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Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
if you have a card like commanding shout, does the angry chicken "receive" damage even if it can go below 1 hp?

No. Enrage mechanics only activate when the minion is below its current maximum health, so the only way to activate the Angry Chicken enrage is to buff its health above the base value of 1 and then damage it.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
Ugh, so hate this game sometimes. After finishing Naxx, since I paid with gold to open every wing recently (I haven't spent a dime on the game). After that said and done, been doing arena again as I've been making gold the past few weeks. This is where I left off in hating the game and come back to it again.

1) doing daily quests for gold allows me to do an arena about once every 3 days or so. So the past few weeks I've had a few statistic to do.

2) Well most of the time I'm offered priest, warlock, and hunter as my three to chose from almost everytime. I was keeping tabs of my choices in an off the cuff manner, but out of about 14 or so arena attempts a good 9 of them I was only offered those three heroes. Which really are not the best heroes to be getting.

3) No matter what I pick the vast majority of my decks are critter heavy. I just don't really ever get offered spells. Even then, there are some good critters that would be wonderful in the right setup. But that's not what I get. Here tends to be my arena picks.

Start off with an epic selection of:
Doomsayer, Mudcrab, Mountain Giant (maybe murlock warleader and get offered no other murlocks)
My rare picks were almost always
Secret Keeper, Alarm O Bot, Angry chicken (I really got offered this set of three about 12 times in total with various arena drafts)
Other rare combination offers that were almost as bad and offered almost as much were
Mana Addict (with a deck that tends to not have many spells), Young Priestess, Light warden

Just basically shitty upon shitty rares at typically the normal rare draw spots. Not one offering of something decent to pick from most of the time. Actually all the time except once. As for normals it's been just as bleak. I have yet to be offered a chillwind yeti for example. Wisps, Magma Ragers, Elven Archers, and mostly just junk.

So I can't even put together a deck that would even win a single game. I play them out and go 0/3 because the decks are just that bad. Most of the time I have 3-6 spells and the rest of just bad critter cards.

Now I have had a few other hero choices, but out of those I have had mage once. With zero direct damage spells offered to chose from, no board clears, and I was offered Ice Block, along with doomsayer, and mud crab 8 times in the one time I was able to draft a mage deck. It was humorous the one game I drew all 8 ice blocks (of course I took those) in a row and went 8 turns without being able to be killed although it was only a delay of the inevitable. I got offered paladin a couple of times which I really don't like too much. I was offered the Rogue once with again almost no damage spells except shiv and conceal which was offered about 16 times or so. The first few were decent, everything else after that was just stupid.

I had shaman offered twice. First time I had junk. Reincarnate and Ancestral Healing with Dust Devil constantly offered. Those three as choices were almost offered every pick. In other words, it was a crappy shaman deck.

So in basically 13 out of 14 arena decks I was able to "play" not a single one of them would have won a single game. And they didn't. I went 0/3 with all but one deck.

So what deck didn't suck? Well the shaman deck I played last night. It wasn't "great" but it certainly was decent enough to win a few. This is basically what I had for my shaman deck.

3 Feral Wolves
Argent Commander
2 lightning storms
Fire Elemental
2 Stormforge axes
Illidan Stormrage (was offered with Lo Chowalker and Millhouse Manastorm)
Argent Defender
Sunwalker
2 Lava Burst
2 Lightning Bolt
Bloodlust
Forked Lightning
2 Windfury
Wild Pyromancer
Dwarven Loot Hoarder
Leper Gnome
Dark Iron Dwarf
Abusive Sargent
2 Dire Wolf Alphas
Silverhand Knight
Earthen Ring Farseer
Dragonling Mechanic

That was not the best deck, but for what I was getting in arena drafts, it was fantastic in comparison. This was a deck I could work with and make some wins.

Win I did. Won 3 in a row without too much trouble. Hell, when I got those 3 feral wolves in a row and then a bloodlust with windfury in my hand I was laughing so hard. It's a ridiculous setup to deal with that early on that can smash opponents and win the game by the 6th or 7th round. Which I proceeded to do a few times. So 3 easy wins turned into 5 even easier wins with the last two wins being complete stomping blowouts.

And then the arena gods smacked me back. I went up against what looked to me purely constructed decks. I lost the next 3 in a row and have no idea how the people I played against had the decks they had. First one was a warlock with damn near the COMPLETE handlock constructed setup. Twighlight drakes, Lord Jaraxuss, Cairne Bloodhoof, 2 faceless Manipulators, Alexstrasza, Sylvanna windrunner, Molten Giants, Leeroy, Loatheb, Shadowflames, Ragnaros, Hogger, Defenders, Soulfires, and Siphon Souls.

I swear it was almost the perfect handlock deck and it was hard to deal with. I got that handlock down to 2 hitpoints fast while still being able to deal with the giants that popped out somehow. I was barely handing on, but eventually the steam of my deck lost out to the handlock deck I went against arena. How the hell does someone get that deck in arena anyhow? I'm serious!!! t was damn near perfect!

So thinking it's a fluke, I go against a retarded mage deck afterwards. Burn, burn burn, burn, burn. Did I say burn?Again, legendaries like Hogger, Leeroy, and others were in his deck as well as like 6 fireballs and 10 frostbolts or something retarded like that. I was WTF is this shit????? When I say legendaries I mean almost all the same stupid legendaries in that damn handlock deck but just more burn.

I managed to get the mage down to about 6 before being crushed. it was seriously just far too overwhelming in having to deal with legendaries, with faceless manips, and the retarded duplicate secrets. That was all that deck was and it was stupid like the handlock.

So now I'm 5/2 and about to go out. So my 8th game I go against yet another perfectly constructed retarded warlock demon deck. Stacked with legendaries, epics, and all the good cards that just make one go wtf is this doing here???

So I ended up 5/3 with that shaman deck. I was almost htinking I could go at least 10 wins with that deck, but somehow people are doing constructed decks or something in arena right now. It's the only thing I can think of. I have never seen anyone do that previously in arena, and to see 3 decks like that in a row? Wow!
 
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Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
You're trying to tell us you played against an arena deck that not only had 8 legendaries, but played all 8 in a single game?

Riiiiiiiight.
 

Rhezuss

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2006
4,120
34
91
The past couple months were the worst for me rank wise. Couldn't get past rank 16...I sucked at everything.

Tried my own decks AND netdecking and nothing would go my way. Sure I switched back and forth a lot of times and didn't played much over 3 games with a single deck.

Bad draws was my bane for september and october when any other months I was god at top decking lol, I knew it couldn't last

Makes me want to quit this freaking game...but I know I can do better...

My last Warrior deck:

2X Execute (1)
2X Whirlwind (1)
1X Cleave (2)
2X Instable Ghoul (2) - cool synergy with Frothing Berserker
2X Wild Pyromancer (2) - same as the ghoul
2X Armorsmith (2)
2X Cruel Taskmaster (2)
2X Fiery Waraxe (2)
2X Shield Block (3)
2X Frothing Berserker (3)
1X Mortal Strike (4)
2X Kor'Kron Elite (4)
2X Death's Bite (4)
1X Brawl (5)
2X Sludge Belcher (5)
1X The Black Knight* (6)
1X Gorehowl (7)
1X Grommash Hellscream* (8)

Sometimes it work wonders, like when my Frothing Berserker can stay alive, I once boosted him to 23 attack but couldn't get rid of the damn taunter that was blocking my way to my opponent face. What i'll do is replace 2 cards with 1 Ironbeak Howl and 1 Spellbreaker for some silence sweetness, maybe remove 1 Pyro and 1 Ghoul...or the 2 Ghouls...

But I really want to be good with the Warrior and I think I rely too much on the Frothing Berserker to work...there's some useful tools in the deck but I often find myself lacking the proper removals to counter my opponent.

I suck!
 
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darkewaffle

Diamond Member
Oct 7, 2005
8,152
1
81
Shield Slam is one of Warrior's best removals if you find you can keep your armor up, I would definitely look at including it.
 

Rhezuss

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2006
4,120
34
91
Shield Slam is one of Warrior's best removals if you find you can keep your armor up, I would definitely look at including it.

Yeah good point!
I think i'm gonna keep only 1 Wild Pyro since it might be very situational. I'll also remove the Ghouls I think, again, too situational for what they do. While we're at it, Frothing Berserker might go on vacation.

I'll try to had some more tools and removals like Harrison Jones, Ysera, Baron Geddon?!?, Loatheb?, Acolyte of Pain, Sylvanas?!? Damn too much ideas lol.

2X Execute (1)
2X Whirlwind (1)
2X Shield Slam (1)
1X Cleave (2)
2X Armorsmith (2)
2X Cruel Taskmaster (2)
2X Fiery Waraxe (2)
2X Shield Block (3)
1X Spellbreaker (4)
1X Mortal Strike (4)
2X Kor'Kron Elite (4)
2X Death's Bite (4)
1X Harrison Jones* (5)
1X Brawl (5)
1X Loatheb* (5)
2X Sludge Belcher (5)
1X Sylvanas* (5)
1X The Black Knight* (6)
1X Grommash Hellscream* (8)
1X Ysera* (9)

Something like that...
 
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Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
Yeah good point!
I think i'm gonna keep only 1 Wild Pyro since it might be very situational. I'll also remove the Ghouls I think, again, too situational for what they do. While we're at it, Frothing Berserker might go on vacation.

I'll try to had some more tools and removals like Harrison Jones, Ysera, Baron Geddon?!?, Loatheb?, Acolyte of Pain, Sylvanas?!? Damn too much ideas lol.

2X Execute (1)
2X Whirlwind (1)
2X Shield Slam (1)
1X Cleave (2)
2X Armorsmith (2)
2X Cruel Taskmaster (2)
2X Fiery Waraxe (2)
2X Shield Block (3)
1X Spellbreaker (4)
1X Mortal Strike (4)
2X Kor'Kron Elite (4)
2X Death's Bite (4)
1X Harrison Jones (5)
1X Brawl (5)
1X Loatheb (5)
2X Sludge Belcher (5)
1X Sylvanas (5)
1X The Black Knight* (6)
1X Grommash Hellscream* (8)
1X Ysera (9)

Something like that...

I would remove mortal strike,1 whirlwind (you already have enough of this type effect with death's bite). If you have alexstraza she's awesome in this type of deck, because you basically just keep wiping the board until T9 when you set your opponent from 30 to 15. Ragnaros and Grom after alex goes down are great finishers.

Geddon is great if you're facing zoo a lot, you can swap out harrison jones for that. You should put an acolyte of pain or 2 in as well.
 

Rhezuss

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2006
4,120
34
91
I would remove mortal strike,1 whirlwind (you already have enough of this type effect with death's bite). If you have alexstraza she's awesome in this type of deck, because you basically just keep wiping the board until T9 when you set your opponent from 30 to 15. Ragnaros and Grom after alex goes down are great finishers.

Geddon is great if you're facing zoo a lot, you can swap out harrison jones for that. You should put an acolyte of pain or 2 in as well.

I could remove the 2 Kor'Krons for Alex + Geddon...
 

Rhezuss

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2006
4,120
34
91
And I HAVE to try a deck around Angry Chicken...

I remember when I made a Paladin/Pirate deck with every Pirates I had at the time + Sword of Justice x2 and Truesilver Champion x1 + Tirion (for the sword). Worked great in lower ranks and that was way before Naxx.

I think i'm due for a silly deck. Maybe try the Druid 20+ Legendaries + Alarm-o-bot...
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
And I HAVE to try a deck around Angry Chicken...

I remember when I made a Paladin/Pirate deck with every Pirates I had at the time + Sword of Justice x2 and Truesilver Champion x1 + Tirion (for the sword). Worked great in lower ranks and that was way before Naxx.

I think i'm due for a silly deck. Maybe try the Druid 20+ Legendaries + Alarm-o-bot...

Try this priest, it is hilarious:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/104164-9-4-priest-china
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
You're trying to tell us you played against an arena deck that not only had 8 legendaries, but played all 8 in a single game?

Riiiiiiiight.

Yes. That is exactly what happened. I was just as incredulous as you were.

That first warlock opened with a twighlight drake after tapping for a full hand. Beat down the drake and started beating him down. He pops a hogger, and then a cairne. I beat them both down and proceed to beat him. He siphon souls a few of my guys, pops another drake with only a few cards in hand and blows what I have on the board with a soulfire on the drake to buy him time. He plops a leeroy, which I eat and then kill. I beat him down with a windfury argent command and a dire wolves. I get him down to 2 hitpoints and he pops back up with Alex. Alex was a bitch to clear, and then he pops down Rag. Again, another bitch to clear. I manage to plink him down to 1 hp again while being lot myself. He then drops a molten, faceless manip and argent defender in one round. I have some taunters holding me, but I can't clear them. Next round he just pops down Jaraxuss and clears everything I have on my side. Then he does another faceless manip on the molten and sits for 1 round while he could lethal me. It was done on purpose so the next round he could show me he also had Rag to play and did that.

It was a legendary stacked arena deck. And as I said, I ran into 3 legendary/epic stack decks 3 times in a row last night. It was fucking retarded and I have no idea how that happened.
 

Kev

Lifer
Dec 17, 2001
16,367
4
81
The deck you described has lower odds of occuring than being struck by lightning on the way to picking up your powerball winnings.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
The deck you described has lower odds of occuring than being struck by lightning on the way to picking up your powerball winnings.

No shit. That was why I was wondering if someone found a cheat or a hack or something. It was that outrageous.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
Another night and another arena draft suckage. This time I was able to at least pick mage, but this time I recorded the shitty cards I was offered. Did the best I could. I had a couple of decent cards, but overall mostly junk. Ended up going 1/3 but only because I went up against a horrible cleric deck that had even worse cards than me. The other 3 decks clobbered me as my deck literally stood no chance against them. At least there was only one deck with a legendary I went against tonight and they had the black knight. Still the others were full of good epics, rares, normals, and good spells. Just complete domination against my shitty draft deck. Normally I don't even bother playing such a deck. Waste of time really.

Here is the youtube video of the draft tonight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCRzDhPB2Po&feature=youtu.be
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
Another night and another arena draft suckage. This time I was able to at least pick mage, but this time I recorded the shitty cards I was offered. Did the best I could. I had a couple of decent cards, but overall mostly junk. Ended up going 1/3 but only because I went up against a horrible cleric deck that had even worse cards than me. The other 3 decks clobbered me as my deck literally stood no chance against them. At least there was only one deck with a legendary I went against tonight and they had the black knight. Still the others were full of good epics, rares, normals, and good spells. Just complete domination against my shitty draft deck. Normally I don't even bother playing such a deck. Waste of time really.

Here is the youtube video of the draft tonight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCRzDhPB2Po&feature=youtu.be

I've provided a pick-by-pick critique of your draft.

1 - Good.
2 - Panther would have been better. Wolfrider is essentially just a 3 damage nuke for 3 mana, which is occasionally useful for some classes, but as a Mage it is massively outclassed by Frostbolt and Fireball.
3 - Good.
4 - Argus is good, but Emperor Cobra is probably the safer pick here. Argus can very rarely be played on curve (i.e. on turn 4), and in many games you will struggle to find a good spot to play him at all. His value rises greatly if you have a strong early/mid game deck already, or cards that greatly benefit from being taunted (giants, ogres, etc). It's somewhat of a toss up, since they can both provide great value.
5 - Good.
6 - Good.
7 - Bad bad bad. Ice lance is a terrible arena card, especially taking it this early before you even have a single spell that freezes anything. Sorcerer's Apprentice is a top tier 2-drop, and you don't have any 2-drop's so far either (I don't count Kobold, he really should be used as a combo card whenever possible since he will trade unfavorably with many other 2-drops and almost all 3-drops).
8 - Baaaaad. I love me some Yeti as much as the next guy, and there are very few cards I will take over it, but Flamestrike is one of them (the first one, at least).
9 - Good.
10 - This may be the worst decision you made up to this point. Sea Giant is an amazing arena card. Because arena is inherently minion heavy, boards are quite often filled up, and it is very easy to get that Sea Giant out for 6 or less mana, often times right on curve as well. Spellbender on the other hand, is one of the worst arena cards. There will be many games where it will never even trigger, and even when it does the effect is unreliable. Its less bad than Hungry Crab, but this pick was a no brainer for Sea Giant, all day every day.
11 - Good.
12 - Argent Squire can be decent for some classes, but as a Mage you have no buffs or other synergies to take advantage of. It's not the worst card, but once again you are staring at a premium 2-drop in the Ooze, while you have no real 2-drops in your deck, and you pass on it. Ooze is valuable simply for its 3/2 stats against non-weapon classes, but Paladin and Rogue are very common arena classes and Ooze can be a game changer in those matchups.
13 - Good.
14 - Good.
15 - Another wolf rider, and again you take an inferior card over a solid 2-drop with still none in your deck. This is an alarming pattern. I would also have taken a second mana wyrm over a second wolfrider, but you really should have taken the Brewmaster here.
16 - This is a bit ticky-tacky, but you generally want to take a plain 3/2 (Raptor) over a plain 2/3 (Crocolisk). Its more likely to trade favorably, and is slightly less useless if you draw it late in a match.
17 - Good.
18 - Good.
19 - Mana Wraith is a tricky card to get value out of, and your deck to this point looks more likely to be harmed by it than benefitted. You have very few low cost minions, which means if you play Mana Wraith on turn 2, you are almost definitely going to be unable to play anything the following turn, and very possibly not until turn 4. Wailing Soul is nothing special, but it has solid stats for a 4-drop, and the silence from the battlecry is usually a lot less difficult to play around than it might initially seem.
20 - Molten Giant is a very bad arena card, especially for a class with no weapons and no heals. It gets a bit of a bump in value due to you already having an Argus in the deck, but thats 1 Giant and 1 Argus, which will very rarely be in your hand together at the right time. You have no synergy with Echoing Ooze, but you are now 2/3 of the way through your draft and still have only 1 true 2-drop. The Ooze can be dropped on turn 2 with no issue, it provides 2/4 worth of stats, and even if all it does is trade into your opponents 2-drop, thats fine.
21 - Good.
22 - Good. You could have taken the Sunfury here as well to increase the odds that you can actually taunt up that Molten Giant in some games, but Knife Juggler is a top tier 2-drop and rarely a bad pick.
23 - Good.
24 - Good.
25 - Good.
26 - Good.
27 - I would have taken the Scarlet Crusader here. Its a premium 3-drop, and you are very lacking in good early game minions. Duplicate can occasionally be amazing, but more often than not it ends up sitting dead in your hand for a long time, and then costs too much tempo when you do play it.
28 - Good.
29 - Ice Lance is bad. You have only 1 reliable way to freeze your opponent, and ideally you are using that Frostbolt to kill off an early minion rather than to combo it with Ice Lance late in the game. As a general rule, just stay far away from Ice Lance under all circumstances. You passed up an Acolyte of Pain for it as well, which makes this pick that much worse. Card draw is at a premium in arena, most of the time you will get very few chances to take any card draw at all. Your draft is essentially over at this point, and your only card draw mechanic is one Loot Hoarder and one Gnomish Inventor. This is a no brainer pick for the Acolyte.
30 - Good.


Overall, I have to agree that you were offered a pretty poor selection. No fireballs, no polymorphs, no arcane intellects. But you were also offered many great cards - 1 blizzard, 2 flamestrikes, 2 water elementals, 1 frostbolt, 1 sorc apprentice - some of which you didn't take. In addition, you were given quite a few good to great neutral cards, some of which you passed on as well.

You mucked it up pretty bad with your card picks though. The individual explanations are all above, but the end result is that you ended up with a deck that has an extremely low mana curve (you don't have a single 5 or 6 drop) and very limited card draw, basically ensuring that you will lose most matches on card advantage alone. The high number of simply inferior cards will ensure that you lose the rest.

I re-drafted using the card choices you were given, and this is the deck I ended up with:

http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilde...1;523:1;542:1;576:1;589:1;604:1;614:1;7758:1;

You'll notice I didn't always make the choice I suggest in my comments above, which is because my comments are based on your deck, whereas some of my later picks are based on the deck I've drafted to that point. Of particular note is that I kept the Molten Giant, despite how bad it is. This is because by the time that pick came up, because I had picked up so many more 2-drops than you had up to that point, and seeing that the deck had almost no minions above 4 mana cost, the Molten Giant was now more valuable than the Echoing Ooze. Additionally, a few picks later, I opt to take a Frostwolf Warlord over another 2-drop (Faerie Dragon I think it was) - again, this is only the correct choice now because I picked up strong 2-drops earlier in the draft, and with so little late game in the deck, Frostwolf made more sense than another 2-drop.

This deck is stronger in all phases of the game. It has better early game minions (Apprentice, Raptor, Brewmaster, Ooze, Panther, extra Scarlet Crusader), it has more late game minions (Sea Giant, Frostwolf Warlord), it has more board clear (extra Flamestrike), it has more card draw (Acolyte of Pain), and it can more reliably combo the giants with taunters (2 giants and 2 taunters).

Will it get to 12 wins? Almost certainly not. But it should get to 5+ pretty easily.


Drafting properly is half the battle in arena, and it seems like you need quite a bit of help in that area. Bad luck happens, but even the worst drafts can produce a capable deck. I haven't drafted a 1-win (or worse) deck in weeks, and even on those rare occasions where I end with 0-2 wins, its usually a combination of a really bad deck AND really good opponents.
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
I've provided a pick-by-pick critique of your draft.


Overall, I have to agree that you were offered a pretty poor selection. No fireballs, no polymorphs, no arcane intellects. But you were also offered many great cards - 1 blizzard, 2 flamestrikes, 2 water elementals, 1 frostbolt, 1 sorc apprentice - some of which you didn't take. In addition, you were given quite a few good to great neutral cards, some of which you passed on as well.

You mucked it up pretty bad with your card picks though. The individual explanations are all above, but the end result is that you ended up with a deck that has an extremely low mana curve (you don't have a single 5 or 6 drop) and very limited card draw, basically ensuring that you will lose most matches on card advantage alone. The high number of simply inferior cards will ensure that you lose the rest.

I re-drafted using the card choices you were given, and this is the deck I ended up with:

http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilde...1;523:1;542:1;576:1;589:1;604:1;614:1;7758:1;

You'll notice I didn't always make the choice I suggest in my comments above, which is because my comments are based on your deck, whereas some of my later picks are based on the deck I've drafted to that point. Of particular note is that I kept the Molten Giant, despite how bad it is. This is because by the time that pick came up, because I had picked up so many more 2-drops than you had up to that point, and seeing that the deck had almost no minions above 4 mana cost, the Molten Giant was now more valuable than the Echoing Ooze. Additionally, a few picks later, I opt to take a Frostwolf Warlord over another 2-drop (Faerie Dragon I think it was) - again, this is only the correct choice now because I picked up strong 2-drops earlier in the draft, and with so little late game in the deck, Frostwolf made more sense than another 2-drop.

This deck is stronger in all phases of the game. It has better early game minions (Apprentice, Raptor, Brewmaster, Ooze, Panther, extra Scarlet Crusader), it has more late game minions (Sea Giant, Frostwolf Warlord), it has more board clear (extra Flamestrike), it has more card draw (Acolyte of Pain), and it can more reliably combo the giants with taunters (2 giants and 2 taunters).

Will it get to 12 wins? Almost certainly not. But it should get to 5+ pretty easily.


Drafting properly is half the battle in arena, and it seems like you need quite a bit of help in that area. Bad luck happens, but even the worst drafts can produce a capable deck. I haven't drafted a 1-win (or worse) deck in weeks, and even on those rare occasions where I end with 0-2 wins, its usually a combination of a really bad deck AND really good opponents.

Some of what I picked, such as the ice lance, was because I know how the draft is going to go usually based on the first 4-5 offerings. If as a mage I don't get a fireball or frostbost offered early, I almost never get them offered. In fact, I was offered ice lance 3 times, and the ice lance doubling actually got me the only win I had strangely enough along with the molten giant.

Let me go back and show you why I decided what I did.

When making early selection, I prefer wolf rider over panther due to it being an easy trade or nuke for 3 mana. It's basically a frost bolt that costs one more mana early game. Which as I said, when I am not offered any frostbolt or fireballs early, I will take that wolf rider over the panther every day. Although it was the second pick, I have won 12 wins with a solid mage agro nuke deck and was hoping I would get lucky again with such a deck. Just didn't happen.

I was torn between argus and emp cobra. Why I tend to favor argus is due to lack of taunts I usually get in arena drafts. If you look that is basically all but one grunt I was offered as a taunt. Emp cobra is nice, but easily cleared from the board when you need it. Emp cobras are nice when you either taunt it up or give it charge late game. Early game it's a waste of power potential unless playing.

For the ice lance over the sorc apprentice, I hadn't been offered a spell yet if you noticed in the first 7 offerings. That's almost a third of my deck with no spells and luke warm critter offerings up until then. The ice lance is basically a oh shit I can hold them card and the sorc apprentice, while a very nice card, is just another critter at this point to me that doesn't offer that much potential in a deck with no spells.

Flamestrike over yeti, again I had more cards to syngery a bit with the yeti and was sitll hoping for some spell offerings eventually at that point. Argus and yeti/water elemental is a very nice setup mid game. Flamestrike is something that is nice, but if I can't live until round 7 doesn't help me much. Which in the three losses I had, I only made it to round 7 once to use the single flamestrike I did get. That was how badly I was trounced.

Brew master over wolf rider. I was thinking that, but went with wolf rider as I explained earlier as a frost bolt that costs me one more since I was low on any form of control at that point. I had been offered only 3 spells, of which was ice lance, a secret, and flame strike. I got the ice lance, but not the flamestrike. The youthful brewmaster would be nice for a popping defender back into my hand, but over all it didn't synergize with anything else I had been offered.

I picked the spell bender mainly due to the spell selection I had been offered up until this point. Sea giant I've tried in arena and don't get it out often enough. Arena tends to be minion heavy as you stated, but it's often minion trading heavy in my experience all the time. Rarely do I see a board filled with minions in arena until late game when sea giant isn't really as strong as it would be early. Spell bender as you said was junk, but as a secret, it's power isn't too bad, and it adds value as a secret in making the opponent have to try to outthink what you just played. I find a secret can change the actions of the opponent in your favor by the very nature that there is a secret waiting for their action.

Argent I went for because while I had some 2-4 drops, I had no single drops. Ooze is a nice card and it was a tough choice, but I looked at the curve I had, and selected based on that. Argent isn't meant for synergy, it's meant as a nice first turn drop if I can get lucky to have it.

Raptor over croc, that again was something I Was thinking over. Went for the crock to have a balance to the wolf riders of something that can stay on the board a little longer.

Molten was picked because at this point, I realized my deck was going to be hammered hard early game since I have zero damage spells and little minion control. Any deck I go against with some control or decent spells is going to hit me hard early. If I had more control I wouldn't have picked the molten. It was at that point a realization that if I am hammered early, I might get lucky and place something on the board in time to stop the hemorrhaging early enough to do something about it.

The rest of the bad picks were realizing I'm now 25 cards in with shit offered to me and not really caring as much anymore.

I had mostly 2-4 mana play cards with a couple bigger. But if you check, I wasn't offered much that costs more than 4 that was worthwhile that I didn't pick except the second flame strike and sea giant and a war golem I guess.


Funny thing about hindsight is 20/20 on some of those picks. Even with your redrafted picks, the deck would have been one to get crushed in most arena matchups that I see. Unless you get lucky to play against someone else that had a similarly bad offering of cards.

Next time I'll record the draft and the matches. The matches of what I see and go up against should be more enlightening. I would be nice if I went up against decks with similar card offering problems. But that for me seems to be the rarer case.

Also I have to point out, for most of the draft, you agreed with what I picked in over 20 choices. A few were tit-for-tat choices that hardly matter and are more playstyle preference difference, and there were a couple you would have chosen thinking were the better choices which amounted to about 5 or so cards. 5 or so cards isn't going to win arena matches more often. The point being is that is probably one of the better and above average offerings I get for my arena decks. 9 times out of 10 then are much worse offerings.
 
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HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,667
440
126
Humble, have you tried something like ArenaValue to help pick you deck?

Yes. I have done the tried and true of looking at the arena "pick" suggestions and always taking the "best" of the available offered cards. Far too often I still lose mainly because what I am offered is complete crap that doesn't synergize well.

I was trying to point out I was offered a mage deck above with only the following spells offered:

Flamestrike (not initially taken)
Arcane Missiles (taken)
Mirror Image/Iceblock (mirror taken)
Mirror Image/Ice Lance (lance taken)
Spellbender
Arcane explosion (didn't take)
Flamestrike/Frozen Wave (Flamestrike taken)
Frost bolt
Duplicate
Cone of Cold
Ice Lance

Basically 11 potential spells out of 30 which is not bad on the surface, but over all the spells offered are pretty bad. My experience is quality control, clearing, or buffing spells make or break arena decks just like constructed decks. Most of those spells offered are junk and in many cases the alternative offered at the same time were just as bad with a few exceptions such sorc apprentice over that initial ice lance and sea giant possibly better than spell bender.

With only 1 frost bolt, no fireballs, no polymorphs, and crap mostly offered in the first 20 is card offerings, I just get frustrated and don't tend to care about my last 10 picks. If the first 20 are mostly junk enough to not win by, then last 10 aren't going to help has been what I've seen.
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
Some of what I picked, such as the ice lance, was because I know how the draft is going to go usually based on the first 4-5 offerings. If as a mage I don't get a fireball or frostbost offered early, I almost never get them offered. In fact, I was offered ice lance 3 times, and the ice lance doubling actually got me the only win I had strangely enough along with the molten giant.

There is really no point to thinking like this, it will only cause you problems, like it did in this draft. There is no magical formula for determining what card choices you are going to be offered. There is no information to be garnered by analyzing the first 10 card sets you get offered - you are just as likely to be offered 2 frostbolts and 3 fireballs within the first 10 card sets as you are to be offered those choices in the last 10 sets.

Let me go back and show you why I decided what I did.

When making early selection, I prefer wolf rider over panther due to it being an easy trade or nuke for 3 mana. It's basically a frost bolt that costs one more mana early game. Which as I said, when I am not offered any frostbolt or fireballs early, I will take that wolf rider over the panther every day. Although it was the second pick, I have won 12 wins with a solid mage agro nuke deck and was hoping I would get lucky again with such a deck. Just didn't happen.

It'll probably never happen again. Don't draft towards a goal, especially early. Just take the best card, every time, with some consideration going towards your mana curve or possible synergies when debating between cards of relatively equal value.

I was torn between argus and emp cobra. Why I tend to favor argus is due to lack of taunts I usually get in arena drafts. If you look that is basically all but one grunt I was offered as a taunt. Emp cobra is nice, but easily cleared from the board when you need it. Emp cobras are nice when you either taunt it up or give it charge late game. Early game it's a waste of power potential unless playing.

For the ice lance over the sorc apprentice, I hadn't been offered a spell yet if you noticed in the first 7 offerings. That's almost a third of my deck with no spells and luke warm critter offerings up until then. The ice lance is basically a oh shit I can hold them card and the sorc apprentice, while a very nice card, is just another critter at this point to me that doesn't offer that much potential in a deck with no spells.

Again, there is no point in thinking like that. You are a mage, the chances of not getting a good number of spells is next to zero. Will it happen every once in a while? Yes. But why bet against the odds? Even if you don't get many spells (or many good ones anyways), every deck needs 2-drops, and no deck needs Ice Lance. Ever. It feels like you are trying to draft 'not the worst deck possible' by covering up perceived weaknesses in the deck before they even exist. But that is exactly what is creating the bad deck. Just pick the best card early.

Flamestrike over yeti, again I had more cards to syngery a bit with the yeti and was sitll hoping for some spell offerings eventually at that point. Argus and yeti/water elemental is a very nice setup mid game. Flamestrike is something that is nice, but if I can't live until round 7 doesn't help me much. Which in the three losses I had, I only made it to round 7 once to use the single flamestrike I did get. That was how badly I was trounced.

Why are you thinking about whether your deck can survive to turn 7 when you're only 8 cards into your draft? You should always assume that any deck you draft can survive that long. If you are consistently losing the majority of your games before turn 7, then the problem isn't that you drafted a Flamestrike.

Why bother thinking about a yeti/water ele/argus combo? That's a 3-card 3-turn combo starting on turn 4 (turn 3 if you have the coin), which leaves you with no mana to cast anything else during this time except a hero power on the final turn. Thats insane. The probability of having those cards in your hand, being able to cast them in that order, your opponent not doing anything to stop it, AND that exact order of play actually being the best possible moves you can do - its so slim its not even worth considering. Stop overthinking it and just take the best card.

Brew master over wolf rider. I was thinking that, but went with wolf rider as I explained earlier as a frost bolt that costs me one more since I was low on any form of control at that point. I had been offered only 3 spells, of which was ice lance, a secret, and flame strike. I got the ice lance, but not the flamestrike. The youthful brewmaster would be nice for a popping defender back into my hand, but over all it didn't synergize with anything else I had been offered.

It doesn't have to synergize. It's main purpose in arena is just to be a 2-drop, something you were in desperate need of at this point in the draft. You don't need 3 damage nukes in your deck. You do need 2-drops.

I picked the spell bender mainly due to the spell selection I had been offered up until this point. Sea giant I've tried in arena and don't get it out often enough. Arena tends to be minion heavy as you stated, but it's often minion trading heavy in my experience all the time. Rarely do I see a board filled with minions in arena until late game when sea giant isn't really as strong as it would be early. Spell bender as you said was junk, but as a secret, it's power isn't too bad, and it adds value as a secret in making the opponent have to try to outthink what you just played. I find a secret can change the actions of the opponent in your favor by the very nature that there is a secret waiting for their action.

Spellbender is very bad. Arena is about board control, and spellbender does not deliver. Making your opponent guess at which secret you played sometimes gives value, sometimes doesn't. Spellbender might get triggered, it might not. It might block a spell worth more than 3 mana, it might not. It might trigger on a powerful buff and give really good value, or it might trigger on a holy smite and provide almost no value.

The point is its not consistent. It has no immediate impact on the board, and it takes all of 2-3 actions for your opponent to figure out what it is, which he may have been about to perform anyways. Throwing an 8/8 on the board, at any point in the game, will do more to disrupt your opponents plans than spellbender ever will.

Argent I went for because while I had some 2-4 drops, I had no single drops. Ooze is a nice card and it was a tough choice, but I looked at the curve I had, and selected based on that. Argent isn't meant for synergy, it's meant as a nice first turn drop if I can get lucky to have it.

Your curve dictated that you should have taken the Ooze. The only 2-drop you had at the time was Kobold Geomancer, which isn't really a 2-drop. At least not one you want to be forced into playing. A good 1-drop can be nice, but it isn't necessary. No decks needs a 1-drop. Every deck needs 2-drops.

Raptor over croc, that again was something I Was thinking over. Went for the crock to have a balance to the wolf riders of something that can stay on the board a little longer.

Molten was picked because at this point, I realized my deck was going to be hammered hard early game since I have zero damage spells and little minion control. Any deck I go against with some control or decent spells is going to hit me hard early. If I had more control I wouldn't have picked the molten. It was at that point a realization that if I am hammered early, I might get lucky and place something on the board in time to stop the hemorrhaging early enough to do something about it.

You had little minion control early because you kept passing on it. At this point in my re-draft I had more than enough 2-drops to justify not even taking a second look at the Echoing Ooze. But your logic is flawed anyways. You say you are worried about your weak early game, and instead of grabbing that nice 2-drop minion that can keep you in the game before it gets out of hand, you grab the one that might bail you out after you've already lost control of the board. If you are losing that badly, Molten Giant will not save you. A smart player with board control will just keep going for your face and ignore it, knowing it can only chip away at their board one minion at a time.

The rest of the bad picks were realizing I'm now 25 cards in with shit offered to me and not really caring as much anymore.

I had mostly 2-4 mana play cards with a couple bigger. But if you check, I wasn't offered much that costs more than 4 that was worthwhile that I didn't pick except the second flame strike and sea giant and a war golem I guess.

No you weren't offered a lot of big cards. Even in my re-draft I only picked up two extra minions above 4 mana cost. Thats just how it works out sometimes. But even these decks can win games.

Funny thing about hindsight is 20/20 on some of those picks. Even with your redrafted picks, the deck would have been one to get crushed in most arena matchups that I see. Unless you get lucky to play against someone else that had a similarly bad offering of cards.

Next time I'll record the draft and the matches. The matches of what I see and go up against should be more enlightening. I would be nice if I went up against decks with similar card offering problems. But that for me seems to be the rarer case.

It's not a bad deck. It's not a 12 win deck, but its not bad. The minion quality is high. The spell quality is high. It will win some games simply by controlling the board early and keeping the pressure on with an endless stream of minions and some well placed Flamestrikes. The mana curve is what will hold it back though. Even with the Acolyte that I added, there is not enough card draw to sustain so many low cost cards, and this is not a deck that you want to get into top-deck wars with.

Also I have to point out, for most of the draft, you agreed with what I picked in over 20 choices. A few were tit-for-tat choices that hardly matter and are more playstyle preference difference, and there were a couple you would have chosen thinking were the better choices which amounted to about 5 or so cards. 5 or so cards isn't going to win arena matches more often. The point being is that is probably one of the better and above average offerings I get for my arena decks. 9 times out of 10 then are much worse offerings.

I can't even think of strong enough words to describe how much I disagree with this statement. Every single card matters, especially when you are choosing Spellbender over Sea Giant. I am not surprised in the least that the deck you drafted went 1-3. But I am telling you with certainty that I could get a bare minimum of 3 wins with the deck I drafted, and I would have high confidence in it making it to 5+ wins. I've taken worse decks further than that.

As for this being a representative sample of what your drafts are like, I don't really know what to tell you. The draft wasn't that bad. Almost every card in the deck I drafted would fall in the 'above average' category for me. The lack of fireballs and polymorphs sucks, but they aren't a requirement for a good deck. I just finished a run with a Druid deck that went 10-3, it had no Swipes, no Wrath, no Druid of the Claw, no Ancient of Lore, no Ancient of War, no Keeper of the Grove, it had no legendary's. What it did have was 3 Power of the Wild, 2 Ironbark, 1 Starfire, 1 Starfall, 1 Force of Nature, and 1 Savage Roar. This is how arena goes. You never get everything, but you always get something.
 
Last edited:

Aikouka

Lifer
Nov 27, 2001
30,383
912
126
You definitely don't need a great deck to get a lot of wins. Although, it definitely helps if you're playing against sub-par opponents or people with weak decks.

I went 11-3 with this deck. It certainly has some great cards, but it also has a few weak ones that I would have preferred a better option:
Argent Squire
Mana Wyrm (2)
Acidic Swamp Ooze (2)
Haunted Creeper
Loot hoarder
Youthful Brewmaster
Arcane Intellect
Emperor Cobra
Harvest Golem
Mirror Entity
Razorfen Hunter
Ancient Mage
Cone of Cold
Dragonling Mechanic
Fireball (2)
Polymorph
Sen'jin Shieldmasta
Spellbreaker
Water Elemental (2)
Abomination
Darkscale Healer
Silver Hand Knight
Sludge Belcher
Blizzard
Flamestrike (2)

I actually should've won the last game, but I blew my Polymorph way too soon. Well, actually... the issue was that I blew it without a real reason to do so. It would've been fine if I had the aggression to match it, but I was practically running on E at that point!

I went 5-3 with this similar deck. Amusingly enough, it was 5 straight wins and 3 straight losses.
Leper Gnome
Undertaker
Acidic Swamp Ooze
Amani Berserker
Dire Wolf Alpha
Frostbolt
Haunted Creeper
Sorcerer's Apprentice
Unstable Ghoul
Arcane Intellect
Counterspell
Emperor Cobra
Imp Master
Ironforge Rifleman
Mirror Entity
Raging Worgen
Razorfen Hunter
Ancient Brewmaster
Cult Master
Ethereal Arcanist
Fireball
Twilight Drake
Wailing Soul
Gurubashi Berserker
Spectral Knight
Venture Co. Mercenary
Boulderfist Ogre
Frost Elemental
Flamestrike (2)

One thing that I've wondered about is that people suggest that you always play against someone at the same score as you. Although, when I'm up around 7-10 and I reach someone that's just awful, it makes me question whether that's true or that person was just really lucky to make it that far.

10 - This may be the worst decision you made up to this point. Sea Giant is an amazing arena card. Because arena is inherently minion heavy, boards are quite often filled up, and it is very easy to get that Sea Giant out for 6 or less mana, often times right on curve as well. Spellbender on the other hand, is one of the worst arena cards. There will be many games where it will never even trigger, and even when it does the effect is unreliable. Its less bad than Hungry Crab, but this pick was a no brainer for Sea Giant, all day every day.

I was actually a bit confused with the Sea Giant. I was watching Trump the other day, and he seemed a bit disenchanted with the Sea Giant. I think he was drafting a Rogue and he got his third epic pick. He remarked that most epics aren't all that good, and Druids are one of the few classes that have more worthwhile epics. However, then I saw the link to Trump's Arena list, and he actually ranks Sea Giant quite well. Although, the list appears to be pretty old since it doesn't include Naxxramas cards, and it refers to "recent nerfs" on cards that got nerfed awhile ago.

Sea Giant's worth tends to be a little variable to me. In some of my games, there aren't all that many minions on the board, but in others, the Sea Giant is easy to get out. Although, you could say that as long as there are three minions on the board, he's pretty decent value (7-cost 8/8).

Although, thinking about that makes me wonder... why don't we see Sea Giants more often in Hunter decks? Imagine playing Unleash the Hounds and then using a Sea Giant. The only downside that I can think of is that's incredibly reliant upon your luck to draw those cards without too much time in between.
 

Wardawg1001

Senior member
Sep 4, 2008
653
1
81
One thing that I've wondered about is that people suggest that you always play against someone at the same score as you. Although, when I'm up around 7-10 and I reach someone that's just awful, it makes me question whether that's true or that person was just really lucky to make it that far.

You don't always play someone the exact same score as you. I've had numerous occasions where I play the same opponent back to back at 9 wins and above. It tries to match you with someone the same score but if it doesn't find a match quickly it will expand to looser requirements. Obviously the higher up you go in wins, the less players there are available, so it becomes more and more likely that you will end up playing someone who isn't at your exact same score.

I was actually a bit confused with the Sea Giant. I was watching Trump the other day, and he seemed a bit disenchanted with the Sea Giant. I think he was drafting a Rogue and he got his third epic pick. He remarked that most epics aren't all that good, and Druids are one of the few classes that have more worthwhile epics. However, then I saw the link to Trump's Arena list, and he actually ranks Sea Giant quite well. Although, the list appears to be pretty old since it doesn't include Naxxramas cards, and it refers to "recent nerfs" on cards that got nerfed awhile ago.

Sea Giant's worth tends to be a little variable to me. In some of my games, there aren't all that many minions on the board, but in others, the Sea Giant is easy to get out. Although, you could say that as long as there are three minions on the board, he's pretty decent value (7-cost 8/8).

Well you hit right at the heart of it really - most epics just aren't very good. They are either highly situational, or only useful as part of an organized strategy or combo. Sea Giant is easily the best of the giants, if only because he can't get stuck dead in your hand.

Mountain Giant is the worst, since board control and tempo are so important in arena, trying to stash your cards in hopes to cast a cheap Mountain Giant is almost always going to bite you in the ass. But if you don't get him out early, you probably never will, since the vast majority of arena decks are relatively low mana curve and don't have dependable card draw. It's not unlikely that by turn 6-7 you'll be down to just 3-4 cards in your hand, and it only gets smaller from there.

Molten Giant is a bit more dependable, since you can almost always count on taking some amount of damage. The problem is that most good arena players fight tooth and nail over board control rather than going to the face, so a lot of the time you will end up in a situation where you can't cast the Molten Giant until you've already lost control of the board, and without a way to taunt him up, the most he can do for you is to kill 1 minion every turn. Usually its just too little too late. Classes with weapons or other ways to damage themselves (e.g. Warlock) can get more consistent use out of Molten Giant, but even those classes are usually better off just taking one of the other cards offered in that set.

Sea Giant sort of suffers the same problem as Molten Giant. Good arena players play the board control game, and trade minions heavily early in the game. But even so, its not uncommon for players to trade out 2 minions and play 3 more the same turn in the middle stages of the game. I rarely have a problem getting a Sea Giant out at 5-8 mana cost. The real advantage though is that he can't get stuck in your hand. Worst case scenario hes 10 mana 8/8. Not ideal, but at least its a body on the board. Perhaps even more importantly though, is that you do not have to put yourself (or be put into) a disadvantaged situation before he can be used effectively. With Mountain Giant you have to hold on to cards, with Molten Giant you have to be low on health.

As for the rest of the neutral epics, they are mostly powerful but situational. You want to strive for consistency in your arena decks, and that Blood Knight might win you a game occasionally when you get it out as a 6/6 on turn 2 or 3, but much more often he's just going to sit in your hand being dead weight as patiently wait for your opponent to play that divine shield. Its important to understand the opportunity cost of having these kinds of cards in your deck - every time it ends up in your hand while you can't use it effectively, its another card that isn't in your hand. That could have been the fireball you needed to deal the finishing blow, it could have been that taunt you desperately needed in order to stabilize while you wait to get to your late game minions. The more of these type of cards you have in your deck, the more likely they are to end up in your hand when they aren't useful, taking up that draw that could have been something more helpful.

The class epics are a mixed bag. Druid easily has the best set of class epics. Paladin is a close second with Avenging Wrath, Sword of Justice and Lay on Hands. Mage Pyroblast is good, but everything else is bad. Shadow Cabal Priest is very good, but thats all for Priest. Theres a few more good ones, but most of the other class epics are average to terrible.
 
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