Hearthstone

[Pia]

It's also just not that much fun. That's good feedback that says to me to skip it.

The same would apply to Magic the Gathering - if both players have similar quality cards, it's fun, if one has a clear advantage, I don't think so.

Now, if it had play segregated to 'free players' could only play others with similar cards, that'd be fine, but it doesn't sound like it. Sounds 'pay to win'.

I hate pay-to-win, and indeed constructed HS has a degree of pay-to-win until you have a decent amount of cards. If arena didn't exist, I probably would have quit. Instead, I played hundreds of arena matches, playing a bit of constructed here and there when I needed gold for the next arena fee. That got me a card collection sufficient to build 3+ good constructed decks, and I didn't even disenchant any cards I didn't have duplicates of, which would have sped up the process (at the cost of slowing down later deckbuilding).

For a free player who doesn't have cards for good decks yet, arena is nice because there's no pay-to-win aspect to it, and you eventually get to experiment with every card over the course of playing multiple arenas. Even if you have a good constructed deck or several, arena can be an interesting side dish because it takes slightly different skills and mentality. If you play well, it gives you more cards/dust over time than playing constructed and buying packs with gold. Play really well, and you get more gold from each round than the entry fee was, so you can buy into a new arena without having to go pop in constructed at all. (That level takes quite a bit of skill though.)

I'd recommend playing a bit of constructed with cheap decks first to get a feel for the game mechanics and get familiar with the cards. Newbie mistakes are inevitable, best to make the first bunch of them in casual mode where they cost nothing instead of in arena where they prematurely end your arena run.

 

[Aikouka]

I've been having some bad lucky lately in Arena (Arena Mastery link). I chose Rogue because it was my quest, and man... I think I should've chose Rogue earlier! At least at this point, I'm 5-0 after going 0-3 on a Warrior.

One thing that I'd like to find out is how Trump keeps note of his arena runs. He usually links a .hs file in his Twitch stream (example), and it looks like this mIRC bot does it...? Anyone have any idea? I'd like to keep track of this stuff a bit easier than having to write it all down or type it all into Arena Mastery.

 

[Craig234]

Thanks for the comments. I started to download it today and ran into a pet peeve, if you don't take their install directory you have to type one from scratch. Bleh, no excuse.

 

[Pia]

I've been having some bad lucky lately in Arena (Arena Mastery link). I chose Rogue because it was my quest, and man... I think I should've chose Rogue earlier! At least at this point, I'm 5-0 after going 0-3 on a Warrior.

One thing that I'd like to find out is how Trump keeps note of his arena runs. He usually links a .hs file in his Twitch stream (example), and it looks like this mIRC bot does it...? Anyone have any idea? I'd like to keep track of this stuff a bit easier than having to write it all down or type it all into Arena Mastery.

I haven't looked into HS logging automation so can't help there, but would be interested to hear about it if you figure out a good setup. I guess you are primarily looking for an easy way to record your individual draft choices? I'd personally be more interested in automation that can track seen/unseen cards in a deck live during a match. My own Google Docs spreadsheet has seemed reasonable for tracking the basic data like hero/opponent/coin/win etc. I have a sheet where each row is an arena run, and a formula shows automatic win-loss total counters for the run, plus another sheet for "serious" ladder matches with a row per match.

Re: rogue, she is about as strong as mage in arena. Rogue might actually be more consistent in terms of being able to squeeze out wins even with relatively bad cards. I haven't gotten many 12-win arena runs overall (maybe 5 or so?), but I got two of those in a row on successive runs with rogue! I suspect a lot of people haven't realized rogue's strength because they are playing her wrong; correct play with rogue in arena is much less intuitive than with mage. Compared to constructed, arena rogues can be almost suicidal with face-hitting enemy minions since arena decks are typically so low on burst. Of course you have to be mindful of the exceptions and play around the small around of burst that is reasonable to expect from some classes.

 

[Aikouka]

I haven't looked into HS logging automation so can't help there, but would be interested to hear about it if you figure out a good setup. I guess you are primarily looking for an easy way to record your individual draft choices? I'd personally be more interested in automation that can track seen/unseen cards in a deck live during a match. My own Google Docs spreadsheet has seemed reasonable for tracking the basic data like hero/opponent/coin/win etc. I have a sheet where each row is an arena run, and a formula shows automatic win-loss total counters for the run, plus another sheet for "serious" ladder matches with a row per match.

Individual draft choices is one of the things that I'd like to record. Ultimately, it would be nice to be able to link to it and get opinions on what I could be doing better. Keeping track of card draw would be nice too. If I enter my cards into that arena tracker, I can click them off when I draw them, and it also reports draw chance for undrawn cards. That's what made that one warrior match painful where I had nothing worthwhile to play for turns 1-4. "6% chance to draw that one... 4% for that one... 7% for that one!? $@%^ YOU RNG!!"

Re: rogue, she is about as strong as mage in arena. Rogue might actually be more consistent in terms of being able to squeeze out wins even with relatively bad cards. I haven't gotten many 12-win arena runs overall (maybe 5 or so?), but I got two of those in a row on successive runs with rogue! I suspect a lot of people haven't realized rogue's strength because they are playing her wrong; correct play with rogue in arena is much less intuitive than with mage. Compared to constructed, arena rogues can be almost suicidal with face-hitting enemy minions since arena decks are typically so low on burst. Of course you have to be mindful of the exceptions and play around the small around of burst that is reasonable to expect from some classes.

I definitely was hitting enemies quite often with my Rogue... especially since I have two Assassin's Blades. I actually won the Rogue vs. Rogue mirror match with only 3 HP left. I also made some plays that probably would've seemed strange to some. Ultimately, I sacrificed some combo potential to gain a combo chance on a different card. For example, on one turn, I played a normal Cold Blood to toss out a SI:7 Agent, which allowed me to kill the enemy minion and retain all of mine vs. using Cold Blood and trading. Given how commonplace combo cards are in the early game, I wonder if I should put a stronger focus on low-cost (i.e. 1-cost) minions? In some cases, I actually held onto cards like the Worgen, because it's very easy to use a 1-cost card to combo off of.

Although, speaking of being more aggressive, I think that might be part of my problem in arena -- I'm not being aggressive enough. I've definitely spent a lot of time watching Trump's videos, and it's pretty apparent that he tends to be a more cautious player. Although, I'd argue that there's a clear advantage with the player that is capable of pushing his opponent to trade when they're not forced to. However, that can also be a dangerous game that you play when your opponent ends up having hard removal in their hand. So, I guess you could say that it's not wise to be aggressive unless you have something good in your hand. For example, if I have a Sap in my hand as a Rogue, I can consider being more aggressive since I can reset a troublesome minion.

 

[EDUSAN]

im having so bad streaks in arena lately

when i started playing hearthstone 3 months ago more or less i played arena instead of ladder to get more cards and i did fairly well back then.... i could normally get 5+ wins
then i started laddering and using my gold on packs
now that i have almost all the cards that i want im doing arenas again since they give more stuff than buying the packs... but i cant do well... i got to 3 wins once in the last 5 arenas... and i even got the chance to be a mage.

but i feel like im having SOOOO BAD DRAWS.... for example... a deck that has only 2 epics, no legendaries and only a handful of rares... its hard to win just with commons

how many big dudes do you guys decide to have on your own arena decks?
i try to have like 3 7+, 3/5 6 mana ones, probably 3/5 5 mana ones and then i get what i can... i try to have a bunch of 2 mana ones to start playing stuff early

what strategy do you guys use on the ramp?

 

[robvp]

I usually try my best at using cards that synergize with my first few picks, it's very hard with the high RNG dependancy, otherwise i just try to make decks with cheap minions for early game, single removals and board clears and a couple of 7 mana minions for finishing

I haven't done too well in arena thogh lol, started doing fine but lately i end up just retiring my deck after the first 2 games (losses)

 

[Pia]

I definitely was hitting enemies quite often with my Rogue... especially since I have two Assassin's Blades.

Two is often too much for Assassin's Blade because you have no way to dump the damage fast, can't bypass taunt, and run out of health for minion-hitting.

Given how commonplace combo cards are in the early game, I wonder if I should put a stronger focus on low-cost (i.e. 1-cost) minions? In some cases, I actually held onto cards like the Worgen, because it's very easy to use a 1-cost card to combo off of.

You shouldn't be drafting almost any 1-cost minions because they are too weak to be worth a card, even though it would be nice to be able to play something turn 1. Worgen is great, Mana Wyrm good. There's the odd poor card selection where you can't do better than a Squire or Young Priestess, but it's rare.

Combo in general is much weaker in arena than constructed. Not worth investing much in activation.

Although, speaking of being more aggressive, I think that might be part of my problem in arena -- I'm not being aggressive enough. I've definitely spent a lot of time watching Trump's videos, and it's pretty apparent that he tends to be a more cautious player. Although, I'd argue that there's a clear advantage with the player that is capable of pushing his opponent to trade when they're not forced to.

I'd say good play starts with always making favorable trades / clearing; one can do well in arenas with just that. Most games are won by dominating the board, and the opponent having more health just means you have to swing one more turn with a board you already have. Yes, you should try to find the situations where the opponent has to do the trade for you and you can therefore do a few extra face damage, but since that doesn't improve board position, it only gives you the potential to maybe close out the game faster in a burst or force the opponent to do something desperate. You also have to consider the decks and heroes in the match, and moderate your aggression based on who you think is going to run out of steam faster.

However, that can also be a dangerous game that you play when your opponent ends up having hard removal in their hand. So, I guess you could say that it's not wise to be aggressive unless you have something good in your hand. For example, if I have a Sap in my hand as a Rogue, I can consider being more aggressive since I can reset a troublesome minion.

It depends, but playing safe always isn't optimal. Sometimes you just take the risk because it works out often enough. Also, your minion that hits face and takes a removal has delivered value, just in a different way than if it had traded.

Disagree on the rationale of Sap -> more aggro. The real reason of being more aggressive with it in hand is the potential to sap a taunt, which means you have improved chances of pushing for lethal in the near future, which is what makes it more valuable than usual to do face damage now. Sapping while reloading an empty board is a weak play (even when correct), not something you should want to fall back on.

 

[Pia]

but i feel like im having SOOOO BAD DRAWS.... for example... a deck that has only 2 epics, no legendaries and only a handful of rares... its hard to win just with commons

Most of the best arena cards are commons and rares, actually.

how many big dudes do you guys decide to have on your own arena decks?
i try to have like 3 7+, 3/5 6 mana ones, probably 3/5 5 mana ones and then i get what i can... i try to have a bunch of 2 mana ones to start playing stuff early

what strategy do you guys use on the ramp?

You are ramping far too heavy. Concentrate on the value of individual cards and on having a solid amount of 2-3-4 drops. The amount of expensive cards should depend on how many good ones you are offered. A deck can work OK even if it has nothing beyond 5 mana, but it's a little atypical. Having something like two Boulderfist Ogres is pretty normal and fine - no need to draft crap like Core Hounds on last pick just because your deck has a low curve. I probably wouldn't go >3 7+mana and >5 6mana even if the draft was full of Sea Giants, Argent Commanders and the like, because you'll die too much before being able to play all the goodness.

 

[EDUSAN]

something like 2/2/2 sounds reasonable?

so from the 30 cards... you have 6 that are 5+ cost and 24 that are 2/3/4 cost?

of course you are always dependant on what you are given to chose from, but you can balance the amount of drops you get at that mana cost, since there arent so many choices that surpass 6 costs (there are a ton of 5 drop choices though)

in my class tier list i always chose mage if i have the chance, pally 2nd (because im more used to pallys) and priest 3rd but after that im kinda in the dark about what should i chose between rogue, shaman, warrior, druid, warlock or hunter

I believe warlock, and i read it everywhere, is not a good pick because the warlock cards are pretty harmful to yourself and hunter can rock or suck depending on what beast synergy you get.
And i agree with that...

but what about the other classes?

 

[Pia]

something like 2/2/2 sounds reasonable?

so from the 30 cards... you have 6 that are 5+ cost and 24 that are 2/3/4 cost?

Like I said, depends on if you are offered expensive cards worth picking. 2/2/2 is pretty normal. Usually you'd have a bit more 5s though... there are so many good 5s in Arena like Sllver Hand Knight. Often you don't get any 7+s that you should take, especially if you aren't playing a hero like Mage that has a must-pick 7+ common card.

 

[Pia]

Re: class tiers: it goes roughly

Mage/Rogue
Paladin
Shaman/Druid
Warrior/Hunter/Priest/Warlock

The difference between top and bottom tiers is vast.

There's a bit of personal preference, and some are easier to play than others. You have to draft cards a bit differently for many classes. Priest, for instance, generally sucks but people who have very good skills with it can do OK - I believe at some point Trump had the highest arena winrate with priest.

 

[EDUSAN]

priest so low? really?

it has quite a bunch of cards that make your minions more resilience in trading, i always thought it was a great class

what makes rogue so good? the ability to kill minions with the hero power? because the rogue cards are not that great and unless you are given a lot of rogue cards its card to pull out some combos.... or at least that is what i always thought about with rogue in arena

 

[Wardawg1001]

Most of the best arena cards are commons and rares, actually.

You are ramping far too heavy. Concentrate on the value of individual cards and on having a solid amount of 2-3-4 drops. The amount of expensive cards should depend on how many good ones you are offered. A deck can work OK even if it has nothing beyond 5 mana, but it's a little atypical. Having something like two Boulderfist Ogres is pretty normal and fine - no need to draft crap like Core Hounds on last pick just because your deck has a low curve. I probably wouldn't go >3 7+mana and >5 6mana even if the draft was full of Sea Giants, Argent Commanders and the like, because you'll die too much before being able to play all the goodness.

I'd even go so far as to say it's almost never correct to draft strictly for your curve. Sure it might be pretty hard to get a lot of wins with a deck that has 1 3-drop and 1 5-drop or something bizarre like that, but its usually even harder to get many wins with an ideal curve and a deck full of low quality spells/minions.

Trying to draft into a specific curve usually just results in making sub-par choices, especially early in the draft. It's pick 10 and you already have 6 4-mana cards, then get offered a Yeti? Take the Yeti, every time.

Certainly there are situations where its appropriate, like if you are on pick 25, you have only 1 2-drop minion, and you're given the option between a Bloodfen Raptor or your 4th Flamestrike. Take the Raptor there, sure.

Where you really want to use the curve of your deck to help make decisions is when you're offered cards that are just bad or mediocre. Every arena draft is full of these decisions, and this is where you can throw out a little bit of value by picking a slightly worse card in order to fill out your mana curve. But never let a lack of 6-mana cards convince you to take that Lord of the Arena over a Fireball.

 

[HumblePie]

priest so low? really?

it has quite a bunch of cards that make your minions more resilience in trading, i always thought it was a great class

what makes rogue so good? the ability to kill minions with the hero power? because the rogue cards are not that great and unless you are given a lot of rogue cards its card to pull out some combos.... or at least that is what i always thought about with rogue in arena

Draft is different from constructed.

Draft you need to be less reliant upon specific combos, and more reliant on the power of the individual cards. Especially class cards. The mage class basic cards for example are very good at direct damage and board control without need for any sort of combo. Priest cards aren't without the proper combo setups usually.

Of course getting a mage for your deck choice in arena and then getting stuck without only shitty high casting cost neutral creatures to choose from with no control/class cards just sucks balls. It has happened to me on many occasion. I don't even bother playing a single game when I get shit like that to build a deck from. I just turn in the key automatically. Saves time as my reward would be the same since there would be zero change of having more than 3 wins with such a deck before suffering 3 losses.

 

[Pia]

priest so low? really?

it has quite a bunch of cards that make your minions more resilience in trading, i always thought it was a great class

Relying too much on minion buffs is bad since the minion can die to hard removal or get silenced; cards like Divine Spirit are bad.

Priest removal spells are very specialized, which means you should get a balanced mix of them, which generally doesn't happen in arena, so your removal will probably suck. Which is compounded by the fact arena decks play more +stat type effects than constructed decks, and players can deliberately put their minions at 4 attack where priest's Shadow Words can't touch it. Note how constructed priest decks use very specific cards like Wild Pyromancer, Sylvanas, and Auchenai-Circle combos to cover that weakness. Arena priest doesn't have efficient mass removal.

Priest also has a relatively weak hero power and the minions aren't very good.

what makes rogue so good? the ability to kill minions with the hero power? because the rogue cards are not that great and unless you are given a lot of rogue cards its card to pull out some combos.... or at least that is what i always thought about with rogue in arena

That's where you are wrong. Rogue has a ton of cards with sick efficiency and tempo gain that are also very flexible to use. Deadly Poison in opening hand means the rogue can kill a 3-health creature on turn 3, and another on turn 4, spending only 3 mana (which the rogue can even choose to distribute over two turns), all for 1 card! Backstabbing an enemy minion on turn 2 while playing your own is a huge tempo swing with no card disadvantage. Eviscerate is one of the best damage spells in the game together with Frostbolt and Fireball. Assassinate is great. Assassin's Blade is great. Perdition's Blade is disgustingly good at times. SI:7 Agent is not bad even without the combo effect, and one of the best cards in the game if you can combo it. Betrayal is a bit situational, but usually at least does significant damage to one minion, and at its best destroys two massive minions and wins the game immediately. Sap is also situational, but a huge tempo card at times, and a nice answer to a lot of things you don't have a "real" answer for.

 

[EDUSAN]

ill give rogue another chance

btw...by combo i was talking about the combo ability of the rogue cards, not about a specific combo

 

[Aikouka]

Played a Shaman arena last night, and I think Lava Burst was my only form of removal. It wasn't pretty. Now, I've got a game with two Lightning Storms, one Lava Burst and one Hex, and it's definitely quite a bit cleaner. Although, one annoying thing that I kept running into last night was Warlocks with constructed-level combos. They played a Voidcaller on curve, and just happened to have a Doomguard in hand. When there's a chance that you won't even get a silence, or won't even draw it, that's trouble. :$

Two is often too much for Assassin's Blade because you have no way to dump the damage fast, can't bypass taunt, and run out of health for minion-hitting.

I certainly wouldn't draft more than two given it takes at least eight turns to go through two (4 durability each). However, I never found two to be a problem, but in a way, I was lucky that I never drew into both of them far too early in the game. I would also say that having two might be slightly better if you have a Blade Flurry in your deck, which I did.

You shouldn't be drafting almost any 1-cost minions because they are too weak to be worth a card, even though it would be nice to be able to play something turn 1. Worgen is great, Mana Wyrm good. There's the odd poor card selection where you can't do better than a Squire or Young Priestess, but it's rare.

The only 1-cost minions that I'll usually go for are Argent Squire, Worgen Infiltrator, Mana Wyrm, Stonetusk Boar (usually only for Hunter), and maybe Leper Gnome. If I already have a deck with plenty of Deathrattle-based minions, I'll probably take Undertaker. Albeit, Undertaker being a 1/2 by default really isn't that bad.

Combo in general is much weaker in arena than constructed. Not worth investing much in activation.

While combos may be (sometimes) ridiculous in constructed, I've made plenty of great (to me) plays using combos in arena.

I'd say good play starts with always making favorable trades / clearing; one can do well in arenas with just that.

Eh, I see what you're saying, but I can't fully agree. The problem that I've noticed is that you may not get a lot of card draw. If you're playing with a low-cost deck, you're going to run out of steam. By pushing for trades constantly, you're eventually going to run low on plays. What's going to happen is that the enemy is either going to be in the same boat or will have a definite card advantage. Just thinking about it is bringing back terrible memories of the Mage that coined out a Cult Master behind two sets of Mirror Images, and I had no direct removal.

Most games are won by dominating the board

Yes, but we're talking about trading minions... which means you don't really have board control given your minions are still "sleeping". In other words, if two plays continue to play a back and forth tug-of-war over board control, you'll end up getting nowhere fast.

Disagree on the rationale of Sap -> more aggro. The real reason of being more aggressive with it in hand is the potential to sap a taunt, which means you have improved chances of pushing for lethal in the near future, which is what makes it more valuable than usual to do face damage now. Sapping while reloading an empty board is a weak play (even when correct), not something you should want to fall back on.

A troublesome minion does include a taunt. Keep in mind that when I mention doing something, I'm not just taking into account the current turn. I try to at least look a turn or two ahead. The idea is that if i think sapping the minion, whether it's a taunt or not, gives me a significant advantage (like winning in one to two turns), I'll probably take it.

 

[Fallen Kell]

I need to look into a new Paladin deck. The current one I use I made after the expansions, so it does have some decent combos from the 3mana 1/4 minions that completely heal themselves at the beginning of the turn (work great with the 1 mana +3 damage, or even 4 mana +4/4, cards that Paladins have), and I think I have the twins (the 4/7, 7/4) that summon the 11/11 after they both die, but the deck just doesn't seem to do to well anymore, took me like 5-6 games just to win 2, and it wasn't because I didn't play my deck correctly, it just couldn't win (I also have equality, the avenge secret (+3/2 to a friendly minion upon death of a friendly minion), a couple silences from the 4/3's, the 2/2's that set the attack to 1, at least 1 big game hunter... I mean, all the stuff you need for decent removal/negation of enemy minions)...

 

[Aikouka]

Ugh, Arena can be the most frustrating thing in the world when you're up against decks that have an answer to everything that you do. Of course, it's even worse when you're kind enough to let the other player get the satisfaction of killing you, and the idiot sits there being cute about it by doing crap like killing all your minions first. :twisted:

 

[Chacotako]

Ugh, Arena can be the most frustrating thing in the world when you're up against decks that have an answer to everything that you do. Of course, it's even worse when you're kind enough to let the other player get the satisfaction of killing you, and the idiot sits there being cute about it by doing crap like killing all your minions first. :twisted:

I used to always let my opponent kill me, but after waiting for ten minutes while they try and figure out the most effective way to BM, I just concede.

 

[lupi]

Bad arena would be opening it up, seeing the 3 classes offered being the same 3 that would appear on a list of classes you'd least like to see, then after going 1-1 you see the next opponent as Trump.

 

[Aikouka]

I used to always let my opponent kill me, but after waiting for ten minutes while they try and figure out the most effective way to BM, I just concede.

I might have to do the same. I'll usually just sit there with the menu open, and if I see them highlight a single card (when there's lethal through minions on the board), I'll just concede.

Bad arena would be opening it up, seeing the 3 classes offered being the same 3 that would appear on a list of classes you'd least like to see, then after going 1-1 you see the next opponent as Trump.

Have you had that happen?

Speaking of Trump, maybe I ought to go watch a few more of his newer arena drafts, and maybe a few matches. I want to make sure that there aren't some cards that I'm over/undervaluing, or some overall poor gameplay habits that I need to work out. An example of that might be the obsession with playing something every turn.

 

[ewdotson]

Ugh, Arena can be the most frustrating thing in the world when you're up against decks that have an answer to everything that you do. Of course, it's even worse when you're kind enough to let the other player get the satisfaction of killing you, and the idiot sits there being cute about it by doing crap like killing all your minions first. :twisted:

In fairness, if they're killing your minions first or playing a bunch of extraneous minions, they *might* be working on a quest objective. So long as they do so fairly quickly and I'm not crunched for time, I don't mind them doing it. If they're going to take their sweet time about deciding what to do, I'll just concede.

 

[justoh]

Individual draft choices is one of the things that I'd like to record. Ultimately, it would be nice to be able to link to it and get opinions on what I could be doing better. Keeping track of card draw would be nice too. If I enter my cards into that arena tracker, I can click them off when I draw them, and it also reports draw chance for undrawn cards. That's what made that one warrior match painful where I had nothing worthwhile to play for turns 1-4. "6% chance to draw that one... 4% for that one... 7% for that one!? $@%^ YOU RNG!!"

arena value doesn't let you do that?

for example: