Help for upgrading WRT54GL

[Hogan773]

Hi all - I have 2 WRT54GLs that I bought 3-ish years ago. I put Tomato on both and I love them. One is set as the main AP at my upstairs primary desktop and the second is set as a client bridge and sits at a basement PC where both that PC and a PS3 are hooked via wired ethernet (the 54GL gets a better signal that the PS3 tucked into a TV cabinet).

My system works great and right now in my upstairs bedroom I am getting Speedtest transfer of about 10mbps down and 4 up from my laptop. Sometimes, for whatever reason, the laptop seems to slow down though on certain days. Not sure if someone moved the antennas on the GL or its competing with a neighbor or what. Not often, but sometimes.

But my system is G and not N!

So my questions:

1) What is a good router that I can get for $60 or under that can run Tomato? I was looking at refurb E3000s.

2) Can someone pls help me re the actual benefits of upgrading? I recall, and have also found other discussions, that unless EVERYTHING is running as N on the system, the system will have to run as G. True? I probably don't want or need to buy TWO routers to replace both, as the GL in the basement works just fine (both work just fine actually). If I got ONE new N router as the main, and then had laptop connecting as N, smartphone as N, but old GL as G, what happens?

- do I get better range at same throughput?
- do I get to run at ACTUAL Xfer of 54mbps max of G even if system is running as G?
- do the new routers have ability to connect in mixed modes so N devices could run much faster at same time as G devices maxing themselves?


Basically I think the 54GLs are very rock solid and I don't want to pay lots of $$$ just so I can run speedtest speeds. I am not at this point streaming video nor doing large file xfers. I do have Comcast so can get 20mbps actual, and would be fun to get that wirelessly on laptops and smartphones. I do NOT want to give up the stability of the GLs and have to futz around with my new N-friend every 3 days resetting it, having the wife call me when I'm out of town saying the Internet doesn't work, etc.


What should I do? Is there a good Tomato-able router that is rock solid, not too expensive, and which can increase my range and throughput on a mixed-client environment? Or should I stick with my working system and find another "project" somewhere else in life?

 

[AD5MB]

a mixed mode router ( oversimplified ):

• runs for a while as an n router
• closes out n traffic
• switches to g
• listens for g traffic
• closes out g traffic
• switches to n...

wasting a lot of time switching and closing out traffic.

making it a slow n router and a very slow g router.

 

[Hogan773]

a mixed mode router ( oversimplified ):

• runs for a while as an n router
• closes out n traffic
• switches to g
• listens for g traffic
• closes out g traffic
• switches to n...

wasting a lot of time switching and closing out traffic.

making it a slow n router and a very slow g router.

Ok so bad idea to use mixed mode I guess.

Per one of my questions above, does a newer N router running in G mode have the ability to give better range AND get up to the theoretical maximum G speeds of 54mbps (that my old G can't approach in reality)? Or does a newer N router running in G mode end up being an exact clone of my current 54GL in terms of range and throughput?

 

[pitz]

Its pretty hard to beat the range of a wrt54gl, with its radio power turned up in a 3rd party firmware. I can use my laptop quite a few houses away with one tucked in a corner in my basement.

You could always keep the wrt54gl's and essentially configure them to be access points, while running a dual radio 802.11n access point/router indoors for the high bandwidth stuff.

 

[Hogan773]

Its pretty hard to beat the range of a wrt54gl, with its radio power turned up in a 3rd party firmware. I can use my laptop quite a few houses away with one tucked in a corner in my basement.

You could always keep the wrt54gl's and essentially configure them to be access points, while running a dual radio 802.11n access point/router indoors for the high bandwidth stuff.

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Use the existing 54GLs to run a separate G-network alongside a new N-router for N stuff? Or use an N-router as the primary and then have the 54GLs as repeaters and run the whole thing on G or mixed mode?

I'm only running my GLs at something like 55 power in Tomato. I had read that turning them way up could burn out the transmitters over time, plus turning them way up doesn't really solve many issues because the tiny little laptop card out in the field may HEAR it just fine, but doesn't have enough power to actually talk back! Plus at higher power the noise goes up too.

 

[pitz]

Can you clarify what you mean by this? Use the existing 54GLs to run a separate G-network alongside a new N-router for N stuff? Or use an N-router as the primary and then have the 54GLs as repeaters and run the whole thing on G or mixed mode?

Yeah, run a seperate G network. The 5GHz 802.11a/802.11n stuff will never have the sort of range that the 802.11b/g 2.4GHz has. If your Internet connection isn't above 50mbit/sec, you could just leave the wrt54gl as the gateway to the Internet as well, and tag your 802.11n gear on in bridged mode. That's what I do, and it works well.

If your internet connection is faster than 50-60mbit/sec, then you'll probably need a router/gateway to your Internet connection that is faster than what the wrt54gl offers, simply because the wrt54gl will run out of spare CPU capacity. If you're extremely heavily into torrents, you probably would also exhaust the NAT table of the wrt54gl with such a fast connection (4096 seems to be the limit on dd-wrt / wrt54gl) due to inadequate RAM.

But on your 20mbps connection, plenty of capacity if you continue to use the wrt54gl as the gateway. Really, the only reason for you to upgrade to 802.11n at this point would be if you want to access internal fileservers faster over the wireless. Its probably not going to make anything else faster.

I'm only running my GLs at something like 55 power in Tomato. I had read that turning them way up could burn out the transmitters over time, plus turning them way up doesn't really solve many issues because the tiny little laptop card out in the field may HEAR it just fine, but doesn't have enough power to actually talk back! Plus at higher power the noise goes up too.

Have my wrt54gl cranked up to 251mW in dd-wrt for years. Works great, despite all the 'theory' that too much power isn't good.

 

[Hogan773]

Yeah, run a seperate G network. The 5GHz 802.11a/802.11n stuff will never have the sort of range that the 802.11b/g 2.4GHz has. If your Internet connection isn't above 50mbit/sec, you could just leave the wrt54gl as the gateway to the Internet as well, and tag your 802.11n gear on in bridged mode. That's what I do, and it works well.

If your internet connection is faster than 50-60mbit/sec, then you'll probably need a router/gateway to your Internet connection that is faster than what the wrt54gl offers, simply because the wrt54gl will run out of spare CPU capacity. If you're extremely heavily into torrents, you probably would also exhaust the NAT table of the wrt54gl with such a fast connection (4096 seems to be the limit on dd-wrt / wrt54gl) due to inadequate RAM.

But on your 20mbps connection, plenty of capacity if you continue to use the wrt54gl as the gateway. Really, the only reason for you to upgrade to 802.11n at this point would be if you want to access internal fileservers faster over the wireless. Its probably not going to make anything else faster.




Have my wrt54gl cranked up to 251mW in dd-wrt for years. Works great, despite all the 'theory' that too much power isn't good.

Hmm so maybe I should just find another project and place to spend my money. I just wondered if I could find a new system that would allow my wireless clients to connect at the full 20mbps easily (they generally are getting about 10mbps throughput on the WRT54GLs from the upstairs floor where we typically use the laptop). Didn't know if an N router would connect in a "stronger" manner thus allowing a full 20mbps wireless internet connection.

 

[pitz]

Hmm so maybe I should just find another project and place to spend my money. I just wondered if I could find a new system that would allow my wireless clients to connect at the full 20mbps easily (they generally are getting about 10mbps throughput on the WRT54GLs from the upstairs floor where we typically use the laptop). Didn't know if an N router would connect in a "stronger" manner thus allowing a full 20mbps wireless internet connection.

Do you actually get 20mbps on a 'speedtest' when you are hard-wired to the cable gear?

What wi-fi cards do you have in the laptops? Maybe they're junk, and your money better spent replacing them with something better.

 

[Hogan773]

Do you actually get 20mbps on a 'speedtest' when you are hard-wired to the cable gear?

What wi-fi cards do you have in the laptops? Maybe they're junk, and your money better spent replacing them with something better.

Yep - just ran a test now - 23 Mbps down and 4 Mbps up. This is on my main desktop PC which is direct wired Ethernet to the 54GL router which is wired to Comcast cable.

I have no idea what wifi card is in my laptop actually. It's an Acer Timeline 4810. Just did a quick Google and came on these specs for it

WLAN1, 4: Acer InviLink™ Nplify™3 802.11b/g/Draft-N Wi-Fi CERTIFIED® network connection, supporting Acer SignalUp™ wireless technology

So that's why I was thinking if I got an N-router that my laptop might connect faster. I mean honestly 10Mbps actual throughput rate is not SLOW....and that is going up one floor and about 40-50 feet away. I just was trying to figure out if N was THAT MUCH BETTER than G such that an N router would shrug at that and say "yeah I can give you actual 50 Mbps throughput easily, so you can get whatever maximum you're getting from cable even through wireless" (that is, if a router could talk). And I plan to get a new smartphone and I believe they're all N-capable these days, so same story.

 

[Hogan773]

So I spent some time on this last night. Even 4 feet away from the router, the laptop was only doing about 10-12 Mbps down, but the full 3-4 up. The PC does generally 19-23Mbps down and 3-4 up.

I fished around in Tomato a bit and figured out that I was still running WPA with TKIP encryption. Not knowing what the he!! that meant, I searched and basically found that I was running an antiquated method and I should be using WPA2-PSK with AES encryption. So I switched that (on Tomato as well as laptop), rebooted router and now the laptop was getting very close to the full download speeds. Maybe 1-2 Mbps less but that's close enough for me.

Back up in the upstairs bedroom, speeds dropped to anywhere between 8-13 Mbps depending on the exact angle I held the laptop, or whether I was breathing too loudly, or the wireless gods were smiling. No real rhyme or reason and one Speedtest would be 8-9 and then 30 secs later a second one would be 12-13. Who knows.

So I am happy that I was able to better optimize my current system, and I'll probably just stick with it for now. I am still "CURIOUS" if I were to get an E3000 whether it would connect up in the bedroom and give me that full 19-23 Mbps on wireless N if I set the router to Mixed Mode and my other client was connecting at G. Maybe I'll watch for a sale or pick up a used e3000 just to play around. But if I can generally get 10-12 on the laptop that should be fine. It used to be down in the 5-7.

 

[JackMDS]

Wireless decays with Distance and obstructions, it is the way Nature works that nothing you can do about it.

By combining wire and Wireless you can get Wireless capacity in other location. I.e, lay a wire to the remote room and connect a second Wireless Router there (configured as an Access Point).

 

[VirtualLarry]

just was trying to figure out if N was THAT MUCH BETTER than G such that an N router would shrug at that and say "yeah I can give you actual 50 Mbps throughput easily, so you can get whatever maximum you're getting from cable even through wireless" (that is, if a router could talk). And I plan to get a new smartphone and I believe they're all N-capable these days, so same story.

that basically IS true. I run a pair of Netgear WNR834Bv2 routers with DD-WRT in WDS mode, and I get my max internet bandwidth (30/25 net connection) on the PCs that are on the other end of the WDS connection.

I also get 3MB/sec out of my NAS over the WDS link.

I've downloaded ISOs from MS, and gotten 3.6MB/sec.

Edit: The WNR834Bv2 units seem not to be available anymore, but I also picked up some WNR2000v2 units (factory refurb from Newegg for $20 ea), and flashed them to DD-WRT as well. The WNR2000v2 has 32MB of RAM, the WNR834Bv2 only has 16MB.

 

[fobis]

There are now several N routers that can run Tomato (custom builds). A popular build choice is TomatoUSB. Others well-known ones are Victek's RAF builds and Toastman's builds. I can't speak to the quality of the routers supported by the custom Tomato builds, so I will direct you to the good folks over at LinksysInfo.org. They might have some information for you there. Sorry if you knew all of this already!

 

[Hogan773]

There are now several N routers that can run Tomato (custom builds). A popular build choice is TomatoUSB. Others well-known ones are Victek's RAF builds and Toastman's builds. I can't speak to the quality of the routers supported by the custom Tomato builds, so I will direct you to the good folks over at LinksysInfo.org. They might have some information for you there. Sorry if you knew all of this already!

Yes that is what I was looking at - Linksys E3000 or similar that can run Tomato. I use Tomato now and like it. I guess I could try DDWRT but I figure if I know Tomato I might as well stick with it.

 

[fobis]

Yes that is what I was looking at - Linksys E3000 or similar that can run Tomato. I use Tomato now and like it. I guess I could try DDWRT but I figure if I know Tomato I might as well stick with it.

I've used both and I much prefer Tomato. It's leaner, cleaner, simpler, and will usually give you all that you need. DD-WRT is nice, too, especially considering it's compatible with many routers, but I'd only use it if I happened to already own a router that was not Tomato-compatible.