Heating issues

[skaertus]

I am in the process of building a desktop computer, and I am increasingly worried about heating. I am not really worried about the system running cool enough to avoid throttling. What worries me is that the computer may exchange heat with the room and make the room hotter. As I live in a hot country (Brazil), this is a concern, as sometimes it gets really uncomfortable to sit next to the computer during the summer.

According to information I read, a better cooling makes the system run cooler, but the temperature of the room is not modified. This is ratified by this YouTube video: https://youtu.be/-oKIo0V0omg.

So, I was wondering which processor and video card I should buy. I was thinking of buying a Core i7-8700 with a GTX 1070. However, I am concerned that this particular system might make the room too hot. Should I go with something else instead? What would be a safe bet? I certainly want a fast computer, but above all I want something I will be comfortable with sitting next to it. I will happily exchange speed for this additional comfort.

Thanks.

 

[LTC8K6]

What will you do with this computer? What performance level are you looking for?
An 8400 would be my suggestion at first.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Generally speaking, Watts in == heat out, barring small things like mechanical movement like fans.

So, PCs are effectively 100% efficient space heaters.

TDP is just a guideline, for individual components, as to how much immediate cooling capacity they need. It's not the same as heat output.

Maybe you should have two PCs, or a gaming desktop and a lower-powered browsing laptop.

That way, you're not burning 100% of your high-end PC's wattage all the time, just browsing.

That said, most power-saving features on modern platforms and CPUs, is pretty good. So as long as you don't defeat those mechanisms, you should be OK. (So, don't overclock.)

 

[whm1974]

I'm sure you will be fine with the 8700 and GTX 1070 as long you do what Larry said about not overclocking. I would however get a better aftermarket HSF instead of using the stock Intel one. I would also get a well designed case with the best cooling system you can get.

 

[skaertus]

What will you do with this computer? What performance level are you looking for?
An 8400 would be my suggestion at first.

Thanks. I am looking for a fast desktop for general purpose, office working (mostly Word/PowerPoint), web browsing, and occasionally casual gaming.

It's not a powerhouse to edit videos or to play immersive games. However, I am not really satisfied with the level of performance I currently have with my Core i5-7500T, 8 GB RAM, and an integrated video card. I plan to use two monitors attached to it, one with a 3840x2160 resolution, and the other with a 2560x1440 resolution, and that puts a lot of stress in the video card and imposes penalty on the performance even when doing somewhat light work.

Does an i5-8400 heat less than an i7-8700, both with the same TDP? I once heard that the i7 would heat less because it is a more efficient processor.

Generally speaking, Watts in == heat out, barring small things like mechanical movement like fans.

So, PCs are effectively 100% efficient space heaters.

TDP is just a guideline, for individual components, as to how much immediate cooling capacity they need. It's not the same as heat output.

Maybe you should have two PCs, or a gaming desktop and a lower-powered browsing laptop.

That way, you're not burning 100% of your high-end PC's wattage all the time, just browsing.

That said, most power-saving features on modern platforms and CPUs, is pretty good. So as long as you don't defeat those mechanisms, you should be OK. (So, don't overclock.)

Well, I have no room at home for two desktop PCs. I must have only one. I do not plan to have a powerhouse gaming machine, as I do play games only occasionally. But I still want something that will drive two high-resolution monitors without any performance penalty.

However, if I have to reduce the power of some components, so be it. It's really hot here: now the temperature is 86o F, and we are not even in the Summer. I am writing this in a laptop (a Dell XPS 9550 with a Core i7-6700HQ and a GTX 960M) and it is uncomfortable to use it as it gets very warm. The last desktop computer that I built was a Core i7-870 with a GTX 470 back in 2010, and it got very uncomfortable to use, as it got warm all the time, especially in the summer.

I'm sure you will be fine with the 8700 and GTX 1070 as long you do what Larry said about not overclocking. I would however get a better aftermarket HSF instead of using the stock Intel one. I would also get a well designed case with the best cooling system you can get.

I will not overclock.

I was wondering whether it will get warm, though. As I said, my last desktop computer (a Core i7-870 with a GTX 470) got very warm, to the point I sweat a lot when using it. I want something that runs reasonably cool. While I suspect current components may heat less (after all, Apple managed to put a Core i7-8700 inside a Mac Mini), I am also concerned (as I am currently using a sixth-gen Core i7 laptop which is heating a lot).

 

[LTC8K6]

You have a 4 core 4 thread 35W T processor now. There are 8000 series 6 core, and 6 core 12 thread 35W T processors.

https://ark.intel.com/compare/129940,129941,129938,129948

 

[whm1974]

@skaertus The i7-8700 and 1070 should a great deal cooler then both your previous desktop and your current laptop as well.

Of course you could also use the 35W T processors @LTC8K6 mention as well. Personally I would just get the i7-8700 and slap a good aftermarket HSF on and use a case with the best air flow you can find.

 

[skaertus]

You have a 4 core 4 thread 35W T processor now. There are 8000 series 6 core, and 6 core 12 thread 35W T processors.

https://ark.intel.com/compare/129940,129941,129938,129948

Thanks.

I know that, the thing is, I cannot find a 35W T processor for sale here in Brazil, for the purposes of building a desktop. My current 35W T processor came inside of an HP mini desktop that I bought. I cannot find these processors for sale separately. I can only find 65W and 95W processors.

@skaertus The i7-8700 and 1070 should a great deal cooler then both your previous desktop and your current laptop as well.

Of course you could also use the 35W T processors @LTC8K6 mention as well. Personally I would just get the i7-8700 and slap a good aftermarket HSF on and use a case with the best air flow you can find.

Does a better cooling make the room cooler as well?

Based on some reports and on this YouTube video, I was under the impression that a good cooler only makes the internals cooler, but the temperature of the room ramains the same: https://youtu.be/-oKIo0V0omg

 

[Kartajan]

Thanks.

I know that, the thing is, I cannot find a 35W T processor for sale here in Brazil, for the purposes of building a desktop. My current 35W T processor came inside of an HP mini desktop that I bought. I cannot find these processors for sale separately. I can only find 65W and 95W processors.



Does a better cooling make the room cooler as well?

Based on some reports and on this YouTube video, I was under the impression that a good cooler only makes the internals cooler, but the temperature of the room ramains the same: https://youtu.be/-oKIo0V0omg

Any good cooling solution will move heat out of your components into the room. With room heat being your primary concern, you will need to focus on using low power components- thus the T processor recommendations.

I would be more focused on the video card, as it will likely be a much higher heat generator (at full load) in your use case. With your stated use case, and depending on what you are calling casual gaming, I would tend to lean more towards a Ryzen 5 2400g build (and it's integrated GPU). This has a 65w TDP, which is less heat in your room and more powerful graphics that the intel iGPU. With a discrete video card, the 1050ti (the only half decent GPU that can run on just PCIe slot power) you are consuming up to 75w more power that the CPU alone- which will heat up your space accordingly.

An 8700 and 1070, while much more powerful than the 2400g alone or your existing desktop, will dump (75w PCIe Slot+75-150w PCIe Power +65w CPU) of power into your space. <My heat math is a very rough approximation, as specific loads and optimizations will cause this output to vary>

 

[LTC8K6]

Why not just drop an i7-7700 in your existing computer?

That's 65W and it will give you a big CPU boost.

 

[skaertus]

Why not just drop an i7-7700 in your existing computer?

That's 65W and it will give you a big CPU boost.

It is a mini PC, and I cannot change its components. I cannot add a GPU, or change the processor. All I could do was add more RAM, and an SSD, which I already did.

 

[LTC8K6]

It is a mini PC, and I cannot change its components. I cannot add a GPU, or change the processor. All I could do was add more RAM, and an SSD, which I already did.

A 7500T should be a Socket 1151 chip.

I still think if you are going Intel, the 8400 will give you a nice boost without getting too hot.
I also like the idea of the AMD 2400G chip, if the graphics are good enough for you. They are far above the graphics of the 7500T chip.

 

[skaertus]

A 7500T should be a Socket 1151 chip.

I still think if you are going Intel, the 8400 will give you a nice boost without getting too hot.
I also like the idea of the AMD 2400G chip, if the graphics are good enough for you. They are far above the graphics of the 7500T chip.

But can a 2400G and its integrated video card get away with a 3840x2160 and a 2560x1440 monitor without any loss of performance?

When I was using the 7500T with its poor Intel HD 630 video card on a 2560x1440 monitor, it was OK. When I plugged the 3840x2160, I could notice the performance penalty which it imposed. I cannot run the two monitors at once because my current mini does not even have the ports for connecting both. But I can imagine the HD 630 would not be able to without a serious loss of performance. I wonder whether the RX Vega 11 of the 2400G would be able to connect the two monitors and still deliver good performance.

 

[LTC8K6]

Not sure what you mean by a loss of performance? Are you gaming with one monitor and surfing with the other. The 2400G will certainly be far better than HD530/630.

If you are looking for GTX1060/1070 performance, then no, the 2400G won't be anywhere near that.

You aren't going to get these upgrades without adding more heat to your room than the 7500T adds.

I think you need to settle on something like an 8400 and a 1050ti.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The Ryzen 2200G and 2400G (Vega 8 and Vega 11, respectively), with dual-channel RAM of 2400 or faster, support 4K UHD resolutions JUST FINE over HDMI. I assume that if the board supports a DVI-D (maybe DL?), or DisplayPort as well, that you could also run your 2560x1440 monitor off of that as a secondary.

Edit: Not for gaming, only for 2D work / web browsing / video / YT watching.

 

[skaertus]

Not sure what you mean by a loss of performance? Are you gaming with one monitor and surfing with the other. The 2400G will certainly be far better than HD530/630.

If you are looking for GTX1060/1070 performance, then no, the 2400G won't be anywhere near that.

You aren't going to get these upgrades without adding more heat to your room than the 7500T adds.

I think you need to settle on something like an 8400 and a 1050ti.

When I run my current computer (i5-7500T with HD 630) on a 2560x1440 monitor, it was fine. Now that I am running it with a 3840x2160, I can see the loss of performance. The video card cannot handle it smoothly, and it seems to put stress on both the CPU and the RAM as well.

Ryzen 5 2400G would be great if it could handle it. It is certainly a lot cheaper and would produce less heat than separate CPU and GPU. I wonder how Ryzen 5 2400G and Vega 11 would behave in this environment. Would they run two monitors smoothly? Or would these two monitors put stress in the CPU/GPU combo?

I am not necessarily looking for GTX 1060/1070 performance. But it seems to me that GPU performance is the bottleneck of my current system, even not running games. Although the HD 630 is capable of outputting 4K, it is clearly reaching its limits here.

I can handle some more heat in my room than I currently have, but up to a certain point. Does an iMac heat up a rooom? Because Apple manages to put a desktop-class Core i5/i7 processor, and an AMD video card inside of it. And I have never heard complaints about warmer rooms in Mac usage.

 

[skaertus]

The Ryzen 2200G and 2400G (Vega 8 and Vega 11, respectively), with dual-channel RAM of 2400 or faster, support 4K UHD resolutions JUST FINE over HDMI. I assume that if the board supports a DVI-D (maybe DL?), or DisplayPort as well, that you could also run your 2560x1440 monitor off of that as a secondary.

Edit: Not for gaming, only for 2D work / web browsing / video / YT watching.

I do not intend to run games at 3840x2160, I guess not even a GTX 1070 could handle that properly. It would be OK to run games at 1080p occasionally. I would really need it to run apps smoothly on these two monitors. The HD 630 can output to 4K, but it is not smooth.

 

[LTC8K6]

Keep in mind that unless you are pushing them fairly hard, none of these CPUs will be anywhere near their TDP ratings.

It looks like the two display setup shouldn't actually be a problem for the Intel HD630, since it can handle three displays.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000025675/graphics-drivers.html

 

[VirtualLarry]

The HD 630 can output to 4K, but it is not smooth.

Actually, it can. Only, not over the HDMI 1.4 port, but over DisplayPort, which you can use to chain an active DisplayPort-to-HDMI2.0 adaptor (I used the Club3D model).

I did this with my DeskMini H110W units, with G4560 (HD610) and G4600 (HD630) CPUs.

The difference is, without the active adaptor, you only get 4K@30Hz, which means that you get skippy scrolling and mouse movement.

With the adaptor, you get 4K@60Hz, which is by comparison silky-smooth.

But that requires a motherboard or device with a DisplayPort or Mini-DisplayPort output.

Edit: Assuming that you're using dual-channel DDR4-2400 or faster RAM, HD630 can even play back 4K UHD YouTube @ 60FPS. I've done it.

 

[skaertus]

Keep in mind that unless you are pushing them fairly hard, none of these CPUs will be anywhere near their TDP ratings.

It looks like the two display setup shouldn't actually be a problem for the Intel HD630, since it can handle three displays.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/support/articles/000025675/graphics-drivers.html

The Intel HD 630 supports three displays, but my HP ProDesk 400 G3 Mini has only two ports, one DisplayPort and one VGA. I cannot connect the two desired displays to this particular computer.

In any case, the computer is already struggling to deliver 3840x2160 on one single monitor. Yes, it can handle the task, but the CPU and the RAM seem to be working too hard. Somehow, I felt that the performance with the 2560x1440 monitor was much better. I wonder the HD 630 performance with two monitors will be poor, even though it can support it. It is a whole different thing to support it and to run it at a good performance level.

Actually, it can. Only, not over the HDMI 1.4 port, but over DisplayPort, which you can use to chain an active DisplayPort-to-HDMI2.0 adaptor (I used the Club3D model).

I did this with my DeskMini H110W units, with G4560 (HD610) and G4600 (HD630) CPUs.

The difference is, without the active adaptor, you only get 4K@30Hz, which means that you get skippy scrolling and mouse movement.

With the adaptor, you get 4K@60Hz, which is by comparison silky-smooth.

But that requires a motherboard or device with a DisplayPort or Mini-DisplayPort output.

Edit: Assuming that you're using dual-channel DDR4-2400 or faster RAM, HD630 can even play back 4K UHD YouTube @ 60FPS. I've done it.

I use the monitor with a DisplayPort, and it runs 4K at 60Hz. The problem is, the computer is clearly struggling to deliver good performance. One can clearly see that the HD 630 is being pushed to its limits there. It runs "smooth", but it could definitely be smoother and more responsive.

 

[LTC8K6]

Have you checked the CPU and GPU load as you are trying to run the two displays to see how hard they are actually working?

 

[skaertus]

Have you checked the CPU and GPU load as you are trying to run the two displays to see how hard they are actually working?

The CPU has been working a lot even with no software running (apart from Windows). I am not using the PC right now, but I can check it for you. But I remember the numbers were pretty high for an idle computer.

In any case, I cannot put the two monitors on this computer, as there are no ports available for connecting them...

 

[LTC8K6]

Just curious, because certainly HD530/630 is not normally going to struggle with one 4K display.

 

[Ketchup]

"Now that I am running it with a 3840x2160, I can see the loss of performance. "

Can you put this into words or numbers. What activity are you seeing slowness in?