Heat Pumps = scam?

[vi edit]

How well is your home insulated and how new and energy efficient are your windows? Having an efficient heating system is completely negated if it's all leaking out of your house or letting in too much cool air.

 

[TankGuys]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: TankGuys
I live in SE Michigan, and we get both hot summer days and cold winter days. We had a ground source heat pump installed about 2 years ago now, and I'm VERY glad we did.

Yes, when the temp drops down to a certain point, it's tough for the geo system to keep up, so it will turn on the backup electrical resistance heat system. Yes, this certainly costs more than just running the heat pump. However, for the few times it even has to kick that on, compared to the massive savings you see every other day of the year, it's still *well* worth it. I would not consider any other heating/cooling system again.

Why are you using resistance heat with all those quad core cpus you have up there?

Well, CPUs *do* heat up by electrical resistance...

But ssshhh... don't tell people that I'm selling them processors I previously used to heat my living room

 

[Sea Moose]

**sigh**

Heat pumps are not a scam

You need to right equipment for your climate.

For example: Evaporative coolers only work in dry heat, but people (conmen) sell them where i live and work which is a humid heat. So the evap coolers are fail where i live.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: TankGuys

Well, CPUs *do* heat up by electrical resistance...

But ssshhh... don't tell people that I'm selling them processors I previously used to heat my living room

Technically it's junction capacitance that causes the heat.

 

[Modelworks]

Not a scam anymore than solar panels would be using them in Alaska.
Use tech for what it is designed for.

 

[kalrith]

What is your thermostat set to in the winter? I live in Missouri (obviously much warmer than where you are), and we used less than 500 gallons of propane for the entire winter (I haven't looked at the gauge to see how much is left, but I know that we only got the tank filled once at the beginning of the year). Our furnace isn't extremely new, but it's quite high on the efficiency scale.

 

[TankGuys]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: TankGuys

Well, CPUs *do* heat up by electrical resistance...

But ssshhh... don't tell people that I'm selling them processors I previously used to heat my living room

Technically it's junction capacitance that causes the heat.

Sheesh... way to be all technical. What are you, a mod in the Highly Technical forum or something??

... Oh, wait...

Yea okay you got me there!


Back on topic, however, Kalrith's post reminded me of something. One very nice benefit of the heat pumps is that you typically keep the house at a constant temperature, day and night, if you're at work or not. So not only is it much cheaper to run, but you also keep the house the same comfortable temperature 24/7, so you don't have to worry about programming different settings for different times of day to save $$$.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: DrPizza
Probably close enough to PA that you can get coal fairly cheaply. The price of coal has been going up, but it's still probably the cheapest way to heat your house in the winter, if it's available in your location. We're in Western NY & have much colder temperatures than the area in your profile. Last year, I believe my heating bill for the winter was around $700. My house is minimally (~2" in the ceiling) insulated. I keep the living room/dining room/kitchen between 70 & 80; bedrooms cooler for sleeping. Anthracite is quite clean, and for a couple extra dollars per ton, it's lightly dampened with kerosene to reduce dust to virtually zero. It's slightly inconvenient to have to spend almost 3 minutes every other day emptying the ashpan & refilling the hopper, but it probably saves me a couple thousand over using oil.

I've always shrugged off "wood pellets" and "coal" when my friends suggested them...mainly because I don't feel like having to shovel shit around just like you said, but I suppose I can spare 3-5 minutes if it means saving thousands of dollars. What do you do with the ashes? Can you sell them to anyone?

The ashes don't have any value for things like gardens. We started spreading them on part of our driveway. They are outstanding for traction if a car gets stuck in the snow - keep a bag of ashes in the trunk. And, I'm nice enough to fill in some of the potholes on the dirt road that ends along our property.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Blackjack200

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
Electric heat cheaper than propane? :laugh:

Good luck with that one.

My propane bill is about $4,500 annually @ $3 / gallon and cold winter. It averages around $3K per year so far, but its a safe bet that this year will see propane over $3/gal in my area. You think electric heat would be more?

Yes. If electric heat was cheaper no-one would bother with gas/oil/propane. It's probably much more expensive.

2 years ago it was FAR cheaper to use electricity for heating then i twas for propane.

At one time we were hearing prices were up to $5.50 a gallon. considering we use about 1000 gallons a winter it added up.

Now we are getitng it for like $1.75-2.25.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
Electric heat cheaper than propane? :laugh:

Good luck with that one.

My propane bill is about $4,500 annually @ $3 / gallon and cold winter. It averages around $3K per year so far, but its a safe bet that this year will see propane over $3/gal in my area. You think electric heat would be more?

Holy crap. I ran my heat pump on heat mode twice last year.

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
Electric heat cheaper than propane? :laugh:

Good luck with that one.

My propane bill is about $4,500 annually @ $3 / gallon and cold winter. It averages around $3K per year so far, but its a safe bet that this year will see propane over $3/gal in my area. You think electric heat would be more?

Holy crap. I ran my heat pump on heat mode twice last year.

Yeh but how often did you run your AC?

 

[Jumpem]

You must have a huge house, keep your heat too high, or have a very inefficient furnace.

We get below zero temperatures and a couple hundred inches of snow in the winter here. I also use propane, and spend maybe $1000 over an entire year.

 

[Chaotic42]

Originally posted by: vi edit

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
Electric heat cheaper than propane? :laugh:

Good luck with that one.

My propane bill is about $4,500 annually @ $3 / gallon and cold winter. It averages around $3K per year so far, but its a safe bet that this year will see propane over $3/gal in my area. You think electric heat would be more?

Holy crap. I ran my heat pump on heat mode twice last year.

Yeh but how often did you run your AC?

About 350 days.

 

[StinkyPinky]

Just go around naked and when you get cold just pee on yourself.

Well, i'm off to scrape some more lead based paint off the wall.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: vi edit

Originally posted by: Chaotic42

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: waffleironhead
Electric heat cheaper than propane? :laugh:

Good luck with that one.

My propane bill is about $4,500 annually @ $3 / gallon and cold winter. It averages around $3K per year so far, but its a safe bet that this year will see propane over $3/gal in my area. You think electric heat would be more?

Holy crap. I ran my heat pump on heat mode twice last year.

Yeh but how often did you run your AC?

About 350 days.

lol i think i have had my AC on about 20 days this summer. my electric bill has been cheap.

 

[IronWing]

Heat Pumps would be a great brand name for women's shoes.

 

[Veramocor]

Air source heat pumps can be made that work in low temperatures such as Hallowell http://www.gotohallowell.com/. Also I know in Canada Mitsubishi offers a heat pump that works in very low temperatures http://www.mitsubishielectric....t_is_zuba_central.html by using a variable speed compressor.

Unfortunately none of the big name companies are selling such models in the U.S.

 

[amdskip]

When I was in an apartment, the silly landlord had a heatpump for each apartment. The air blew out cold and just seemed to really suck at heating the place.

 

[Mojoed]

Surprised no one has mentioned Acadia Heat Pumps yet. Typical heat pump electric "emergency heat" (~9000 watts) kicks in between 30-40 degrees Fahrenheit.

Acadia "emergency heat" mode may kick in when the outside temp is about 16 degrees fahrenheit, and it kicks in in stages, (3000, 6000, 9000 watts). So the bottom line is, you're using much less energy because emergency heat kicks in far less often, and when it does, it uses less electricity. Keep in mind, emergency heat duration averages only 4-7 minutes runtime before thermostat goals are reached. And once temp goals are reached, emergency heat will typically not be required to maintain desired temperature. (Unless you have a very poorly insulated home).

Acadia heat pumps have two compressors - the main one and a secondary one to create an artificial environment for the primary one when the temperature dips low.

Read the tech data! If you want more information, call them at 1-877-322-2342 and ask for Kevin. He can explain all this much better than I.

 

[Rubycon]

Originally posted by: Mojoed
Surprised no one has mentioned Acadia Heat Pumps yet. Typical heat pump electric "emergency heat" (~9000 watts) kicks in between 30-40 degrees Fahrenheit.

Acadia "emergency heat" mode may kick in when the outside temp is about 16 degrees fahrenheit, and it kicks in in stages, (3000, 6000, 9000 watts). So the bottom line is, you're using much less energy because emergency heat kicks in far less often, and when it does, it uses less electricity. Keep in mind, emergency heat duration averages only 4-7 minutes runtime before thermostat goals are reached. And once temp goals are reached, emergency heat will typically not be required to maintain desired temperature. (Unless you have a very poorly insulated home).

Acadia heat pumps have two compressors - the main one and a secondary one to create an artificial environment for the primary one when the temperature dips low.

Read the tech data! If you want more information, call them at 1-877-322-2342 and ask for Kevin. He can explain all this much better than I.

The term "emergency heat" is used when there is a problem that prevents the heat pump from running at all. It's there to keep you from freezing to death if your outdoor unit stops working and you're unable to get it working before a repair tech arrives or can get it working, etc.

Electric strip heaters provide supplementary heat when the heat pump drops out of its prime efficiency range of outdoor ambients also known as the balance point. Thermostat programs are complicated and this value is not a fixed value. Supplementary heat can also be used in certain cases where the difference between the actual ambient temperature and the call for heat setting on the thermostat is higher.

For example when walking into a place where the temperature was set way back to 55F and you want 72F. If it's colder it will even take longer whereas 10kW+ strip heaters will help bringing the temperature into a comfortable range much faster.

Also since the outdoor coils accumulate ice a defrost cycle is required in which the reversing valve is engaged by bringing the orange lead high. This actually turns the indoor coil into an evaporator (AC mode!) so you MUST run supplementary heat (AUX HEAT light on stat) during this or experience very chilly air blowing from the registers. :Q

Regardless if you have dual fuel or electric strip heaters if your heat pump does not run you can engage the EMERGENCY HEAT function on your thermostat and have heat. (but it's expensive!)

Multiple stage units like the Acadia are considerably costlier than normal high efficiency heat pumps (16+ SEER) so you need to evaluate YOUR particular needs to see when you cross the payback line vs. usable unit life, etc.

 

[Mojoed]

Originally posted by: Rubycon

Originally posted by: Mojoed
Surprised no one has mentioned Acadia Heat Pumps yet. Typical heat pump electric "emergency heat" (~9000 watts) kicks in between 30-40 degrees Fahrenheit.

Acadia "emergency heat" mode may kick in when the outside temp is about 16 degrees fahrenheit, and it kicks in in stages, (3000, 6000, 9000 watts). So the bottom line is, you're using much less energy because emergency heat kicks in far less often, and when it does, it uses less electricity. Keep in mind, emergency heat duration averages only 4-7 minutes runtime before thermostat goals are reached. And once temp goals are reached, emergency heat will typically not be required to maintain desired temperature. (Unless you have a very poorly insulated home).

Acadia heat pumps have two compressors - the main one and a secondary one to create an artificial environment for the primary one when the temperature dips low.

Read the tech data! If you want more information, call them at 1-877-322-2342 and ask for Kevin. He can explain all this much better than I.

The term "emergency heat" is used when there is a problem that prevents the heat pump from running at all. It's there to keep you from freezing to death if your outdoor unit stops working and you're unable to get it working before a repair tech arrives or can get it working, etc.

Electric strip heaters provide supplementary heat when the heat pump drops out of its prime efficiency range of outdoor ambients also known as the balance point. Thermostat programs are complicated and this value is not a fixed value. Supplementary heat can also be used in certain cases where the difference between the actual ambient temperature and the call for heat setting on the thermostat is higher.

For example when walking into a place where the temperature was set way back to 55F and you want 72F. If it's colder it will even take longer whereas 10kW+ strip heaters will help bringing the temperature into a comfortable range much faster.

Also since the outdoor coils accumulate ice a defrost cycle is required in which the reversing valve is engaged by bringing the orange lead high. This actually turns the indoor coil into an evaporator (AC mode!) so you MUST run supplementary heat (AUX HEAT light on stat) during this or experience very chilly air blowing from the registers. :Q

Regardless if you have dual fuel or electric strip heaters if your heat pump does not run you can engage the EMERGENCY HEAT function on your thermostat and have heat. (but it's expensive!)

Multiple stage units like the Acadia are considerably costlier than normal high efficiency heat pumps (16+ SEER) so you need to evaluate YOUR particular needs to see when you cross the payback line vs. usable unit life, etc.

Nice post, as always.

For the purpose of my post above, Emergency Heat = supplementary heat. I believe different manufacturers interchange these phrases. For instance, on my Lennox XP19 systems, the thermostat shows "EM HEAT" when supplementary heat kicks in.

 

[Mojoed]

Oh and a bit off topic here, the Lennox XP19's, freaking rock! I have (2) 200 amp services in my house, one each for upstairs and downstairs (1400 sq. feet each) I keep the second floor at 68 degrees around the clock and each power bill in cooling months averages $60-65.

I am blown away by the cooling efficiency of modern heat pumps. SEER 19+ models do cost a fair bit more than standard efficiency models, but if you plan on staying in your house for 7+ years, it will pay for itself.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: EricMartello

Originally posted by: FoBoT
you are talking about air source heat pumps

ground source heat pumps, where the heat sink/source is coils buried in the ground, work fine in colder regions

my ground source heat pump is awesome

I looked at the ground source option...it seemed cool until they told me it's $15K to drill a few holes in the ground.

Aside from replacing my gas furnace (which was super high efficiency in 97 when it was new), I was thinking about just getting some electric baseboard heaters for each room. That's like what they do in Japan...even with the additional electricity being used i bet it will be better than propane.

BTW is hole-drilling really that expensive? If I buy a hole drilling machine can I go around charging that kinda money to drill?

You'd make up $15K in savings over 5-6 years of no gas costs. Ground heat pumps are great. My inlaws had one and never had an issue---and it can get to -10F here in the winter.

 

[Shawn]

Got a heat pump here in N. Florida and it works fine, even when it gets down to the teens. Doesn't happen very often though.

 

[Hoober]

Originally posted by: spidey07
The best is a combo gas and heat pump. The heat pump is more efficient up to a certain temperature and then gas becomes more efficient. Controller/thermostat tell it which one to use.

Also carrier and trane are offering 1000 dollar rebate if you purchase in the month of september in addition to your possible 1500 tax rebate. So if you're going to make a move, make it fast.

Exactly. I live in Colorado where the temps dip down below 30 pretty regularly in the winter. In the Spring and Fall, though, the nights don't get that cold. When we put in A/C, we opted for an air-source heat pump to compliment our natural gas furnace. The heat pump is an extremely efficient unit and it heats well down to about 32 degrees. If the outside temp drops below that, the furnace kicks over to heat the house.

Since we put the heat pump in, our overall utility bill dropped about 10% because the heat pump is so much more efficient at keeping the house an even temperature when it's not that cold outside.