to be subverted and anyone who complains is "un-American" eh?
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: AAjax
To say a populace or citizenry has no right to govern its own immagration policy is downright un-American.
Well then, it's a good thing that I didn't anything like that, eh?
Originally posted by: AAjax
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: AAjax
To say a populace or citizenry has no right to govern its own immagration policy is downright un-American.
Well then, it's a good thing that I didn't anything like that, eh?
You implied that we cannot stop illegal immigration if we so chose, and went on to imply that trying to implent enforcement would be Un-American.
What did I miss?
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: AAjax
Originally posted by: Vic
Originally posted by: AAjax
To say a populace or citizenry has no right to govern its own immagration policy is downright un-American.
Well then, it's a good thing that I didn't anything like that, eh?
You implied that we cannot stop illegal immigration if we so chose, and went on to imply that trying to implent enforcement would be Un-American.
What did I miss?
That I said that any potential benefits would outweigh the cost?
And really, what's the emotional deal here beside bigotry and xenophobia?
What your ethnicity BTW? I'm Irish-English for the most part. Most of my ancestor immigrated to America in the 1840s.
Originally posted by: Vic
That I said that any potential benefits would outweigh the cost?
And really, what's the emotional deal here beside bigotry and xenophobia?
What your ethnicity BTW? I'm Irish-English for the most part. Most of my ancestor immigrated to America in the 1840s.
Originally posted by: AAjax
But my race is American, and it cannot be so defined by color but in the hope and desire for the right of a free people to govern themselves, and inact policy.
What race is "American?" Or are you saying these illegal immigrants don't have that same hope and desire? That IMO would be silly.Originally posted by: AAjax
How Sir do you denote bigotry and xenophobia from the attempt to discuss imigration policy (other than the knee jerk "I dont have a valid/legal based argument so Ill toss out the race card whenever I can to insinuate the poor personal character of those I dissagree with and cannot address in a civil forum")
But Im not affraid of declaring my ancestory, Irish Scottish. But my race is American, and it cannot be so defined by color but in the hope and desire for the right of a free people to govern themselves, and inact policy.
Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: Vic
That I said that any potential benefits would outweigh the cost?
And really, what's the emotional deal here beside bigotry and xenophobia?
What your ethnicity BTW? I'm Irish-English for the most part. Most of my ancestor immigrated to America in the 1840s.
But of course you'll play the racist, bigot, *phobe card like so many others. I was waiting for you to remind us of the color of their skin. So I wonder what motivates you to attack - what are you defending through such offense?
Ethnicity? I'm an American and would have myself identified no other way. Maybe that is Un-American eh? All I know is one part native American, many parts European.
Originally posted by: AAjax
But my race is American, and it cannot be so defined by color but in the hope and desire for the right of a free people to govern themselves, and inact policy.
How do we govern ourselves when 10s of millions become the new majority population in several states? Do we flee our homes, as I did with California? That Vic, is our ?emotional deal?. Imagine if 1 million red necks moved into your town and became the new majority thereby encroaching on you.
Would you expect us to call you a Xenophobe against rednecks, or would you want us to stand up for the sovereignty of the natives?
Originally posted by: Vic
What race is "American?" Or are you saying these illegal immigrants don't have that same hope and desire? That IMO would be silly.Originally posted by: AAjax
How Sir do you denote bigotry and xenophobia from the attempt to discuss imigration policy (other than the knee jerk "I dont have a valid/legal based argument so Ill toss out the race card whenever I can to insinuate the poor personal character of those I dissagree with and cannot address in a civil forum")
But Im not affraid of declaring my ancestory, Irish Scottish. But my race is American, and it cannot be so defined by color but in the hope and desire for the right of a free people to govern themselves, and inact policy.
And you're not discussing immigration policy, you're ranting. When you want to discuss immigration policy, let me know. I do believe that we should consider effective, beneficial means of controlling immigration. I just don't think that outlawing all immigration, building a giant freakin armed wall, and deporting everyone who is here already qualifies as any of that.
Originally posted by: fuzzybabybunny
-snip-
Currently the US does not offer health care to illegals. You need a SSN and a picture ID to get health care, so illegals are disqualified. However, it is very easy for illegals to fake an ID and to give out a random SSN. I'm arguing that the US needs to make it harder for illegals to cheat the system, because right now it's too easy.
1. Health care for illegals means they get health care while not giving anything back in the form of taxes. So they are almost a pure cost on the system.
Tax CPA here. Currently it's quite easy for illegal aliens to avoid paying income tax. They can claim up to 9 (bogus) personal exemptions w/o question. That alone shelters $30, 600 from income tax. Then there is the standard deduction ranging from $5,350 - 10,700. I.e., $35K - 40K of wages with no income tax withheld. That's IF their earnings are reported. If claim these exemptions, then you just don't actually file. To be sure, they are aware of these rules, and often use them (My office does payroll for some smaller factories that hire illegals, so I've seen these abused fisrt-hand.)
2. There are cases where illegals have actually "cut in line" in front of legal residents for things like organ donations?
3. Any other points you can think of?
There are many sites that quantify the cost to Medicaid (basically free health care for low income) of illegals. It's quite significant.
Since these people tend to work in few select industries (e.g., agriculture) I feel it amounts to an unfair subsidy by the public for those companies in these few industries. Other industries/companies have to bear healthcare for their employees; how is it in any way fair that some get taxpayer subsidy for their employees' healthcare?
If the price of those products (certain vegetables & fruit) rises, so be it. The consumers of these products should be paying FMV instead of having their purchases subsidized by eveybody else.
I believe the "free healthcare" is just another aspect of luring illegal immigrants here. Clearly the most agreed upon method of discouraging illegal imigration is reducing/eliminating the incentives that attract them. So, eliminating this aspect (free healthcare) has illegal immigration policy benefits and should be implemented alon with efforts to discourage employment.
Obviously it gets sticky when you throw ethics into the mix. The Hippocratic Oath would be put to the test when denying health care to another human being based on the illegality of his citizenship. To what extent do we deny health care? Do we go to the extreme and even deny emergency care? They are still human beings.
Emergency care, which is merely to stabalize the patient is fine. We citizens have no right beyond that either. I have googled and was unable to find any law that says a hospital HAS to treat you or I. Apparently it is a myth; people are refused treatment at hospitals all the time. They must be stabilized is all.
In a perfect world the USA would be able to provide free medical care (among other things) to all the world's poor people. However we cannot. I say it's unethical to attempt to do so until we can provide such for our own citizens. Clearly, we owe our own more than we owe non-citizens (if we owe them at all). A nation's first responsibility is to it's own people. So, I believe it unethical to provide resourses to non-citizens that we don't first provide our own citizens.
Then why in hell have they not bothered to learn English yet.Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Originally posted by: conehead433
Make it nearly impossible for them to get jobs unless they have the proper visas. Then they'll go back where they came from. This is the only solution to lowering health care costs for illegals.
Where will they go? They consider this their land now - they will riot to keep it.
Originally posted by: ElFenix
medical care in what sense? any hospital that accepts public funds is required by EMTALA to stabilize anyone who comes in, illegal or not. any illegal immigrant may pay cash. they may purchase insurance policies. though the last two are unlikely, there are no legal barriers involved with the former and i don't believe there are any legal barriers to the latter.
The federal Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (EMTALA) mandates that U.S. hospitals with emergency-room services must treat anyone who requires care, including illegal aliens.
Originally posted by: Darwin333
So the next time I go to the hospital I just have to say I am illegal and its all free? Anyone know exactly how this works and what we should say?
I have pretty decent insurance but it still costs a pretty penny for a hospital visit.