Help me build my first watercooling setup?

[Bleeding Jawa]

I have finally ordered all the parts for my new computer. It's been about 4+ years since I've done an upgrade, so I am going for a pretty nice setup. I got a lot of great deals on components, and I decided that with the money saved I'd like to make my first venture into water-cooling...partially for performance, partially for fun.

I read through the stickied newbie guide as well as several pertinent posts and have also skimmed through various online cooling stores.

At this point, I feel I have a pretty strong "basic" understanding of how it all is "supposed to work," but I have no working knowledge to make an intelligent decision between quality parts and don't really know what to look for in terms of potential pitfalls.

Here is the hardware that I have (or have ordered):
CPU: Intel E8400
MB: GIGABYTE GA-X48-DS4
RAM: 8GB of G.Skill PI 1100MHz 1.9V DDR2
VGA: 2 x ATI 4870 (Asus) in CrossfireX
HDD: WD Velociraptor
Case: Antec Nine Hundred
PSU: Corsair 1000HX
Optical: 2 x DVD Burners

====================================

My goals for this setup are, in this order:
1 - Reliability...I cannot afford to have parts that are likely to die on me.
2 - Ability to re-use parts in the future
3 - Performance
4 - Price (Willing to pay for performance and quality, but not bragging rights)
5 - Noise (Need not be silent, but considering the cost, I should notice the difference)


I would like to water-cool:
- CPU
- 2 x GPUs
- Northbridge (X48)

I didn't figure anything else was that important...correct me if it it would be worthwhile considering the expenses that I am already putting forward.


* Considerations:
Overclocking - I plan to overclock the CPU to at least 4GHz, but I don't plan on getting ridiculous. Same with GPUs - A mild/modest overclock is likely considering the extra cooling, but I don't need to push the envelope.

Price - Under $500. I can afford to spend up to $500, but going with less than this ($300-400) would be HIGHLY preferable. I want quality, but I don't need bragging rights. I always appreciate a good "bang-for-the-buck."

Space - I have no problem setting up my radiator(s) (and if necessary other parts) outside of my case. I have considered building a small enclosure for my water-cooling parts. Space does not need to be a major consideration.


What I am looking for are recommendations on:
1. A list of the specific parts I should buy (including make/model). If different people have different opinions, that's fine...and appreciated.
2. If my specific hardware will require a more complicated watercooling solution (more than 1 pump, multiple separated loops), what do I need to do, and how should I set it up?


The only part that I have ordered is a Swiftech MCP655 pump. I am not 100% set on using this...I just happened across a really cheap deal on ebay for a new one. If I need to use something else, that's ok.

I know there are a few full-card waterblocks coming out for the 4870's in the next week or two. However, I have been leaning toward the idea of using a more generic block and just buying ram-sinks and whatever else I need. That way, I can spend about 1/3 as much and be more likely to recycle the waterblocks on a future build. If there is something comparable in price, I'd be more than happy to look at full-card designs, but I don't think it's going to be cost effective on my Crossfire setup.

MANY THANKS!!!

 

[Soulkeeper]

it's not really that complex

i'd try getting everything from one site, i personally like dangerden.com products

60 bucks or so for the mc tdx cpu block
radiators are expensive, either black ice (the cheaper solution) or thermochill in a 2x 120mm or 3x 120mm setup should be enough for you
pumps are also expensive, the best way to save on this is to just go to your local department store or hardware store and pickup a standard submersible pond pump with like 300 GPH rating, that'll set you back like 40 bucks or whatever, instead of the 100 the online people charge.

it's really up to you what you want, most of it is personal preference

here are some rough estimates accross brands:
60 bucks for cpu waterblock
60 bucks for a gpu waterblock
40 bucks for nb waterblock

the pump + radiator is basically whatever money you have left and can afford to burn

 

[Soulkeeper]

yeah that is a lot of waterblocks, maybe running a separate pump/radiator for the GPU's would be wise, then running NB -> cpu on another one
or you could use a T splitter in some way separating out into the blocks from the resevoir, then coming back together and running thru the radiator and back into the resevoir

 

[HardWarrior]

Keep your loop linear if at all possible, no Y's. Get a good, water cooling pump like a 655 of DDC. It's the heart of your loop so you want it to be very reliable.

 

[Gillbot]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Keep your loop linear if at all possible, no Y's. Get a good, water cooling pump like a 655 of DDC. It's the heart of your loop so you want it to be very reliable.

+1

I tried the pond pumps. They can work but the 12v pump is easier to deal with as opposed to the AC pond pump.

 

[Jessica69]

First, you've got two HOT gpu's you're trying to cool.....and they'll run a lot hotter when loaded than your cpu....so take that into consideration in assembling your loop.

Most would at XtremeSystems.org, one of the largest watercooling forums I've found, would probably recommend a dual loop and isolate your gpu's on their own loop separate from your cpu/nb.

But, to assemble any loop, a lot has to be considered..........

First, cpu block. There are blocks that are excellent cooling solutions but require a LOT of pressure to perform adequately.....like the EK Supreme. Other blocks require lower pressure to achieve almost the same cooling effect, and one of the current favorites at XS is the D-Tek Fuzion V2.....very low pressure drop and works almost as well as the Supreme, and much better than most others on the market.

Radiators.......again, pressure drop has to be considered.....some are worse than others. Some of the better in this aspect are the Thermochill line, Feser's new line, and Swiftech's MCR series.

Then, there is the question of how much noise can you stand to put up with achieving your cooling requirements. Radiators that have a higher fin-per-inch density, such as the Black Ice Pros and other Black Ice rads, require higher CFM fans to effectively push through the resistance the higher fin-per-inch density those rads have, which equates to more noise generation.

Lower FPI rads, on the other hand....like Thermochill (TC hereafter), Feser, and to a lesser extent Swiftech's MCR rads, can use lower CFM fans to achieve the same effective cooling capacity.

Then there is the question of whether you're mounting all of it internally or putting the rad external to the case. If internal mounting the rad(s), will they fit?

In the end, TC's and MCR's are the two a lot of people recommend......MCR's for value, TC's for much better cooling at lower CFM fan speeds. Feser's new rads are pretty much the equal or slightly better than TC rads, but at a much higher retail price.


The pump......Swiftech, and other brands like Danger Den, rebrand the Laing D5 pump.....Swiftech calls it the 655, forget what DD calls their rebranding. Another Laing pump a lot use is the DDC 3.2. Both pumps have their strong and weak points. Research and decide on space you have to dedicate to pump, etc. Again, XS is a great place to get opinions.....if you can weed out the fanbois.

As for gpu blocks.....EK makes some of the current favs for full coverage gpu blocks, but aren't cheap at $100 per block. Another option is to cool the gpu only and use RAM sinks on the memory/voltage chips on the cards. But you have to ensure you have active cooling, in the form of fan(s) blowing across the card(s) to cool the RAM, etc. But the gpu only blocks are MUCH cheaper than full cover blocks.....you can assemble a pair for around the price of one full cover blocks.

And also remember, every block you add to a loop exacts a pressure drop penalty.......

http://www.martinsliquidlab.com/ One of the few sites on the 'net doing excellent testing of water cooling products.....and Martin has kindly produced a flow rate estimator in XLS format.....gives a clue as to what will happen to your flow with adding blocks, rads, tubing sizes, etc. to your loop.


Where to buy?

http://www.petrastechshop.com/ One of the absolute favorites around.....the BEST in customer service without a doubt!

http://www.frozencpu.com/ Big selection, but probably one of the most expensive places to buy.

http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/ Great place to buy from, excellent customer service, probably second only to Petra's

http://www.performance-pcs.com...ex.php?main_page=index Good place to buy, lots of selection.....have heard of people having cust. service problems while some have great experiences....not cheap, though......

http://www.jab-tech.com LOTS of fans.....great prices on stuff, fast shipping

Don't forget Newegg, esp. for Swiftech products......but they're OOS a lot......but NE's prices on Swiftech product are some of the best.



Go to Xtremesystems.org and read, read, read!!! http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/index.php

 

[HardWarrior]

Again, XS is a great place to get opinions.....if you can weed out the fanbois.

OT for a second:

Fanboys aren't the problem at XS. IMO, it's the abusive know-it-alls and groupies who don't seem to remember what it's like to be new, and secondarily the lack of moderation of these same individuals. Places like this are generally a LOT kinder to people just starting out.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: Gillbot

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Keep your loop linear if at all possible, no Y's. Get a good, water cooling pump like a 655 of DDC. It's the heart of your loop so you want it to be very reliable.

+1

I tried the pond pumps. They can work but the 12v pump is easier to deal with as opposed to the AC pond pump.

Yup! The only pond-style pump I've used for water coolig was an eheim. It was a tank but it put out so mucb EMI that I had to keep it way back from things like sound cards. I've heard that the ones that are sold for water cooling now are very shielded. I doubt I'd go back, though. My DDC's kick arse! :thumbsup:

 

[Bleeding Jawa]

As I had mentioned, the only part that I have actually ordered was a pump, simply because I got a good deal on it. I have a MCP655 on its way. That said, does this particular pump have enough power to keep 4 waterblocks properly fed? If I need a more powerful pump, I can go that way, or if I need two, so be it, but I wouldn't know myself. I have played with Martin's estimator, but I can't say that I necessarily understand everything well enough to make an intelligent estimation.

Similarly, with the radiator...let's say I went with a high-end 360mm Feser radiator (preferably with low-noise fans): Is that going to be good enough to cool down all 4 waterblocks? If I went with two loops, I couldn't afford to spend $300 on two rads, so I would have to use something more economical. Is it better to go with one really good one, or two decent ones? One poster asked about space...as I mentioned, I can mount outside the case, so I am not too worried about it as long as I am not using super-loud fans.

I am assuming that when people mention dual loops, you mean two completely separated loops, right?
ie Loop#1 = Pump>CPU>NB>Radiator>back to pump
Loop #2 = Pump#2>GPU1>GPU2>Radiator>back to pump#2
(forgive any obvious mis-ordering of components...I'll get that figured out when I get closer)

 

[HardWarrior]

The idea with the flow estimator is to, of course, tell you how much flow to expect bassed on the collective restriction of your blocks. Ideally it should be 1-1.5GPM. The graph on the right tells you this.

Off the top of my head, no, a 120.3 with anything less than very powerful fans won't do it. We're talking maybe 600+ watts at full tilt and that's reaching the upper limit of a 120.3. Add a 120.1 to your loop, with a 120.3, you'll be fine.

Yes, in most cases it means two independent loops. I've seen some rigs where both loops share a res, though.

 

[Jessica69]

Since you mention mounting outside the case, Martin.....of the flow estimator......did a very interesting mounting of two radiators on a case. It's in the XS watercooling case gallery. Ought to look at it.....nicely done and unique arrangement. In essence, he mounted them vertically along the rear of the case, sort of like wings aligned the back edge of the case using brackets.

Here's a thread of Martin's that kind of shows what I'm talking about.... http://www.xtremesystems.org/f...howthread.php?t=172185

Two loops implies completely separate loops......even sharing a reservoir essentially makes it a one loop run, even using dual pumps.

My suggestion......either two radiators like a pair of MCR's, a MCR-320 and an MCR-220, with the MCR-220 just after your cpu/nb and then the MCR-320 after the gpu's. Neither MCR will be enough to handle the heat output you'll have from all your blocks.

OR....save another week or two and invest in a Feser 480. While very expensive, as Martin has said, it can handle over 500W of heat very well with commonly used fans of the 45-70CFM range, which are easy enough to find and are not noisy at all (like the Yate-Loon mediums or high speed---or S-Flex "F" or "G" fans for example). And a radiator is one piece of watercooling equipment you won't be constantly replacing....so is one place to make an investment in the best you can afford. Cooling blocks come and go.....radiators are usually not here and gone.

I'm using a TC 120.3, but only because an idiot at MicroCenter mispriced one when the store was repricing their MCR-320 rads and marked this particular TC with an MCR-320 price sticker. Not that I'm usually dishonest, but put a good price on something I've been looking at, and I'll snatch it up. Prior to that and I was using MCR's.

There really isn't any proper order to a loop except you HAVE to put the reservoir, if you use one, just before the pump.....that's about the only hard and fast rule. Otherwise, loop it any way you'd like. If it's been thought of, it's probably been done.

You've got a very good pump.....get the best rad you can.....then decide on your blocks. Even the worst cpu block performs close to the best.....and you'll see people dumping older versions of blocks just to have the latest and greatest, just to get one degree C more drop in temps. So keep your eyes out for used blocks, like a last gen D-Tek Fuzion.

My setup is: Swiftech MicroRes > Laing DDC2 (yes, a DDC2, not the 3.2) with an XSPC top > TC 120.3 > D-Tek Fuzion on cpu > MCR-120 rad > EK S-Max NB block > reservoir

I had a 3870 with an EK full cover block after the MCR rad, but the card crapped out just as the 4850's were released, so that's what I have sitting in there now....but not WC'd at present....waiting for the 4870X2 cards to hit before deciding to either Crossfire two 4850's or go with one 4870X2. Then I'll put block(s) on the card(s) I then have.


Good luck! It can be confusing, but can be very rewarding in the end.

 

[Bleeding Jawa]

It sounds like people are leaning toward two loops. If I go this direction, I am thinking of building sort of a base-station to fit under my case (I would bolt the case to it and drill a couple hole in the bottom for tubing and wires. I figure I could easily place a triple rad (maybe even squeeze quads) on each side, running the length of the case, then perhaps place a single 120mm fan on each end of the base sucking air in. So basically, my case would look like it's sitting on top of 8 fans. I might even be able to fit two pumps inside of the base station. Of course, now I am getting more and more expensive, but the creative side of these projects is always fun.

 

[Gillbot]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: Gillbot

Originally posted by: HardWarrior
Keep your loop linear if at all possible, no Y's. Get a good, water cooling pump like a 655 of DDC. It's the heart of your loop so you want it to be very reliable.

+1

I tried the pond pumps. They can work but the 12v pump is easier to deal with as opposed to the AC pond pump.

Yup! The only pond-style pump I've used for water coolig was an eheim. It was a tank but it put out so mucb EMI that I had to keep it way back from things like sound cards. I've heard that the ones that are sold for water cooling now are very shielded. I doubt I'd go back, though. My DDC's kick arse! :thumbsup:

They don't really need shielded so much as they are DC pumps. It's the AC that causes excess noise usually.

I didn't even mention the fact that you get heat soak if you use a submersible pump also.

 

[Sylvanas]

Bleeding Jawa

As I had mentioned, the only part that I have actually ordered was a pump, simply because I got a good deal on it. I have a MCP655 on its way. That said, does this particular pump have enough power to keep 4 waterblocks properly fed? If I need a more powerful pump, I can go that way, or if I need two, so be it, but I wouldn't know myself. I have played with Martin's estimator, but I can't say that I necessarily understand everything well enough to make an intelligent estimation.

4 blocks is pushing it and it would not make sense to go this way, just a little too much heat and restriction for one loop- the pump you select is a fine pump don't worry about that.

Similarly, with the radiator...let's say I went with a high-end 360mm Feser radiator (preferably with low-noise fans): Is that going to be good enough to cool down all 4 waterblocks? If I went with two loops, I couldn't afford to spend $300 on two rads, so I would have to use something more economical. Is it better to go with one really good one, or two decent ones? One poster asked about space...as I mentioned, I can mount outside the case, so I am not too worried about it as long as I am not using super-loud fans.

Well, for starters I would go with the Thermochill PA 120.3 over a feaser if you wanted to go all out- the TC is generally cheaper and they perform about the same.

In this case it would be better to go with two loops on not such a high end rad. I would suggest a PA 120.2 and a MCR320 which would work out to about $170 USD from Petras you can still go cheaper than that if you want, but what is your budget for rads alone? Nonetheless two loops will provide the best performance and it doesn't have to break the bank.

I am assuming that when people mention dual loops, you mean two completely separated loops, right?

Yep, For your situation I would think CPU and NB on Loop 1 and the two GPUs on Loop 2. This is what I have in my comp atm and its flawless.

 

[WoodButcher]

Keep in mind full cover vid blocks while effective are more expensive and will not migrate to a new card if you upgrade hardware.

 

[Bleeding Jawa]

Yep, I had noted that above. Unless someone releases a fairly inexpensive full-cover soon(doubtful), I plan on going with a universal gpu-block and some ramsinks.