help me choose between a velociraptor and a SSD

[PUN]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: rarebear
You can do 0Raid with two WD SATA HDDs for about $150 and blow both of your options away..

If your mobo supports raid if not buy a new mobo for $100 and two Sata HDDs for $150 and your still ahead on cost and performance.....

0raid just (theoretically) doubles the speed of the drive you now use, so no it will not blow both options away... you will need to raid0a whole lot more than just 2 drives to get vertex or intel SSD performance

raid-0 improves bandwidth, but makes latency slightly worse (controller overhead).

No amount of spindle-drives will ever close the gap to an Intel or Vertex SSD when it comes to latency.

If the price difference is negligible, would you recommend vertex or intel?

 

[alcoholbob]

Depends on the benchmark, but the Intel X25-M will typically win in every test against the 120G Vertex other than sequential writes. In CrystalDisk mark it gives loses in 4k random reads, although in HD Tune 3.5 4k random reads are the same.

I would give the edge to Intel performance wise, although you are looking at a price increase of $0.65/GB.

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: PUN

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: rarebear
You can do 0Raid with two WD SATA HDDs for about $150 and blow both of your options away..

If your mobo supports raid if not buy a new mobo for $100 and two Sata HDDs for $150 and your still ahead on cost and performance.....

0raid just (theoretically) doubles the speed of the drive you now use, so no it will not blow both options away... you will need to raid0a whole lot more than just 2 drives to get vertex or intel SSD performance

raid-0 improves bandwidth, but makes latency slightly worse (controller overhead).

No amount of spindle-drives will ever close the gap to an Intel or Vertex SSD when it comes to latency.

If the price difference is negligible, would you recommend vertex or intel?

If as you the say the $-delta were insignificant I'd go with Intel for no other reason than build quality and support. I know Intel engineers and I know the depths of the procedures they went to for ensuring their write amplification and SSD lifetime/reliability was not sacrificed. (as an engineer I appreciate it, not as a geek but from a viewpoint of confidence, I'm convinced from what I know that those guys absolutely know what they are doing)

I'm not equally convinced of OCZ's reliability and verification process. It could be equal or superior to Intel's, but they haven't made much attempts to educate the consumer that this is true for all I know.

Having said that, that's the only reason I'd go Intel if they were priced nearly the same. As it stands now, at the current prices, I'd personally buy multiple 30GB vertexes and raid-0 them together to whatever extent my budget allowed and I'd just stick with my existing backup routine that I use for raid-0 now.

The perceived (by me) quality delta between Intel and OCZ at this time isn't worth the reality of the price premium between the two for my specific situation. Everyone is in a different situation though.

 

[PUN]

I think I'll jump on GSkill 128GB. I don't think I'll RAID them, and I need to space to load all the applications. I know you are not suppose to defrag these drives. What is the best way to speed up these drives once it gets clogged up? Should I backup right after the OS and App installation and restore them when I need to?

I just recieved 10% off entire order from newegg...plan on using it for GSkill $319 + IcyDock $17 = $336 -10% = $302 - $10 Rebate = $292 shipped.

 

[Zap]

Originally posted by: n7
A good SSD like the Intel/Kingston or Vertex/Falcon will blow away the VR like no tomorrow.

There are others using (now or soon) the Indilinx controller. The Super Talent UltraDrive ME has been available for almost as long as the Vertex, and Patriot will be coming out with their version. There are likely others as well.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Idontcare

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: rarebear
You can do 0Raid with two WD SATA HDDs for about $150 and blow both of your options away..

If your mobo supports raid if not buy a new mobo for $100 and two Sata HDDs for $150 and your still ahead on cost and performance.....

0raid just (theoretically) doubles the speed of the drive you now use, so no it will not blow both options away... you will need to raid0a whole lot more than just 2 drives to get vertex or intel SSD performance

raid-0 improves bandwidth, but makes latency slightly worse (controller overhead).

No amount of spindle-drives will ever close the gap to an Intel or Vertex SSD when it comes to latency.

hence the theoretical part, there are other issues that can prevent it from being a straight out multiplications of the drives times base speed of one drive.

I was saying that even if you have an ideal raid0 setup it still wouldn't be better... but those are not as clear cut as some might things...

And with TRIM coming up, you are going to only have TRIM on non raided drives, so that is a big boost to speed there and a blow against raid.

 

[rarebear]

Opps I stand corrected as most times...

Got my Purple and Orange Squares mixed up in this Artical

It does sequential writes and random reads faster though
Two out of Four aint bad...

 

[ncage]

This is why its so hard to make a decision...no one agrees . Some people say go with the SSD because the the response time of the SSDs will make the world of difference others say they can't notice that big of a difference between them.....so after much googling and contemplation i decided to go with the VR 300GB for two primary reasons:

1) SSDs are known to have limited write capabilities. The technology is kind of new so i want to give it some more time to mature before i make the jump i think. Like i believe the OCZ Vertex drives are 2 year warranty. I'm sure with all the verification that intel does on everything they create that they would be very reliable but i'm not willing to shell out that kind of money right now. WD VR is a enterprise type drive with 5 year warranty so i'm have a lot of faith in the VR. I'm much more concerned with the reliability of SSD than i am the VR.

2) More than one person has stated that that the VR & SSD are close in performance. That along with the price premium you pay for a SSD made me reconsider. Hopefully i will notice a big difference between the VR and my 750GB WD 7200rpm drive.

That being said i do run Vista x64 Ultimate. I already have 8GB of RAM. Don't get my wrong my system isn't slow by an means but sometimes Visual Studio can be a dog especially when you have a big project and CodeRush & Resharper running. If i find that this makes that big of a difference i'm hoping i can talk my CIO at work into some of these drives for all our developers .

I think maybe for my labtop a SSD would be a welcome addition in the future since i can't get a VR for it


Ncage

 

[taltamir]

no one agrees

actually, Every single professional reviewer agrees. You would not find ONE SINGLE ARTICLE that says that any spindle drive is faster than a vertex or an intel X25. NOT ONE.

actually, lets make this a challenge... come on people... show me ONE professional review that says a raptor is in ANY WAY faster than a vertex or intel X25 SSD.

 

[Massive Overkill]

I'm using a GSkill Titan 128 gig drive. I also have a 1 TB Seagate drive for storage. I have my OS and any programs/games that I want to run fast on my SSD. My Documents, user.dat, IE temp file, swap file.............basically the majority of files that are written to, get put on my 1TB drive.

I have no stuttering whatsoever, I'm using Vista64 Ultimate.

The majority of desktop users who buy an SSD are going to have a seperate conventional spinning disk hard drive as their primary storage.

You don't have to buy the super-high end SSD's if you are willing to follow the above procedures which eliminates the small-random file write/read problem. I'd also like to add that the above procedure will also help your SSD last longer whether it be a cheapie, or more expensive unit because writes are what wear an SSD out, not reads.

If you're lazy, or own a laptop and don't want to go through the tweaking and above setup and just want to plug and play, install your OS and be done with it, then get the high-priced SSD's. When Windows7 is released, I'm willing to bet the built-in features supporting SSD's will further mitigate the small random file write/reads.

I plan on getting an Falcon or Vertex eventually and when I do I still plan on setting it up the way I have it in the first paragraph.

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: Zap
There are others using (now or soon) the Indilinx controller. The Super Talent UltraDrive ME has been available for almost as long as the Vertex, and Patriot will be coming out with their version. There are likely others as well.

:thumbsup:

 

[ncage]

Originally posted by: taltamir

no one agrees

actually, Every single professional reviewer agrees. You would not find ONE SINGLE ARTICLE that says that any spindle drive is faster than a vertex or an intel X25. NOT ONE.

actually, lets make this a challenge... come on people... show me ONE professional review that says a raptor is in ANY WAY faster than a vertex or intel X25 SSD.

Umm i didn't mean the reviews don't say they are faster. Benchmarks do not equal noticeable real world differences. Thats what matters anyways...am i right? While how fast your system boots is a good metric there are many more when you use your computer after it boots up that it doesn't account for. Benchmarks like HDTach really don't tell me anything to be honest.

There was another problem also. I talked myself into almost buying a Corsair 120GB unit for $300 but a lot of reviews / people were telling me it wasn't much faster than a VR. The real step up was a Vertex and i'm unwilling to spend another $70-80. Most of the comments i gave the most merit here and elsewhere were people that had both SSDs and VR. Most of them said yes SSD is faster but not THAT much faster (overall feeling of your system). Thats something a benchmark will never tell me .

Ncage

 

[Idontcare]

Originally posted by: ncage
Most of them said yes SSD is faster but not THAT much faster (overall feeling of your system). Thats something a benchmark will never tell me .

Ncage

The benchmark of relevance for that is 4KB random reads and writes.

Anand wrote a couple articles that touched on this.

 

[allthatisman]

Honestly... I went from a Gskill Titan 128, to a 150 gb VR and if I sat you down in front of my machine you could barely tell the difference in games and general operation of the computer. Benches...well they say what they say, but I think the VR is a damn good alternative for someone wanting a fast drive that doesn't have the growing pains of an SSD. I would only recommend an SSD if you like to reinstall Windows every couple months or so... after 2 months I started developing very, very odd issues with my SSD. Granted operating systems are not designed to utilize these drives, but unless you have cash to burn, which few people seem to have these days, why take the risk for MILLISECONDS...it is a very fast drive and almost silent, IMO its the best price/performance out there. I am VERY satisfied with my VR, and after 2 months has been problem free, no tweaks required

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: ncage

Originally posted by: taltamir

no one agrees

actually, Every single professional reviewer agrees. You would not find ONE SINGLE ARTICLE that says that any spindle drive is faster than a vertex or an intel X25. NOT ONE.

actually, lets make this a challenge... come on people... show me ONE professional review that says a raptor is in ANY WAY faster than a vertex or intel X25 SSD.

Umm i didn't mean the reviews don't say they are faster. Benchmarks do not equal noticeable real world differences. Thats what matters anyways...am i right? While how fast your system boots is a good metric there are many more when you use your computer after it boots up that it doesn't account for. Benchmarks like HDTach really don't tell me anything to be honest.

There was another problem also. I talked myself into almost buying a Corsair 120GB unit for $300 but a lot of reviews / people were telling me it wasn't much faster than a VR. The real step up was a Vertex and i'm unwilling to spend another $70-80. Most of the comments i gave the most merit here and elsewhere were people that had both SSDs and VR. Most of them said yes SSD is faster but not THAT much faster (overall feeling of your system). Thats something a benchmark will never tell me .

Ncage

all the reviewers also do "real world" tests not just canned benchmarks, and they use the drives and write on their experiences, and they all say its faster. You are trying to create disagreement where there is NONE, and I do mean NONE.
Its like saying "people disagree on weather a shotgun shot can blow up stuff better than a tank shell", no they don't, there is zero disagreement.

 

[Hacp]

Originally posted by: allthatisman
Honestly... I went from a Gskill Titan 128, to a 150 gb VR and if I sat you down in front of my machine you could barely tell the difference in games and general operation of the computer. Benches...well they say what they say, but I think the VR is a damn good alternative for someone wanting a fast drive that doesn't have the growing pains of an SSD. I would only recommend an SSD if you like to reinstall Windows every couple months or so... after 2 months I started developing very, very odd issues with my SSD. Granted operating systems are not designed to utilize these drives, but unless you have cash to burn, which few people seem to have these days, why take the risk for MILLISECONDS...it is a very fast drive and almost silent, IMO its the best price/performance out there. I am VERY satisfied with my VR, and after 2 months has been problem free, no tweaks required

Well, maybe thats cause you were using the Jmicron

 

[IBDoomed]

I have to agree with taltamir. I've been deploying intel ssd's to faculty for months and the only comments I get back are "wow this is crazy fast" and some of them had VR's before that.

That said, there are crap ssd's out there just like there's a crap version of everything else. VR's are the cream of the platter world so it's not fair to compare it to a crap ssd.

 

[Old Hippie]

Originally posted by: IBDoomed
I have to agree with taltamir. I've been deploying intel ssd's to faculty for months and the only comments I get back are "wow this is crazy fast" and some of them had VR's before that.

That said, there are crap ssd's out there just like there's a crap version of everything else. VR's are the cream of the platter world so it's not fair to compare it to a crap ssd.

They may have said the same thing with a fresh install on any drive or with a JMicron based SSD.

I went from the worst (G.Skill 128 Titan) to supposedly the second best (Intel X25 80GB) and there's little real-world difference to me.

I'm hoping I paid a premium for a drive that will remain within specs for a coupla years.

 

[dawza]

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: ncage

Originally posted by: taltamir

no one agrees

actually, Every single professional reviewer agrees. You would not find ONE SINGLE ARTICLE that says that any spindle drive is faster than a vertex or an intel X25. NOT ONE.

actually, lets make this a challenge... come on people... show me ONE professional review that says a raptor is in ANY WAY faster than a vertex or intel X25 SSD.

Umm i didn't mean the reviews don't say they are faster. Benchmarks do not equal noticeable real world differences. Thats what matters anyways...am i right? While how fast your system boots is a good metric there are many more when you use your computer after it boots up that it doesn't account for. Benchmarks like HDTach really don't tell me anything to be honest.

There was another problem also. I talked myself into almost buying a Corsair 120GB unit for $300 but a lot of reviews / people were telling me it wasn't much faster than a VR. The real step up was a Vertex and i'm unwilling to spend another $70-80. Most of the comments i gave the most merit here and elsewhere were people that had both SSDs and VR. Most of them said yes SSD is faster but not THAT much faster (overall feeling of your system). Thats something a benchmark will never tell me .

Ncage

all the reviewers also do "real world" tests not just canned benchmarks, and they use the drives and write on their experiences, and they all say its faster. You are trying to create disagreement where there is NONE, and I do mean NONE.
Its like saying "people disagree on weather a shotgun shot can blow up stuff better than a tank shell", no they don't, there is zero disagreement.

So....those of us in this thread who also used the drives, did not see much difference (between the VR and Vertex/Intel) and wrote about our experiences should be disregarded because we are not "professional reviewers?"

Edit: Quite the contrary to your last statement, I do believe people would disagree as to whether a tank shell would be the projectile of choice (vs a shotshell) for blowing up...say...a clay pigeon.

 

[Old Hippie]

So....those of us in this thread who also used the drives, did not see much difference (between the VR and Vertex/Intel) and wrote about our experiences should be disregarded because we are not "professional reviewers?"

Guess not.

Specs mean alot when you have no hands-on experience.

 

[terentenet]

Originally posted by: dawza
So....those of us in this thread who also used the drives, did not see much difference (between the VR and Vertex/Intel) and wrote about our experiences should be disregarded because we are not "professional reviewers?"

Edit: Quite the contrary to your last statement, I do believe people would disagree as to whether a tank shell would be the projectile of choice (vs a shotshell) for blowing up...say...a clay pigeon.

I saw quite the opposite. I use a Raptor X RAID0 array on a daily basis and I'm used to it's speed, and we can agree a Raptor RAID0 array is no slouch in terms of speed.
I sat 10 minutes on a crappy SSD (JMicron based Mushkin 64GB SSD), that was benched like mad, but was properly aligned and formatted and I saw the light.
I have a fresh install of Windows 7 RC on my machine, it boots very fast compared to the old Vista installation.
That SSD had a Vista x64 installation, was full of programs, music and movies (less than 15Gb free space if I remember correctly) and still booted way faster than my RAID0 array.
After entering the password on the Vista logon, on the Raptors I'd have to wait 10-15 seconds until the desktop was fully loaded and ready to launch new programs (and I don't have any startup programs, just Razer, Logitech Setpoint, EVGA Precision and a small utility to switch sound cards).
The SSD had more to load upon startup, including the Yahoo Messenger, and it still managed to get the desktop ready in less than 5 seconds.
If that's not a difference, I don't know what is.

 

[MadAd]

If you are prepared to futz to get the best performance, then its SSD all the way ..... if you simply want it to work, stick with raptors for now

 

[sxr7171]

It works, just stick with Intel for now. You'll be fine.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: dawza

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: ncage

Originally posted by: taltamir

no one agrees

actually, Every single professional reviewer agrees. You would not find ONE SINGLE ARTICLE that says that any spindle drive is faster than a vertex or an intel X25. NOT ONE.

actually, lets make this a challenge... come on people... show me ONE professional review that says a raptor is in ANY WAY faster than a vertex or intel X25 SSD.

Umm i didn't mean the reviews don't say they are faster. Benchmarks do not equal noticeable real world differences. Thats what matters anyways...am i right? While how fast your system boots is a good metric there are many more when you use your computer after it boots up that it doesn't account for. Benchmarks like HDTach really don't tell me anything to be honest.

There was another problem also. I talked myself into almost buying a Corsair 120GB unit for $300 but a lot of reviews / people were telling me it wasn't much faster than a VR. The real step up was a Vertex and i'm unwilling to spend another $70-80. Most of the comments i gave the most merit here and elsewhere were people that had both SSDs and VR. Most of them said yes SSD is faster but not THAT much faster (overall feeling of your system). Thats something a benchmark will never tell me .

Ncage

all the reviewers also do "real world" tests not just canned benchmarks, and they use the drives and write on their experiences, and they all say its faster. You are trying to create disagreement where there is NONE, and I do mean NONE.
Its like saying "people disagree on weather a shotgun shot can blow up stuff better than a tank shell", no they don't, there is zero disagreement.

So....those of us in this thread who also used the drives, did not see much difference (between the VR and Vertex/Intel) and wrote about our experiences should be disregarded because we are not "professional reviewers?"

Edit: Quite the contrary to your last statement, I do believe people would disagree as to whether a tank shell would be the projectile of choice (vs a shotshell) for blowing up...say...a clay pigeon.

You are saying "I can't see the difference", I was saying that nobody claims that the "Velociraptor is faster".

I assure you that if you are shooting a grape... while looking at it using binoculars from a mile away. you will see no difference between a shotgun and a tank shell... but you wouldn't be saying that the tank shell does LESS damage than the shotgun shell...

Show me someone who said that the VR is FASTER than the intel/vertex...

Also, the professionals are all in agreement... some "guy" on some forum who is going against what everyone else is saying could be the only voice of truth out there... or they could have a completely different issue that they are attributing to an SSD incorrectly...

For example: someone posted a thread here in anandtech about his intel SSD blue screening all the time... every since he put it in... oh and replaced the ram, but it COULDN'T be the ram he said... well memtest proved that it WAS the ram).

The VR is the shotgun, the intel/vertex is the tank shell... you might not NEED a tank shell... both might be able to vaporize your workload... but don't go saying that the shotgun creates a bigger explosion.

 

[Old Hippie]

for blowing up...say...a clay pigeon.

I assure you that if you are shooting a grape...

Now we're comparing pigeons and grapes....no wonder we can't agree on anything!


Good luck with your VR, ncage!